My 205 4X4 Cosworth

[J4CKO]

This has everything, big power, retro interest, 4wd etc, following with interest.

Just one question, you sure it will be quick enough ?

Isnt it going to be on par/more powerful than a Group B rally car ?

[Caddyshack]

J4CKO said:

This has everything, big power, retro interest, 4wd etc, following with interest.

Just one question, you sure it will be quick enough ?

Isnt it going to be on par/more powerful than a Group B rally car ?

I think it probably has more power than the group B cars, it will certainly be less laggy etc as the turbo tech has really moved on. I think the rally cross cars of the day were about 500hp?

[TwoStrokeNut]

Caddyshack said:

I think it probably has more power than the group B cars, it will certainly be less laggy etc as the turbo tech has really moved on. I think the rally cross cars of the day were about 500hp?

The later Evo T16s had 550bhp alledgely, though are thought to have run less for reliability. The did have a primitive form of anti lag. Probably still a ton of lag, especially at slightly shy of 1.8ltr. Super close gears and fancy foot work it was then.

[Caddyshack]

TwoStrokeNut said:

Caddyshack said:

I think it probably has more power than the group B cars, it will certainly be less laggy etc as the turbo tech has really moved on. I think the rally cross cars of the day were about 500hp?

The later Evo T16s had 550bhp alledgely, though are thought to have run less for reliability. The did have a primitive form of anti lag. Probably still a ton of lag, especially at slightly shy of 1.8ltr. Super close gears and fancy foot work it was then.

I did find that the closer gears on mine allowed you to stay in the boost much better. The original set up was a t34 turbo and 330bhp, it was like a series of big lunges with a gap between each gear while the boost grew again...it felt fast but was hard to string it all together.

[Caddyshack]

I mentioned earlier that the rear turrets were stopping the dampers going up and down as no room had been left for the remote reservoir or the damping adjuster. I am now beginning to shape it all to how it should be before boxing it all back in.



It should look like one continuous curve when done.

I have also been making room for the diff as the top of the diff was touching the boot floor cross member, that too will be boxed in. There is massive strength above and I will double layer the boot floor where it meets the old cross members. When the car was originally converted in 1990 it had an extra 4mm box section stitch welded to the original 205 cross member so it is all a bit overkill but it won’t hurt as the 205 panels are like crisp packets.

Edited by Caddyshack on Tuesday 26th April 18:23

Edited by Caddyshack on Tuesday 26th April 18:24

[lord trumpton]

What an amazing project!

Awesome reading so far!

Well Done OP!

[Caddyshack]

lord trumpton said:

What an amazing project!

Awesome reading so far!

Well Done OP!

Thank you, I will keep the updates coming.

Some bits of the car were lost by the fabricators over the 3 years it was away so I have begrudgingly ordered replacement parts - I am now using Anembo engineering for these as they bought out the tooling etc from the previous company. Yesterday I ordered 2x bearing caps for the WRC hubs (have 2 and they lost 2), WRC engine mounts (I have the chassis side but the engine side went walkies) Outer WRC front suspension top mounts (I have the inners but the outers went) and 4x billet 4x4 output flanges - that one was a bit painful as they are expensive.

I will also need to replace a Sierra non PAS steering rack with quaife internals as I am am going over to Corsa B power steering, the brand new rack has been lost too.

Onwards and upwards. Today I will be chopping out the offending part of the roll cage and a new sheet steel bender will arrive so I can get started on the boxing in.

[J4CKO]

Caddyshack said:

J4CKO said:

This has everything, big power, retro interest, 4wd etc, following with interest.

Just one question, you sure it will be quick enough ?

Isnt it going to be on par/more powerful than a Group B rally car ?

I think it probably has more power than the group B cars, it will certainly be less laggy etc as the turbo tech has really moved on. I think the rally cross cars of the day were about 500hp?

I remember in the late eighties watching a video of Rallycross with Murray Walker commentating, he said Will Gollops 6R4 will do 0-60 in 1.9 seconds, I had to rewind it as I thought I heard it wrong as back then a very quick car couldnt crack 5 seconds by and large, even an F40 took twice as long.

1.9 might have been slightly exaggerated but in the realms of possibility on the right tyres maybe ?

[Caddyshack]

J4CKO said:

Caddyshack said:

J4CKO said:

This has everything, big power, retro interest, 4wd etc, following with interest.

Just one question, you sure it will be quick enough ?

Isnt it going to be on par/more powerful than a Group B rally car ?

I think it probably has more power than the group B cars, it will certainly be less laggy etc as the turbo tech has really moved on. I think the rally cross cars of the day were about 500hp?

I remember in the late eighties watching a video of Rallycross with Murray Walker commentating, he said Will Gollops 6R4 will do 0-60 in 1.9 seconds, I had to rewind it as I thought I heard it wrong as back then a very quick car couldnt crack 5 seconds by and large, even an F40 took twice as long.

1.9 might have been slightly exaggerated but in the realms of possibility on the right tyres maybe ?

I too remember that exact event. There was talk of them wondering if they needed to pump oxygen in to the crash helmets if they got any quicker to stop them passing out (I know some drag racers pass out, hence the "dead mans stick"). I am sure my 205 will be capable of some low times if I can get over the mechanical sympathy and the thought of sticky tyres and over £12k invested in the gearbox and diffs being treated that way. The launch control is set at 4,500 rpm so in theory a dump of the clutch at that and off you go, It has spun up all 4 wheels on me a few times so the system is up to it. I have done some launches from low revs and it tends to lurch and then bog a bit so more gas is needed.

[Arnold Cunningham]

Caddyshack said:

I am sure my 205 will be capable of some low times if I can get over the mechanical sympathy

But you'll definitely do it at least once, on video, yeah?

[Caddyshack]

Arnold Cunningham said:

Caddyshack said:

I am sure my 205 will be capable of some low times if I can get over the mechanical sympathy

But you'll definitely do it at least once, on video, yeah?

I would like to say yes. I have made it so that the gearbox can come out in about 30 mins work and I have a ramp so changing a clutch doesnt bother me but the 6.5k gearbox is something of a worry. I believe the front diff is the weakest point and people now fit a 3.5k FFD diff which is massive and I have seen some people run a rear diff the wrong way up in the front. I think that if I bust a diff I might look at putting a modern alloy yank or BMW diff at each end as they are strong, light and available in all ratios. I was a bit limited at the time as I needed a 3.9 diff ratio up front that would fit the standard cossie cross member which was very restricted on space but now I have a simple cradle up front and the engine is now chassis mounted so I have many options.

I have also seen that Mark Knight has very cleverly fitted a BMW auto to his WRC copy escort and even got it to run a 4wd transfer box. A sequential box is also likely if I do destroy the oppliger box, although I have seen videos of these oppligers getting massive abuse drifting 4wd escos and they have been fine.

[Olivera]

Caddyshack said:

but the 6.5k gearbox is something of a worry

Is it an Oppliger 5 speed manual with synchros and semi-helical gears? I thought the gearkit was only about 2kish? What ratios did you go for, and how noisy and nice to use is it on the road? Really interested to hear your thoughts.

[andy_ran]

What an amazing project. Looking forward to reading the progress

Best of luck with everything

[Caddyshack]

andy_ran said:

What an amazing project. Looking forward to reading the progress

Best of luck with everything

Thanks, I am gonna need luck and a load of cash....perhaps I need a go fund me page?

[Caddyshack]

Olivera said:

Caddyshack said:

but the 6.5k gearbox is something of a worry

Is it an Oppliger 5 speed manual with synchros and semi-helical gears? I thought the gearkit was only about 2kish? What ratios did you go for, and how noisy and nice to use is it on the road? Really interested to hear your thoughts.

Hi, yes it is that one. It is nice to use and very rifle bolt action. There is some noise but not defeaning and it makes some nice noises, it is not like a straight cut box that is really obtrusive and in 5th at cruise it is like a normal box really. The 6 speed was not an option at the time. I think the gear kit was around 2.5k plus shipping and then import taxes, then I had to source a second hand box to have stripped and then you pay to have the box built up and it needed an uprated viscous, new chains, bearings etc. The shipping to bara and back etc....it all mounts up. I have included the bespoke prop shafts in that too as they needed to be suited for the length of the car with the spacer in there, as I was swapping to the supra diff I had to have a whole new prop made along with a new front one. The quick shift is more on top (although binned that now). I may have "over rememebered" the total price though. Perhaps it was nearer 5k all done? It also needed a new flywheel, clutch and then a change to hydraulic action as it made the cable too hard to push so the pedal box needed adapting too...and the tunnel cut etc.

Oppliger can be a bit hit and miss with his communication and customer service / bed side manner. There have been a few issues with other customers popping out of gear under load, mine did it but was found to be a bent selector fork. I had the box stripped and checked again at Bara and he was very kind to only charge me for the fork and did all the labour for free as it went wrong so quickly after, they asked me to remove the quick shift as felt that could have contributed. If I was building a new box now I would seek out Pete Doherty and see what he advised. Oppliger was not particularly interested in the popping out of gear issue on my car and a couple of other cars where I knew the owners.

I cannot remember the ratios now..will have to look it up. I got Mark Shead to help me pick as we did not need more than 160mph top speed on the 16 inch wheels and 3.9 diffs. So, it is a long (ish) first gear and then tightly stacked up to 5th, it is great between 2nd, 3rd and 4th as the revs do not drop much at all...a bit like a 1.6 gti pug.

[mat205125]

I remember that car from a couple decades back when it was still on the escort wheels at a track day at castle combe

Great to see these projects still alive and being rejuvenated

[Caddyshack]

mat205125 said:

I remember that car from a couple decades back when it was still on the escort wheels at a track day at castle combe

Great to see these projects still alive and being rejuvenated

I have a picture of that day! He commented that he wore out the tyres and brakes that day! It looked a bit odd on the Escos wheels as they were the wrong offset for the body shell as the overall width is a little less than an escos.

[Caddyshack]

The supplier of the seats and the cage builder, floor designer were all the same person at the same time. Sadly the seats did not have enough room to go far back enough from my legs to straighten. I am just over 5’10". I have had to cut out the harness bar and the uprights from there to the hoop. I think the hoop should have been around an inch farther back, in line with the door pillar.



The base of the seats hit the base of the hoop support and the shoulder wings hit the diagonal door bar.



I am tempted to cut out the diagonal door bar and put in a shorter one much higher up. It looks worse than it is but your head would be very close to this bar.





Harness bar cut out. I will finish it with a skim back to the bar and any grinder nicks will be welded over and dressed back. It’s a shame to lose this bar so I will put another in further back for the harnesses, this time at the correct height as per the blue book as the current one would have been way too low and could snap the seat back in a shunt.

The seat hits the floor support for the cage, it will be on mounts or runners if I have room but it looks like this will have to be re-done too.



Below, seat has a bit more room to go back now but I think with a bit more corrective work I can get it how it should be.

Edited by Caddyshack on Thursday 28th April 18:38

[Caddyshack]

I think I will need to remove all the bits striped in red.

Any thoughts?

[normalbloke]

I’m loving the car. The tube work around that seat is shocking, some of the welds definitely need revisiting. Is this an opportunity to start again with the tube work and get the seating position and safety where it needs to be? Am I being too harsh, and is it the photos doing it an injustice?