Phoenix from the flames - Porsche Boxster with an Audi 2.7T
Discussion
The car has been running well, I made some changes to the breather set-up and it's no longer steamy from the oil cap. I went through a period of boost pipes popping off, methanol pipes coming off, injector duty cycle being too high on transitions, all small little things but it was getting frustrating. That's all sorted, not had any issues for a while other than the boost control could do with some work (which means occasional over boost warnings). I've been making some progress, it's not far off but there's room for improvement so I'm booked in for a few hours on the rolling road on Wednesday afternoon. I'm going to a different place this time, Indigo GT got rid of their dyno so I'm going to Got Boost in Bridgend.
The main aim will be get the boost control dialled in. I'm interested in the power figures. Last time it made 470bhp on super unleaded and 530bhp with the water/methanol. I was a bit disappointed with that. It turned out I had the VVT cam shaft adjusters on the wrong banks which meant they were moving the wrong way and I ended up with a stretched cambelt so the timing was off. I'd like to think it's going to do a bit more this time around.
I've replaced the centre lock style wheel caps with a more traditional style cap. I like it, although it feels like a temporary measure but if I can't buy replacement red rings from OZ it's probably going to be permanent.
IMG_20230519_092440771_HDR
The main aim will be get the boost control dialled in. I'm interested in the power figures. Last time it made 470bhp on super unleaded and 530bhp with the water/methanol. I was a bit disappointed with that. It turned out I had the VVT cam shaft adjusters on the wrong banks which meant they were moving the wrong way and I ended up with a stretched cambelt so the timing was off. I'd like to think it's going to do a bit more this time around.
I've replaced the centre lock style wheel caps with a more traditional style cap. I like it, although it feels like a temporary measure but if I can't buy replacement red rings from OZ it's probably going to be permanent.
IMG_20230519_092440771_HDRdobbo_ said:
Could you get some rings 3d printed by someone? I know there are sites that you can commission that sort of work and likely it would be much cheaper.
Good idea, I'll look into that.therealsamdailly said:
Looks fantastic in that last picture. I like the clean look
Thanks, I'm really happy with it looks now. I'm still undecided on the go faster stripe down the side. The company I asked about making a custom decal said they'd knock something up and get back to me, that was while ago so I guess they can't be arsed. I did just order the same Porsche decal that I removed previously but that was 2 weeks ago. I do like it without anything but I'm used to how it was before. Not sure what to do but I'm happy either way. I was feeling quite confident about tomorrows dyno trip so the car decided to cut me down to size. While I was topping up the water/methanol mixture I decided to remove the cap from the charge cooler to see the level. The system stays under pressure (not sure if this is ideal or not?), as the pressure released I noticed a coolant leak started on one of the charge coolers. With the cap on it's a slow dribble, with the cap off it's shooting out. It's got a tiny pin hole. The jubilee clamp on a power steering line had been touching and had worn through it.
I needed a quick fix. I used some leak sealer designed for central heating that I had in the cupboard. Looking at the temperature ranges and pressures it should be up to the job. It did stop the leak. I then put some rubber hose over it and a jubilee clamp to apply some pressure where the hole is and also protect it from rubbing. I've not run the charge cooler pump to pressurise the system as I wanted to leave it as long as possible to cure fully. I'll find out tomorrow if this repair holds up. I expect it'll be fine.
Yes, once the pump runs the system builds up pressure and there's no vent so the pressure stays in the system. I log water temperature before and after the charge coolers, they put around 25c into into the coolant during a pull so they work reasonably well. If I get a chance, on the dyno today I'll remove the cap for a run and see if there is a difference in IAT's and coolant temp.
Edited by Escy on Wednesday 31st May 08:03
Escy said:
dobbo_ said:
Could you get some rings 3d printed by someone? I know there are sites that you can commission that sort of work and likely it would be much cheaper.
Good idea, I'll look into that.Powder coat?
How about a sticker or red wrap?
Surely there are options.
The dyno proved to be a disappointment yet again. There's a pattern, high aspirations, crushed. The car is mechanically where it needs to be, it performed fine, I probably knocked out 50 runs no problems and I thought the cooling setup at the dyno wasn't great so it did well in that regard.
I thought I wouldn't need that long on the dyno as it isn't far away, I severely under estimated that. The first run the car span the tyres, I've got a few maps so we started off on the lower boost ones and worked up. This proved to be a mistake (my fault), we made some good progress but wasted too much time on stuff that ultimately isn't that important. What I really wanted for the dyno day was to get my boost control perfected and then turn it up to see what it'll make. Should have got straight into it.
As it's an ECU they aren't familiar with I thought I'd be advising them with the software which is how it was when I went to Indigo GT. He did all the tuning, I helped him navigate around the various menus. This time, I did everything myself with some input here and there.
When I showed a log of the PID control loop for the boost solenoid and asked for an opinion on it I was left with the impression they didn't have a clue what I was asking them. I'd expect that with the sort of place chucking re-map files on cars but they seem to specialise in tuning race cars.
The runs were plagued by seemingly random ignition cuts, we'd make a pull, it'd be fine, then we'd make another pull with a slight change to something unrelated (like fuelling) and it'd have the ignition cut. It got to the point where we were going backwards, taking boost and timing out of it. By the end of the day it got to the point where he just wanted 2 clean runs back to back so he could send me on my way.
When I got home and the pressure was off, I looked through all the variables on the log, the cause was a shift cut for flat foot shifting. That was a bit of a facepalm moment, something so simple to switch off caused hours wasted. I might have thought a professional tuner might have picked something like that up but it felt like it was a bit all on me to come up with the answers. I think he must have been resting his foot on the clutch.
They thought it made good power and were happy with it, I wasn't. It made 414bhp at the wheels, with the correction it's 537bhp at the flywheel. The graph looks a bit odd right at the top end, they just wanted it off the dyno at this point, it was nearly 6pm so it's fair enough. It made 440bhp at the wheels about an hour before and I was still short of boost I planned to run and we hadn't looked at the ignition timing. It'll be in the ball park for what I expect eventually (high 500's). The torque is well down on what it made last time it was on the dyno, it did 530bhp and 540ft/lb last time (with the timing all over the place due to a slack cambelt).
The proof is in the driving and I was left disappointed there also. The way the boost comes in more gradual, it really shows on the street and not in a good way, I'm used to punch in the guts torque low down, and I love that. I sure it's probably faster now than it was before I came in but feels slower if that makes any sense, it's all top end power now. It feels very smooth, the way the power comes in. Some might prefer it, it's definitely easier on the engine and gearbox and probably easier to drive. It might be a nice map for track use as it feels quite progressive but it's not what I used to.
So to sum up, I feel like I ended up worse off than when I arrived. The £500 it cost me seems a waste of money but I gained some knowledge, like I've seen what AFR's the engine really likes from the way it picked up power on the dyno runs and I've built up some more confidence in what I'm doing.
From here on in, I'm going to tune it myself all on the road, a mate has offered to drive it so hopefully I'll make some decent progress compared to being on my own where I need to stop to see the logs and make changes, that takes ages. I'm looking forward to it.
Escy said:
The dyno proved to be a disappointment yet again. There's a pattern, high aspirations, crushed. The car is mechanically where it needs to be, it performed fine, I probably knocked out 50 runs no problems and I thought the cooling setup at the dyno wasn't great so it did well in that regard.
I thought I wouldn't need that long on the dyno as it isn't far away, I severely under estimated that. The first run the car span the tyres, I've got a few maps so we started off on the lower boost ones and worked up. This proved to be a mistake (my fault), we made some good progress but wasted too much time on stuff that ultimately isn't that important. What I really wanted for the dyno day was to get my boost control perfected and then turn it up to see what it'll make. Should have got straight into it.
As it's an ECU they aren't familiar with I thought I'd be advising them with the software which is how it was when I went to Indigo GT. He did all the tuning, I helped him navigate around the various menus. This time, I did everything myself with some input here and there.
When I showed a log of the PID control loop for the boost solenoid and asked for an opinion on it I was left with the impression they didn't have a clue what I was asking them. I'd expect that with the sort of place chucking re-map files on cars but they seem to specialise in tuning race cars.
The runs were plagued by seemingly random ignition cuts, we'd make a pull, it'd be fine, then we'd make another pull with a slight change to something unrelated (like fuelling) and it'd have the ignition cut. It got to the point where we were going backwards, taking boost and timing out of it. By the end of the day it got to the point where he just wanted 2 clean runs back to back so he could send me on my way.
When I got home and the pressure was off, I looked through all the variables on the log, the cause was a shift cut for flat foot shifting. That was a bit of a facepalm moment, something so simple to switch off caused hours wasted. I might have thought a professional tuner might have picked something like that up but it felt like it was a bit all on me to come up with the answers. I think he must have been resting his foot on the clutch.
They thought it made good power and were happy with it, I wasn't. It made 414bhp at the wheels, with the correction it's 537bhp at the flywheel. The graph looks a bit odd right at the top end, they just wanted it off the dyno at this point, it was nearly 6pm so it's fair enough. It made 440bhp at the wheels about an hour before and I was still short of boost I planned to run and we hadn't looked at the ignition timing. It'll be in the ball park for what I expect eventually (high 500's). The torque is well down on what it made last time it was on the dyno, it did 530bhp and 540ft/lb last time (with the timing all over the place due to a slack cambelt).
The proof is in the driving and I was left disappointed there also. The way the boost comes in more gradual, it really shows on the street and not in a good way, I'm used to punch in the guts torque low down, and I love that. I sure it's probably faster now than it was before I came in but feels slower if that makes any sense, it's all top end power now. It feels very smooth, the way the power comes in. Some might prefer it, it's definitely easier on the engine and gearbox and probably easier to drive. It might be a nice map for track use as it feels quite progressive but it's not what I used to.
So to sum up, I feel like I ended up worse off than when I arrived. The £500 it cost me seems a waste of money but I gained some knowledge, like I've seen what AFR's the engine really likes from the way it picked up power on the dyno runs and I've built up some more confidence in what I'm doing.
From here on in, I'm going to tune it myself all on the road, a mate has offered to drive it so hopefully I'll make some decent progress compared to being on my own where I need to stop to see the logs and make changes, that takes ages. I'm looking forward to it.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 1st June 21:30
All the Audi S/RS specialist tuners will only have knowledge on the OEM ECU. It's rare for people to put them on standalones. There's nothing fancy with the engine and there's no specific issues with anything, it's all working like it should.
GotBoost is a dodgy name but their workshop was full of race cars, mainly Ginetta's so I was reasonably confident they know what they are doing. They seemed nice enough and he put a shift in, we finished at 6pm. I don't want it to come across like I'm knocking them. I think maybe they were a bit less involved as I said the car was pretty much there. As they didn't know the ECU and I was only expecting to be a couple of hours they took a back seat, letting me run the show (which I didn't expect). Crossed wires maybe.
Where it went wrong is we needed to identify the cause of the ignition cut there and then. We kept getting overboost fault codes which was a bit of red herring, the boost would be fine so it wasn't making sense. It turns out the overboost protection is actually a fuel cut not an ignition cut so it was definately not that. It's looking a bit like we've ended up tuning around him occasionally resting his foot on the clutch. It's obviously too sensitive so I'm going to make changes there.
If everything is set-up and working fine all standalones are pretty easy to tune. I think what separates the best from the rest is fault finding which comes from hard earned experience. Stuff unexpected always happens on a dyno, you're only going to find out who really knows their onions when a problem appears. I thought Anthony at Indigo GT was really good in this regard, shame they sold their dyno as they are only around the corner from me.
I took a photo of the log showing the (at the time) unidentified ignition cut to Baldur (who makes the ECU). He replied saying shift cut limiter, he knew instantly which I guess is down to how it looks on the graph compared to other ignition cuts. I questioned how come it was the a shift cut when the log didn't show the clutch pedal had been pressed, the answer is because the ECU samples the the clutch pedal switch at 1000hz, the ECU records the log at 50hz so just isn't fast enough to pick it up. Baldur is the guy I really need tuning it. He recently came to the UK to tune some cars, wish I'd know at the time.
So from here on in the next best thing is to do it myself, if there's any issues that come up, Baldur always helps and I'm not on the clock getting stressed out. I don't think there will be any problems and I'm looking forward to it. I've done all the other stuff on the car myself.
GotBoost is a dodgy name but their workshop was full of race cars, mainly Ginetta's so I was reasonably confident they know what they are doing. They seemed nice enough and he put a shift in, we finished at 6pm. I don't want it to come across like I'm knocking them. I think maybe they were a bit less involved as I said the car was pretty much there. As they didn't know the ECU and I was only expecting to be a couple of hours they took a back seat, letting me run the show (which I didn't expect). Crossed wires maybe.
Where it went wrong is we needed to identify the cause of the ignition cut there and then. We kept getting overboost fault codes which was a bit of red herring, the boost would be fine so it wasn't making sense. It turns out the overboost protection is actually a fuel cut not an ignition cut so it was definately not that. It's looking a bit like we've ended up tuning around him occasionally resting his foot on the clutch. It's obviously too sensitive so I'm going to make changes there.
If everything is set-up and working fine all standalones are pretty easy to tune. I think what separates the best from the rest is fault finding which comes from hard earned experience. Stuff unexpected always happens on a dyno, you're only going to find out who really knows their onions when a problem appears. I thought Anthony at Indigo GT was really good in this regard, shame they sold their dyno as they are only around the corner from me.
I took a photo of the log showing the (at the time) unidentified ignition cut to Baldur (who makes the ECU). He replied saying shift cut limiter, he knew instantly which I guess is down to how it looks on the graph compared to other ignition cuts. I questioned how come it was the a shift cut when the log didn't show the clutch pedal had been pressed, the answer is because the ECU samples the the clutch pedal switch at 1000hz, the ECU records the log at 50hz so just isn't fast enough to pick it up. Baldur is the guy I really need tuning it. He recently came to the UK to tune some cars, wish I'd know at the time.
So from here on in the next best thing is to do it myself, if there's any issues that come up, Baldur always helps and I'm not on the clock getting stressed out. I don't think there will be any problems and I'm looking forward to it. I've done all the other stuff on the car myself.
Edited by Escy on Thursday 1st June 22:48
Am sure you're aware from your great knowledge on this stuff, but comparing Dyno figures from one Dyno to another is largely pointless. They can be so far out from one place to another. A mates kit car went on three differing dynos over a year just on power runs and had differences of 70 odd bhp on a 280ish bhp engine on the same map.
I now use a place with a hub pack Dyno for the Westfield as typically lightweight cars making big power/torque are a pain in the arse to eliminate wheel spin. The results are repeatable and usually way more accurate.
Shame it's not driving how you'd like though especially after investing in the Dyno time. Do you think you'll be able to hold the engine at certain points to carry out an accurate tune on the road? I would have thought it would be very tricky?
I now use a place with a hub pack Dyno for the Westfield as typically lightweight cars making big power/torque are a pain in the arse to eliminate wheel spin. The results are repeatable and usually way more accurate.
Shame it's not driving how you'd like though especially after investing in the Dyno time. Do you think you'll be able to hold the engine at certain points to carry out an accurate tune on the road? I would have thought it would be very tricky?
I won't be holding the engine in individual cells and tuning them on the fly. I'll make a pull to the redline then make changes based on the data in the logs. Then another pull to verify the changes. This is how it's been done at both the dyno's. I think there's too much heat build up on both the engine and the dyno to hold back an engine that's making decent power.
Sorry to hear about your issue with a Dyno, having listen to some of the HP Academy podcasts I am aware of the issues surrounding car tuning on Dynos and the varience in Dynos themselves.
I hope you wont be put off putting the car on the dyno again, especially those that can make the car work. when you put more load on the car you will expose the weaknesses sooner and therefore have a more reliable road car
I hope you wont be put off putting the car on the dyno again, especially those that can make the car work. when you put more load on the car you will expose the weaknesses sooner and therefore have a more reliable road car
mattdavies said:
I hope you wont be put off putting the car on the dyno again, especially those that can make the car work. when you put more load on the car you will expose the weaknesses sooner and therefore have a more reliable road car
I am put off going back to a dyno, purely financial. Over the course of this project (it's been going years and years) I've spent about £1500 on dyno time and feel like I've never had anything to show for it. It's not their fault, it's been things going wrong on the car (although this last time I'm not so sure), that's all ironed out at this point. My time spent at Indigo GT was useful as I picked up a lot of knowledge by watching and asking questions. We also moved the whole thing forward quite far, I've got a good base to build on and that was all sorted out while I was there last. It's s shame they sold their dyno.I can do the same thing on the road as I can on a dyno and it's not costing me £125 an hour. It takes ages on my own but I've got a mate happy to drive that will speed everything up. My main issue with road tuning is you want to be doing it in 4th gear which means you need to be hitting spicey speeds.
In some aspects the road is better than a dyno, I've had in the past boost control does one thing on a dyno and another on the road, it depends on how it's loaded. What I'll lose out on is the instant feedback of seeing the difference changes make. It might get to a point where adding boost and ignition timing see's no benefit in power, on a dyno you'd know instantly and take it back out. I'm not going to be too greedy, it feels rapid as it is.
The aim now is to get it all dialled in on the road, to the point where I'm 100% happy, there is nothing left to do then I'll just go back to a dyno where you get a few runs for a set amount and I'll just get some figures.
Durability wise I think I've done the hard yards now, it's all behaving like it should and putting up with a regular hammering.
toby-w8jtf said:
For a build like this I'd strongly suggest speaking with Rick @ Unicorn Motor Developments in Stockport who now specialises in Porsche tuning. He has a vast knowledge of the 2.7TT and wont shy away from tuning projects with engine conversions.
I'm not spending any more money going to anyone at this point. It's interesting though, I'm in a Whatsapp group where his reputation isn't great. I'm sure it's the same for them all, some people have good experiences and love them, others have bad experiences. Sometimes it'll be down to errors made by the tuner, other times it won't be their fault and they are blamed for things by people who might not fully understand stuff. Sorry to hear of the issues! - hey, you have now learnt more about it, and each step is a learning step!
I understand how you feel about the lack of immediate punch - old car, get to de-restriction sign, foot to the floor, lots of noise, lots of punch, gets moving, get the next bend in the road, foot off the loud pedal, carry on around the corner. - new car, get to the sign, foot to the floor, bit more noise, wait a minute, then when you get near the corner you have to slam on brakes cause you are going too fast for it.
Although slower, the old car was more fun to drive hard with the immediate punch.
I must ask - what map were they putting on the forklift visible by your car!
Edit - cummon - you know you want to! - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234950043769
(Thats a VERY cheap dyno on ebay, for future reference)
I understand how you feel about the lack of immediate punch - old car, get to de-restriction sign, foot to the floor, lots of noise, lots of punch, gets moving, get the next bend in the road, foot off the loud pedal, carry on around the corner. - new car, get to the sign, foot to the floor, bit more noise, wait a minute, then when you get near the corner you have to slam on brakes cause you are going too fast for it.
Although slower, the old car was more fun to drive hard with the immediate punch.
I must ask - what map were they putting on the forklift visible by your car!
Edit - cummon - you know you want to! - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234950043769
(Thats a VERY cheap dyno on ebay, for future reference)
Edited by Peanut Gallery on Friday 2nd June 11:35
I can imagine my neighbours would love me having a dyno.
Since the dyno day I changed the fuel pressure regulator back to the 4 bar version as I hit the 96% injector duty cycle limit once on the way back from the dyno. The injectors now flow at 844cc/min. I re-wired the clutch switch, there are 2, I swapped it to the other switch which is activated sooner on the pedal travel, before the clutch wire was linked to the starter relay (so you put your foot on the clutch before starting it), now it is on it's wire.
Tonight was the planned night for the tuning, the car got a hammering as you'd expect, not a single issue. My mate was driving, we got all the maps sorted out, I've got all my meaty torque back. It took a tank of fuel and about 3 hours. A few more changes to make, on gear changes I get a bit of a boost spike that gives me knock, on the lower boost settings the knock is in areas of the map which have the knock have no knock if I'm going through these cells on a higher boost setting during a pull. So I don't want to pull timing. I need to get that sorted but as a work around I just flat foot shift it, no knock then, just bangs and flames. Other than that the boost control is spot on.
I've got a map that's 2800mbar (26psi) on super unleaded, it pulls really well but the IAT's are 75c, the charge coolers can't keep up. I'm going to drop that boost down a bit to see if it improves things. The big boy map with the methanol is 3000mbar (29psi), the IAT's are 30c for the majority of the run peaking at 40c which is pretty impressive, I could maybe increase the flow rate on the methanol at the top end to bring the 40c down to 30c. The EGT's are also 100c lower with methanol, it's a game changer in my car. The difference is huge. It's definately making more power now than it was on the dyno. I'm really happy, problem free now and I can use it properly.
Since the dyno day I changed the fuel pressure regulator back to the 4 bar version as I hit the 96% injector duty cycle limit once on the way back from the dyno. The injectors now flow at 844cc/min. I re-wired the clutch switch, there are 2, I swapped it to the other switch which is activated sooner on the pedal travel, before the clutch wire was linked to the starter relay (so you put your foot on the clutch before starting it), now it is on it's wire.
Tonight was the planned night for the tuning, the car got a hammering as you'd expect, not a single issue. My mate was driving, we got all the maps sorted out, I've got all my meaty torque back. It took a tank of fuel and about 3 hours. A few more changes to make, on gear changes I get a bit of a boost spike that gives me knock, on the lower boost settings the knock is in areas of the map which have the knock have no knock if I'm going through these cells on a higher boost setting during a pull. So I don't want to pull timing. I need to get that sorted but as a work around I just flat foot shift it, no knock then, just bangs and flames. Other than that the boost control is spot on.
I've got a map that's 2800mbar (26psi) on super unleaded, it pulls really well but the IAT's are 75c, the charge coolers can't keep up. I'm going to drop that boost down a bit to see if it improves things. The big boy map with the methanol is 3000mbar (29psi), the IAT's are 30c for the majority of the run peaking at 40c which is pretty impressive, I could maybe increase the flow rate on the methanol at the top end to bring the 40c down to 30c. The EGT's are also 100c lower with methanol, it's a game changer in my car. The difference is huge. It's definately making more power now than it was on the dyno. I'm really happy, problem free now and I can use it properly.
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