Mx5 Rocketeer V6 Conversion Project

[Lewis's Friend]

Escy said:

Why not just wire it up?

I believe others with the kit are doing so, but that is somewhat beyond my skill levels without a lot of instruction…!

AayMajjy said:

Ohh! Great idea, really looking forward to this build thread. Regarding the rust, my 2 year old M2.5 1.8 looked worse than that after a couple of salty winters! You've done well as they have abysmal corrosion protection. Cost wise, you've got to be looking at least at the price of a good 987S Boxster, but then again what fun would that be? Should sound fantastic and hopefully still handle great. Have fun!

Yes, I have stopped adding up what it has cost, but I could probably have got a Boxster or similar as you say. But I confess, they don’t do much for me though they are supposed to be very good cars of course.
Part of the reason for doing the conversion too was to learn new skills (but there was never any way I am good enough to do such a thing from scratch) and so it’s been great from that point of view too. The only downside is it not working very well now! A fairly important thing, but not insurmountable – just a bit more money… Who said cars were money pits…?

[Lewis's Friend]

3duxpeter said:

Wiring up the vvt is just a matter of plugging in the two solenoid connectors, right? At least that's what it entails on my gen 2 ecu + loom.
The tricky bit is the mapping I guess, but that's an outsourced job anyway, with support from ME.

Mine is an earlier version of the kit, and the loom doesn't have that facility so it would be a lot more work for me to enable VVT unfortunately.

[Lewis's Friend]

magpies said:

Hi

any progress in the last couple of months?

I'm about to put fuel in mine (TVR S with AJ30 engine/box) this weekend for the first time and see if it will start.

There has been some progress, but all is not going smoothly with it...

I'm fairly convinced, weighing everything in the balance and trying not to overreact, that the car is cursed. It seems the logical explanation!

I will of course update this thread, but I'll wait until it's finally sorted because at the moment all I can say is it doesn't work still!

[Lewis's Friend]

Escy said:

I'm guessing tuning issues over mechanical?

To be honest, I'm not sure what the current issue is, but I'll put a proper post up when it's all done; not to try and appear mysterious or anything of that nature, but because I don't know what the fault is and at this stage I'd prefer to get it sorted and then document the whole process in it's entirety.

It is frustrating I confess, but I seem to be having more than my fair share of problems! Others have had a much smoother ride. That could just be others are better at this though!

[Lewis's Friend]

AayMajjy said:

V8RX7 said:

It won't last - it does with Porsche, C / D / E type replicas etc but MX5's , much as I love them - no way

What he should have done is either supply a complete kit (which is what was claimed) or teamed up with someone who can give proper support.

Some will buy the parts and they'll never hear from them again, others will need their hands held all the way through.

I suspect the amount of problems people have had with the kits (and not all the fault of Rocketeer) means that they just want control over the builds. And I totally understand that from their point of view. I would assume I would have been pretty much bang in the middle of the kit target audience - pretty competent home mechanic, engineer by trade (not automotive though), but not skilled enough to even think of doing a whole swap from scratch. But I've been onto them quite a lot. Often as I've had to mod bits and pieces that fit on their demo car but not mine etc. That hasn't bothered me really, as I expected such things (no bolt on kit for something so complex will be perfect across a 10yr production run of cars and all the associated variants). But if you truly expected it just to bolt on like a big mechano set then you may well have been disappointed.

Also, any issues you have could be the kit at fault, your own work or faulty second hand parts! All of which people expect them to sort. So taking it all in house is understandable I suppose.

Also, they will restore a car, but I think you can just get them to do the conversion.

Edited by Lewis's Friend on Monday 30th December 17:55

[Lewis's Friend]

3duxpeter said:

As a fellow kit-builder who has nearly finished his build, I also believe their move to only sell complete conversions is the right one. (Although I don't understand why they also stopped their partnership with Rocketworks in the US, but that's probably a separate decision).

As for faults... let's be honest, there have been many avoidable issues with the kit itself. From brackets that don't fit, oil pickups that are seriously out of spec, complete lack of an oil filter option for RHD cars to shipping the incomplete or wrong parts on multiple occassions. What was marketed as a complete kit that could be built in a couple weekends, turned out to be a >1 year project that requires significant extra funds. That may sound naive on my part, but really it could have been what they promised if more care and attention had been spent on the part quality/QA, logistics and communication.

Just my 2cts.

That's probably a fair post, but I decided to get the car built and running properly (which has not been easy, but I trust soon will be ok. Hopefully...) before posting about the struggles I've had.

That's mainly so that I avoid the temptation to post up angry denunciations of people/parts in moments of frustration, or alternatively forgetting difficulties when something had gone right.

My car still doesn't work, and will be being looked at in the new year. But I have no clue what's up with it, and could turn out to be something I've done so I'll hold fire putting up a big post about the last issues with the build until it's all done and dusted.

[Lewis's Friend]

I have a spare Rocketeer look and ECU as it happens, as I've switched to the MBE system. I'm not sure whether that would be of any value to you at all, but feel free to PM me if it would, or to ask a question (not that I'm an expert at all!).

[Lewis's Friend]

mgb281 said:

Jon
Did you get my PM?
Philip

Just answered...

[Lewis's Friend]

mgb281 said:

This is not for a Rocketeer but the AJV6 into a MGB, can anyone tell me how the extra pulley is added to the crank pulley. Do you somehow fix to the existing pulley or do you change the existing crank pulley to one from a Mazda Tribute that has the "same" bottom pulley but a threaded hole in each of the three spokes. All info much appreciated.

It's an additional pulley made to fit the existing damper. You just remove the crank pulley bolt and then bolt up the new pulley. It's not keyed but would struggle to slip.

[Lewis's Friend]

3duxpeter said:

Lewis's friend, any progress yet?

Yes, slow progress...!

But excitingly, I should be picking the car up soon from Basset Down Balancing. I'll put a full post explaining everything from the last update (for those who are interested!).

One of the biggest surprises on the car so far was due to the wheels on it. I've never been happy with the handling/steering feel of the car. I've chased the issues through suspension alignment, steering racks and still not happy. But I was able to try the car on the Rocketeer wheels and it transformed the car!

I'm running 15x8j wheels while the Rocketeer car is on 15x7j with the same size tyres on. The difference was amazing, so I'm on the hunt for some narrower wheels now too...

[Lewis's Friend]

3duxpeter said:

That is interesting! I'm currently running 15x7 too (I think they're even the same Rota's as Bruce has on his demo car) but figured with the extra power I could use an upgrade to 15x8 at some point...maybe not eh. Do you what offset you have on both wheels? I wonder if it's related to that.

I was running 15x8j et25 but with 195/50 tyres (looked cool - bad idea though!).

I know a lot of people run 8" wheels with no problems, but given that I just tried 7" ones and it felt so much better then that's what I'll stick with now. Not sure what wheels yet...

[Lewis's Friend]

Paul S4 said:

Keep the updates coming, !
Having followed this thread all the way from the beginning I am curious to know 'what happened next'!

Fear not, I haven't forgotten this thread and fully intend to update. It just seems (unsurprisingly) that the last 5% of the project has taken about 50% of the time!

I hope that is almost done though - at least in terms of the engine swap. I have many other things I'd like to do, but I've left it until the engine was buttoned up.

[Lewis's Friend]

So, finally an update for all the hoards of folks who have been avidly following this build! And a positive one at that.

Back before Christmas I was looking around for options as I wasn't happy with how the car ran after tuning. As mentioned, a friend asked another tuner to have a look at it, and though he didn't know the car/engine/ECU really at all, he is very experienced (he was able to have a look at mine as he finished setting up a race Ferrari 348 early). He looked at my car, and in roughly 3 hours was able to make it run better (though not perfectly, which is quite understandable).

Rocketeer now use a different ECU supplier, and there is some bad feeling between the original supplier and Rocketeer. I don't know the full ins and outs of it really, and for the sake of this thread I will not say any more on the matter. Please feel free to PM me if you want to know my views if you are building a conversion etc. But that is not for this thread I think.

I was therefore in something of a quandary as to which way to go. Persist with my current setup and the tuner who improved it, give the car to Rocketeer to try and improve or give the car to Rocketeer to fit their new setup (which also enables VVT). I ended up going for the new setup. This decision came about after much cogitation, but I felt I would always be chasing my tail with the old setup, I didn't feel I would get adequate support from the original ECU supplier/tuner and the new system sounded much better. Of course, I bought a kit that should have worked straight away and which subsequently didn't which is not ideal. However, Rocketeer agreed to supply the new ECU, wiring and throttle bodies to anyone looking to upgrade at cost price (the kit price went up by the same amount with the new parts) so although I ended up paying more than I originally bargained on, it worked out the same as if I'd bought the later version of the kit. As I say, not ideal but at least it should work.

With that in mind, I dropped the car off to Basset Down Balancing (Rocketeer's partner) to fit the new kit:

PSX_20191111_161853 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

For the first time in a while, I was excited to have the car back, as I confess I'd got pretty demotivated with it. So I left it there, and picked it up a few weeks later.

PSX_20191111_163534 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

New look engine bay shot:

IMG_20200308_155638 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

Custom throttle body:

IMG_20200308_155645 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

It instantly felt much better; much more torquey (thanks to the working VVT in the main), it idled properly, didn't kangaroo at partial throttle openings. It basically felt like a proper car. So I drove it home (which for me is M4, M25), but sadly by the time I got it home I was less happy with it, though not really because of the engine. The car has never handled quite as I'd like, being too crashy over imperfections and not steering 'smoothly'. I'd asked BD to lift the car up slightly which they had done on the slightly naff coilovers on the car, but this seemed to have made things worse. I also found trouble starting the car in that it would die unless caught on the accelerator (though work fine after that). So I phoned BD again and Bruce from Rocketeer came to my house to have a look. The upshot was we agreed I would bring the car back to BD, where the starting issue would be addressed and Bruce considered that a lot of my handling/ride concerns stemmed from my wheel choice.

On taking the car down there, we swapped the Rocketeer demo car wheels onto my own and went for a test drive, and what a massive difference it made! I had expected to feel a difference but it was like driving a totally different car! So I left the car with BD to sort the starting and went shopping for new wheels...

So, I have just picked up my car from BD, and it drives as before (ie very nicely), while also starting first time. It's nice and driveable around town, you can take the mick with high gears at low speeds with no problems and it feels nice a quick when revved out. I have also now changed my 8'' wide wheels for 7'' wide, and this has greatly improved the handling and feel of the car too even on the slightly naff coilovers! In all, finally I can look at it without being a bit depressed and I look forward to driving it - a result!

Finally, a picture of it back on the drive, looking pretty dirty...

IMG_20200308_155600 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

[Lewis's Friend]

Thanks for all the positive comments, they're always appreciated.

In terms of coilovers, I have 'Emotion Racing' items... These certainly conjure emotions whilst driving, though not always good and happy ones! These came with the car, and are in fairly good condition - hence not having changed them yet.

When I gave the car to BD to look at the handling I was more than prepared to be told the coilovers were ruining the car. However, the wheels turned out to be the biggest spoiler. I do fully intend to get something decent on there at some stage, but as they're not actively ruining the car it can wait a bit. I've spent too much already!

It does need a decent wheel alignment though, so I will be popping into Wheels in Motion soon to get that done. I was impressed with their work last time I was there.

In terms of bushes, I went for new OE items as I thought poly would be harsher than I really wanted on the road (which this car is for 99% of the time).

[Lewis's Friend]

Escy said:

Nice update, glad it's sorted. Considering how well put together the kit seemed, the ecu side of it seems odd. Why did they select an ecu that doesn't have the ability to control VVT in the first place?

Even with the new ecu I don't understand why they don't come loaded with a map that's good to go straight away. All these conversions are near enough the same spec, tune one car and then upload the file to every new ecu you sell. Things like the cold start fueling are simple.

Cheers, it's good to have it working.

I'm not very clear on mapping and such at all, so can only really answer in the vaguest terms.

The original ECU was capable of controlling VVT but was not set up for that from the start. Equally, the map that came with it was meant to be good to go from the box. Sadly it wasn't. There is now some acrimony between the two companies, and I don't know all the details so won't go any further on this thread. But that was the situation.

The MBE ECU was also meant to work out of the box, and was admittedly a vast improvement. It just had a starting foible! I know the very same map worked well in the demo car, as I drove it. What the difference was I couldn't say, but by the sound of it, it wasn't as easy as they first thought to fix without then having another issue elsewhere in the map! However, with the aid of MBE, they persevered until it was good and then let me know (I'd already said I didn't really mind how long it took, as long as it came back right). It's now all good, and I think the map from my car is now the standard (though don't quote me on that)...

I couldn't tell you more technically speaking, as I know nothing about it technically!

[Lewis's Friend]

C70R said:

I'm glad you're getting towards a place of being happier with the car, given how much time you've invested.

Two thoughts:
- Cheap coilovers and big/heavy wheels will never give a good road ride on a lightweight car. Decent investment here will repay itself tenfold.
- It's a bit naff for Rocketeer to shirk responsibility for the cost of the updated ECU, and I feel like you deserve better given your experience of being a guinea pig.

Cheers for that.

The coilovers will definitely be changed for decent units at some point. But I want to get some use from the car for a bit before spending too much, and while doubtless it would feel much nicer, it's not spoiling the experience either. So for now, I'll hold off.

In terms of the ECU, its a tricky one. I wasn't terribly thrilled to have to spend more than I had originally bargained for (of course not!), but realistically I doubt if Rocketeer could foot the bill to upgrade everyone for free anyway, and then having a kit unsupported because the company is bust doesn't help either! I won't go into it too much, as it yet again leads into a discussion about Rocketeer and ME but I'm pleased it works now anyway.

[Lewis's Friend]

In terms of new shocks etc, I'll not be changing them for a while until my back balance recovers its composure.

But when that time comes, I'm open to different options. Of course, I'd like to try some options, but that is difficult. Within reason, I'm happy to save up for big money coilovers if they are worth the money. Equally, if Bilstein shocks prove to be a good road solution then I'd be happy to go with that.

What would grieve me would be to go for one (at whatever price) and then be dissatisfied with them. But this is all for the future!

[Lewis's Friend]

V8RX7 said:

I used to be an MX5 Specialist - I tested around 20 different set ups on my car and drove pretty much all of them.

Koni adjustables are a great choice if you don't want to go too low.

Very few would need better than BC / Meister R / HSD

Many of the Jap shocks only adjust from rock hard to immovable

That's really interesting to know. I was looking at Meister Zeta's at one point as they seem to be quite well thought of (though there is a school of thought that says they're forum snake oil - of course! Never a consensus).

My coilovers are basically all the way soft, and still quite hard...!

[Lewis's Friend]

Another update, this time just for a couple of little bolt on bits I bought on black Friday, but then refused to fit until it worked properly (because it doesn't deserve nice things if it won't play properly!).

These are a couple of items from DaveFab, which are very nice quality. The first is a brake stopper, and the second a radiator panel.

IMG_20200107_090706 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

IMG_20191204_110031 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

The brake stopper is designed to overcome an Mx5 problem, which is that when standing on the brake, the firewall flexes. This doesn't really effect brake performance but does mean the pedal feels a bit poor. Many people swear by them and they seem universally to be considered worthwhile so I thought I'd fit one. There are a couple on the market, but this seemed the neatest. It bolt to the brake booster and triangulates to a spare captive nut near the strut tower. It also replaces the bracket that the brake manifold mounts to.

Pictures are tricky, but I tried... Before:

IMG_20200107_090942 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

IMG_20200107_090934 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

And fitted:

IMG_20200107_100427 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

IMG_20200107_100450 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

It's not an obvious mod, nor easy to take a picture of but it does make a big difference. I had thought I wouldn't really notice anything unless really stamping on the brakes, but it actually has just improved pedal feel in normal driving too so happy with that.

The other upgrade was purely cosmetic and replaces the plastic radiator cover. Before:

IMG_20200311_153602 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

After:

IMG_20200311_160506 by Jon Fellows, on Flickr

Purely form, but I like it! So that's it again for now. Fully up to date...

[Lewis's Friend]

Mikeeb said:

Was it the width of the wheels that was the issue or was it actually the offset?

I would imagine a combination of things. Having tyres with some stretch would have not helped sidewall compliance etc, while the narrower wheel would (I expect) help with steering weight and the car's tendency to follow road imperfections.

I have read that the offset can have a surprisingly big effect with Mx5s too, so going closer to factory seems no bad thing.