Jaguar F-Pace Non Runner
Discussion
stevemcs said:
Thanks for the link. I did find their website earlier and I'm planning on ordering I've got a load of parts in my basket whilst I wait for an outcome on the crank. Cambs_Stuart said:
I haven't got any useful info to contribute, but this is a really interesting thread. Having seen a few very cheap JRL products with engine failure I had wondered how hard they'd be to repair. Based on this it's safe to say it'd be well outside my time/skill/space constraints.
I hope it's not beyond mine but I might have bitten off more than I can chew. I have found this thread a good read, and was hopeful your plight would have a favourable outcome. Its looking decidedly off track atm. Coincidentally started the day I went to my polish mechanic to code a battery in, and he was running an disco outside smoking it's tits off, having shat a turbo, run on the oil and cracked a piston in the process of eating oil. He wasn't very complimentary about the engine, now I can see why having read your thread and many of the ingenium links. What a woeful, cost engineered creation.
The silicone snake in the oil filter is a rather damning find, I must say. The damage pattern is inconsistent across the engine which is curious.
The silicone snake in the oil filter is a rather damning find, I must say. The damage pattern is inconsistent across the engine which is curious.
Jon_Bmw said:
In the realms of trying to save some pounds, could you Xylan coat the pistons? If you have accurate measuring equipment, you might be able to build them back up close to their original spec.
That level of scuffing should not be evident after 200 miles. The bores need measuring in an X pattern and at multiple bore heights. Presumably the machine shop can do this for you.
Skim reading through, its difficult to know whether going back to the same machine shop is a good idea or not. If anything is their fault, they are going to want to, erm.... cover it up. But they might also want to resolve it as they don't want you back for the 2nd time and the engine the 3rd time. Flip of a coin stuff.
Edit: I see you are having to replace the pistons as a complete set because of some damage, so you can discount my advice, unless you could somehow source an oversize single piston.
That skirt wear is very suspicious and needs a root cause or you are going to be back here again... I don't buy a constant regen and subsequent bore wash caused that in 200 miles (6hrs running?)
Yeah, I know what you mean about going back to the same place. They do these engines all the time, had a few others there so I guess they know what they are doing. These pistons are only £70 each, including the rings, is there a chance the coating on them is just crap? That level of scuffing should not be evident after 200 miles. The bores need measuring in an X pattern and at multiple bore heights. Presumably the machine shop can do this for you.
Skim reading through, its difficult to know whether going back to the same machine shop is a good idea or not. If anything is their fault, they are going to want to, erm.... cover it up. But they might also want to resolve it as they don't want you back for the 2nd time and the engine the 3rd time. Flip of a coin stuff.
Edit: I see you are having to replace the pistons as a complete set because of some damage, so you can discount my advice, unless you could somehow source an oversize single piston.
That skirt wear is very suspicious and needs a root cause or you are going to be back here again... I don't buy a constant regen and subsequent bore wash caused that in 200 miles (6hrs running?)
Edited by Jon_Bmw on Tuesday 3rd January 14:07
I have seen I can buy oversize pistons individually. I definately need one, another has the indent on it which I put a photo up of earlier so I'd want to change that. I figure I may as well get 4 at that point.
I agree the skirt wear is suspicious but if they say it's nothing to worry about, my choice is either accept that or take it somewhere else (It's the only place I know of and everyone local seems to use them). I've left all the parts with them, maybe the boss will have a look and think differently. He said there has been no material transfer between the pistons and the bores and put the scratches on the bores down to metal in the oil.
Escy said:
Jon_Bmw said:
In the realms of trying to save some pounds, could you Xylan coat the pistons? If you have accurate measuring equipment, you might be able to build them back up close to their original spec.
That level of scuffing should not be evident after 200 miles. The bores need measuring in an X pattern and at multiple bore heights. Presumably the machine shop can do this for you.
Skim reading through, its difficult to know whether going back to the same machine shop is a good idea or not. If anything is their fault, they are going to want to, erm.... cover it up. But they might also want to resolve it as they don't want you back for the 2nd time and the engine the 3rd time. Flip of a coin stuff.
Edit: I see you are having to replace the pistons as a complete set because of some damage, so you can discount my advice, unless you could somehow source an oversize single piston.
That skirt wear is very suspicious and needs a root cause or you are going to be back here again... I don't buy a constant regen and subsequent bore wash caused that in 200 miles (6hrs running?)
Yeah, I know what you mean about going back to the same place. They do these engines all the time, had a few others there so I guess they know what they are doing. These pistons are only £70 each, including the rings, is there a chance the coating on them is just crap? That level of scuffing should not be evident after 200 miles. The bores need measuring in an X pattern and at multiple bore heights. Presumably the machine shop can do this for you.
Skim reading through, its difficult to know whether going back to the same machine shop is a good idea or not. If anything is their fault, they are going to want to, erm.... cover it up. But they might also want to resolve it as they don't want you back for the 2nd time and the engine the 3rd time. Flip of a coin stuff.
Edit: I see you are having to replace the pistons as a complete set because of some damage, so you can discount my advice, unless you could somehow source an oversize single piston.
That skirt wear is very suspicious and needs a root cause or you are going to be back here again... I don't buy a constant regen and subsequent bore wash caused that in 200 miles (6hrs running?)
Edited by Jon_Bmw on Tuesday 3rd January 14:07
I have seen I can buy oversize pistons individually. I definately need one, another has the indent on it which I put a photo up of earlier so I'd want to change that. I figure I may as well get 4 at that point.
I agree the skirt wear is suspicious but if they say it's nothing to worry about, my choice is either accept that or take it somewhere else (It's the only place I know of and everyone local seems to use them). I've left all the parts with them, maybe the boss will have a look and think differently. He said there has been no material transfer between the pistons and the bores and put the scratches on the bores down to metal in the oil.
Jon_Bmw said:
This is an interesting read, well it is for me anyway;
https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media/local-medi...
A useful document for amateur enthusiasts to professionals, in wording that can easily be understood by the different audience spectrum.
That's a useful link, thank you.https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media/local-medi...
A useful document for amateur enthusiasts to professionals, in wording that can easily be understood by the different audience spectrum.
ClaphamGT3 said:
I'm only a weekend mechanic but, unless these photos are exaggerating the problems - esp with the bores, cam, rocker etc - this has got to be a write-off engine surely?
The problem is, if I write off the engine I don't really have my next move planned out. If it was something more readily available, I wouldn't be persevering with this one. Jhonno said:
Very brave purchase.. Interested to see how you get on. The concept of repair and reuse, especially on newer vehicles seems to be a lost art!
You can see why JLR just replace the engine straight away. tvrfan007 said:
I have found this thread a good read, and was hopeful your plight would have a favourable outcome. Its looking decidedly off track atm. Coincidentally started the day I went to my polish mechanic to code a battery in, and he was running an disco outside smoking it's tits off, having shat a turbo, run on the oil and cracked a piston in the process of eating oil. He wasn't very complimentary about the engine, now I can see why having read your thread and many of the ingenium links. What a woeful, cost engineered creation.
The silicone snake in the oil filter is a rather damning find, I must say. The damage pattern is inconsistent across the engine which is curious.
I'm definately off track, didn't get a good nights sleep last night. The engines aren't great but if they were I couldn't afford the car. I had a feel of a block they had in for liners, it had huge ridges at the top of the bores.The silicone snake in the oil filter is a rather damning find, I must say. The damage pattern is inconsistent across the engine which is curious.
Gtom said:
Didn’t you say it was around £3k to have a re con engine fitted?
If so you would be in it for £11k, that’s still cheap and there is some profit in it if you punt it on?
Seems that after looking for potential replacements that turned out to be a bit shy price-wise. £3k looks like the price for an untrusted “rebuilt” engine without fitting or any ancillary items required. No idea if that £3k was short block or similar either!If so you would be in it for £11k, that’s still cheap and there is some profit in it if you punt it on?
Escy said:
Looking around, engines advertised as spares or repairs are £1000-1500.
Escy said:
A re-built engine (I question the quality) is 3k. This is more than I planned to spend, I'd probably have to fit it and sell the car.
Escy said:
Used engines just don't seem to be out there under about 4.5k, just not an option.
Edited by paradigital on Tuesday 3rd January 20:33
Edited by paradigital on Tuesday 3rd January 20:34
I'd rebuild this engine if I had the know how but that's a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.
Way I see it you've identified the two main causes of the failures, the siliconed oil pump which seems to have blocked oil pathways and the blocked DPF possibly causing diesel contamination into the oil.
Hone the cylinders, new pistons, new oil pump, new bearings and either repair the cam or source a new one. Then rebuild the lot with all the right gaskets and no silicone and see how it goes. I suspect it will be like night and day.
Good luck though.
Way I see it you've identified the two main causes of the failures, the siliconed oil pump which seems to have blocked oil pathways and the blocked DPF possibly causing diesel contamination into the oil.
Hone the cylinders, new pistons, new oil pump, new bearings and either repair the cam or source a new one. Then rebuild the lot with all the right gaskets and no silicone and see how it goes. I suspect it will be like night and day.
Good luck though.
I deal and handle a lot of coated pistons, lots of myths around the coating.
Some are good and stay on, some are just meant to make a cheap piston look good ! i have witnessed workers in piston factory's spraying it on with a aerosol can, we dont put coated pistons though our hot wash as it can remove the coating.
Also clearance is quoted on a un-coated piston IE before they coat them, some like Wossner have a heavy thick coating. Others higher end pistons are leaving a missing round dot so you can measure the piston in the "un-coated" state.
With the pistons being £70.00 each i would not read too much into the state of the coating.
My advice is to get a second opinion on the state of the bores, you really need to find a company who not only is a "jobing shop" for the machine work buu who actually build the engines better still on this type of engine.
Hope this helps
Some are good and stay on, some are just meant to make a cheap piston look good ! i have witnessed workers in piston factory's spraying it on with a aerosol can, we dont put coated pistons though our hot wash as it can remove the coating.
Also clearance is quoted on a un-coated piston IE before they coat them, some like Wossner have a heavy thick coating. Others higher end pistons are leaving a missing round dot so you can measure the piston in the "un-coated" state.
With the pistons being £70.00 each i would not read too much into the state of the coating.
My advice is to get a second opinion on the state of the bores, you really need to find a company who not only is a "jobing shop" for the machine work buu who actually build the engines better still on this type of engine.
Hope this helps
Gtom said:
Didn’t you say it was around £3k to have a re con engine fitted?
If so you would be in it for £11k, that’s still cheap and there is some profit in it if you punt it on?
Yeah there would be, although I'll be into it for about 11.5k - 12k now if I go that route. If so you would be in it for £11k, that’s still cheap and there is some profit in it if you punt it on?
I might have been undervaluing it a bit. The guide price for private average condition is 16k.
The plan is I can fix this engine, I'll have a car with a fresh engine, fresh turbo and no DPF worries. I can run it for a couple of years, sell it and get my money back. Nice car and no depreciation. The reality could be I spend 2k fixing the engine, it fails and I need to spend 3k on a re-con and i'd lose my shirt on it then.
This crash damaged F-Pace just finished on ebay tonight. It sold for £9675. Same year and model - R Sport, 85k so 30k less miles but it's a CAT S. It has front end damage and all down the side. It's also a lower spec (basic nav, no pan roof). It makes me think I'm sitting pretty with mine.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2016-66-JAGUAR-F-PACE-R...
Escy said:
I'm definately off track, didn't get a good nights sleep last night. The engines aren't great but if they were I couldn't afford the car. I had a feel of a block they had in for liners, it had huge ridges at the top of the bores.
Re ridges, this is a known issue with the diesels, apparently caused by overfuelling in combination with poor-quality factory liners. https://dieselheads.co.uk/our-engines/204dta-engin...I'm not an engine man, just a mere enthusiast so take everything with a big pinch of unqualified salt.
Why is the a single big end bearing catastrophically worse than the others? I can't see the crank and therefore the oilways, so I can't check. On that rod there is so much damage that you can't do too much investigative work, the others don't really show much sign of bluing which you normally get when run super hot because of no oil pressure (or I can't see it on my phone photos). Perhaps you can check the oil galleries and crank galleries to see if this big end would be affected worse than the others.
That silicone in the filter housing and oil cooler looks horrendous, but what if it's a red herring?
Is the new linered bore the same one as the catastrophic failures big end? If so, what it this did go oval (is oval) with some heat in the engine, the clearances shrunk to unacceptable levels and the bearing was the thing that took all the pounding, subsequently blocking further crank oil paths, spinning subsequent shells quickly and wearing the others with contaminated oil.
As my attention span is lacking (generally in life, not just this thread!) I may have missed it, but could you list out photos from the flywheel end of the bore, the rod, the rod cap, the bearings and say which one was linered (I would group the photos per bore). Along with a simple schematic of the crank and major oil paths, I dare say at that point someone cleverer than me could probably tell you what may have occured first.
Why is the a single big end bearing catastrophically worse than the others? I can't see the crank and therefore the oilways, so I can't check. On that rod there is so much damage that you can't do too much investigative work, the others don't really show much sign of bluing which you normally get when run super hot because of no oil pressure (or I can't see it on my phone photos). Perhaps you can check the oil galleries and crank galleries to see if this big end would be affected worse than the others.
That silicone in the filter housing and oil cooler looks horrendous, but what if it's a red herring?
Is the new linered bore the same one as the catastrophic failures big end? If so, what it this did go oval (is oval) with some heat in the engine, the clearances shrunk to unacceptable levels and the bearing was the thing that took all the pounding, subsequently blocking further crank oil paths, spinning subsequent shells quickly and wearing the others with contaminated oil.
As my attention span is lacking (generally in life, not just this thread!) I may have missed it, but could you list out photos from the flywheel end of the bore, the rod, the rod cap, the bearings and say which one was linered (I would group the photos per bore). Along with a simple schematic of the crank and major oil paths, I dare say at that point someone cleverer than me could probably tell you what may have occured first.
Jon_Bmw said:
I'm not an engine man, just a mere enthusiast so take everything with a big pinch of unqualified salt.
Why is the a single big end bearing catastrophically worse than the others.
We have seen it on the odd Mazda engine where the pump is chain driven, the chain wears loses its ability to pump as well as it should and as a result it starves number 4 of oil. Same applies to the Vauxhall engine when the o ring fails on the pick up strainer.Why is the a single big end bearing catastrophically worse than the others.
chippy348 said:
I deal and handle a lot of coated pistons, lots of myths around the coating.
Some are good and stay on, some are just meant to make a cheap piston look good ! i have witnessed workers in piston factory's spraying it on with a aerosol can, we dont put coated pistons though our hot wash as it can remove the coating.
Also clearance is quoted on a un-coated piston IE before they coat them, some like Wossner have a heavy thick coating. Others higher end pistons are leaving a missing round dot so you can measure the piston in the "un-coated" state.
With the pistons being £70.00 each i would not read too much into the state of the coating.
My advice is to get a second opinion on the state of the bores, you really need to find a company who not only is a "jobing shop" for the machine work buu who actually build the engines better still on this type of engine.
Hope this helps
That does help, it confirms my suspicion the coating probably isn't up to much as they are so cheap. Some are good and stay on, some are just meant to make a cheap piston look good ! i have witnessed workers in piston factory's spraying it on with a aerosol can, we dont put coated pistons though our hot wash as it can remove the coating.
Also clearance is quoted on a un-coated piston IE before they coat them, some like Wossner have a heavy thick coating. Others higher end pistons are leaving a missing round dot so you can measure the piston in the "un-coated" state.
With the pistons being £70.00 each i would not read too much into the state of the coating.
My advice is to get a second opinion on the state of the bores, you really need to find a company who not only is a "jobing shop" for the machine work buu who actually build the engines better still on this type of engine.
Hope this helps
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