'Oddjob' aka 2002 330i Touring
Discussion
duds100 said:
Great thread!
I am currently running stock (new) sachs dampers on my 330 touring with Eibach pro springs & the H&R bars and disappointingly I find the weight transfer very slow and the car has too much roll. Not sure whether to buy KW V2's or go straight for the Clubsports. I want the car to be much more dynamic, but not bone crushingly uncomfortable.
I'd very very interested to hear how do you find your KW V3's with the H&R bars for road comfort, and also how they hold up to track work?
Re too much roll I ran the same size arbs as the op on a 330d Touring and a 328 saloon. I found both cars had hardly any roll. This was road driving, not track. I found the rear 21mm bar gave a very slight decrease in ride quality, the 27 front made no difference to ride quality.I am currently running stock (new) sachs dampers on my 330 touring with Eibach pro springs & the H&R bars and disappointingly I find the weight transfer very slow and the car has too much roll. Not sure whether to buy KW V2's or go straight for the Clubsports. I want the car to be much more dynamic, but not bone crushingly uncomfortable.
I'd very very interested to hear how do you find your KW V3's with the H&R bars for road comfort, and also how they hold up to track work?
I currently have another 330d Touring with a 27 front bar and a 19 rear so ride quality is maintained. Hope this helps and apologies to the op for replying on your thread! (E46 Tourings with 6 cylinders are rather good).
helix402 said:
Re too much roll I ran the same size arbs as the op on a 330d Touring and a 328 saloon. I found both cars had hardly any roll. This was road driving, not track. I found the rear 21mm bar gave a very slight decrease in ride quality, the 27 front made no difference to ride quality.
I currently have another 330d Touring with a 27 front bar and a 19 rear so ride quality is maintained. Hope this helps and apologies to the op for replying on your thread! (E46 Tourings with 6 cylinders are rather good).
I have the H&R bars (27 front, 21mm rear) on a 330d Touring. Polybushed front & rear arms and refreshed OEM bushes elsewhere. I currently have another 330d Touring with a 27 front bar and a 19 rear so ride quality is maintained. Hope this helps and apologies to the op for replying on your thread! (E46 Tourings with 6 cylinders are rather good).
On spirited road driving there is too much roll - the spring rate feels insufficient. The lateral weight transfer is also too slow (underdamped).
I would be interested to hear the OP's insight into how the dynamic attributes feel on his setup as I think our vehicle use is similar.
Edited by duds100 on Friday 7th June 13:15
duds100 said:
helix402 said:
Re too much roll I ran the same size arbs as the op on a 330d Touring and a 328 saloon. I found both cars had hardly any roll. This was road driving, not track. I found the rear 21mm bar gave a very slight decrease in ride quality, the 27 front made no difference to ride quality.
I currently have another 330d Touring with a 27 front bar and a 19 rear so ride quality is maintained. Hope this helps and apologies to the op for replying on your thread! (E46 Tourings with 6 cylinders are rather good).
I have the H&R bars (27 front, 21mm rear) on a 330d Touring. Polybushed front & rear arms and refreshed OEM bushes elsewhere. I currently have another 330d Touring with a 27 front bar and a 19 rear so ride quality is maintained. Hope this helps and apologies to the op for replying on your thread! (E46 Tourings with 6 cylinders are rather good).
On spirited road driving there is too much roll - the spring rate feels insufficient. The lateral weight transfer is also too slow (underdamped).
I would be interested to hear the OP's insight into how the dynamic attributes feel on his setup as I think our vehicle use is similar.
Edited by duds100 on Friday 7th June 13:15
With the V3s by themselves and stock roll bars, the car is sharp and reacts well to direction change, however it did roll a fair bit when out on track, the stock roll bars are more than sufficient for B roads and alike, but are a tad under spec when it comes to track work, and does suffer mid corner understeer.
As for the H&R with V3s, they marry up very well, the car changes direction nicely, though will push on in corners if you lean too hard due to the front camber being -1.0 camber with the stock top mounts. I've found that you need to have around 2.5-3.0 degrees negative front camber to really get the front end to hold in the mid corner, hence the Turner Motorsport camber plates i installed not long ago to aid in eliminating the mid corner understeer, and so far it has, the car feels much more balanced as a result.
Damping wise, the setup recommended by KW is good, however I found i had to take 2 clicks softer in both bound and rebound in the rear dampers to balance the car as on the road, the back end will have a tendency to 'pogo' on bumps instead of riding them well, otherwise they work great for both road and track with that setup.
Front end wise, would also recommend a strut brace, Poly bushes in the RTA and lolipops to stabilize the alignment as the stock bushes quickly go soft with track work, resulting in the alignment doing odd things when you're driving spiritedly, and rear camber arms with ball joints in the lower knuckles on the rear arms.
Those lower rear bushes take a lot of abuse and will be the source of a lot of clunking noises out back which will drive you crackers if you've done the anti roll bars already, Given that the same ball joint fits both upper and lower positions, it's a cheap but very effective upgrade, more so when combined with a aftermarket camber arm as it really makes the rear end predictable and a surprising amount of corner grip.
Edited by Sf_Manta on Friday 7th June 18:04
Edited by Sf_Manta on Friday 7th June 18:05
Sf_Manta said:
I've run the car both with stock roll bars and H&R's with the V3 KW's. and what i've found is the following:
With the V3s by themselves and stock roll bars, the car is sharp and reacts well to direction change, however it did roll a fair bit when out on track, the stock roll bars are more than sufficient for B roads and alike, but are a tad under spec when it comes to track work, and does suffer mid corner understeer.
As for the H&R with V3s, they marry up very well, the car changes direction nicely, though will push on in corners if you lean too hard due to the front camber being -1.0 camber with the stock top mounts. I've found that you need to have around 2.5-3.0 degrees negative front camber to really get the front end to hold in the mid corner, hence the Turner Motorsport camber plates i installed not long ago to aid in eliminating the mid corner understeer, and so far it has, the car feels much more balanced as a result.
Damping wise, the setup recommended by KW is good, however I found i had to take 2 clicks softer in both bound and rebound in the rear dampers to balance the car as on the road, the back end will have a tendency to 'pogo' on bumps instead of riding them well, otherwise they work great for both road and track with that setup.
Front end wise, would also recommend a strut brace, Poly bushes in the RTA and lolipops to stabilize the alignment as the stock bushes quickly go soft with track work, resulting in the alignment doing odd things when you're driving spiritedly, and rear camber arms with ball joints in the lower knuckles on the rear arms.
Those lower rear bushes take a lot of abuse and will be the source of a lot of clunking noises out back which will drive you crackers if you've done the anti roll bars already, Given that the same ball joint fits both upper and lower positions, it's a cheap but very effective upgrade, more so when combined with a aftermarket camber arm as it really makes the rear end predictable and a surprising amount of corner grip.
Thanks for that really informative analysis & setup info - long live Pistonheads! That's confirmed i'll be going the V2/V3 route then rather than Clubsport. I'll also install some front camber plates, brace & some rear camber arms. With the V3s by themselves and stock roll bars, the car is sharp and reacts well to direction change, however it did roll a fair bit when out on track, the stock roll bars are more than sufficient for B roads and alike, but are a tad under spec when it comes to track work, and does suffer mid corner understeer.
As for the H&R with V3s, they marry up very well, the car changes direction nicely, though will push on in corners if you lean too hard due to the front camber being -1.0 camber with the stock top mounts. I've found that you need to have around 2.5-3.0 degrees negative front camber to really get the front end to hold in the mid corner, hence the Turner Motorsport camber plates i installed not long ago to aid in eliminating the mid corner understeer, and so far it has, the car feels much more balanced as a result.
Damping wise, the setup recommended by KW is good, however I found i had to take 2 clicks softer in both bound and rebound in the rear dampers to balance the car as on the road, the back end will have a tendency to 'pogo' on bumps instead of riding them well, otherwise they work great for both road and track with that setup.
Front end wise, would also recommend a strut brace, Poly bushes in the RTA and lolipops to stabilize the alignment as the stock bushes quickly go soft with track work, resulting in the alignment doing odd things when you're driving spiritedly, and rear camber arms with ball joints in the lower knuckles on the rear arms.
Those lower rear bushes take a lot of abuse and will be the source of a lot of clunking noises out back which will drive you crackers if you've done the anti roll bars already, Given that the same ball joint fits both upper and lower positions, it's a cheap but very effective upgrade, more so when combined with a aftermarket camber arm as it really makes the rear end predictable and a surprising amount of corner grip.
Edited by Sf_Manta on Friday 7th June 18:04
Edited by Sf_Manta on Friday 7th June 18:05
Would you mind sending a link for where you sourced the top mounts that suit the KW's? I can only find the non-M3 fixed plates on the Turner website.
duds100 said:
Thanks for that really informative analysis & setup info - long live Pistonheads! That's confirmed i'll be going the V2/V3 route then rather than Clubsport. I'll also install some front camber plates, brace & some rear camber arms.
Would you mind sending a link for where you sourced the top mounts that suit the KW's? I can only find the non-M3 fixed plates on the Turner website.
That's what i went for in the end was the Turner Motorsport plates. I think you can also use the M3 top mounts which are also offset, though would suggest getting the re-enforcement plate and strut brace to strengthen the turret tops.Would you mind sending a link for where you sourced the top mounts that suit the KW's? I can only find the non-M3 fixed plates on the Turner website.
I only went with the Turner parts as I'd already replaced the top mounts.
You do get a little adjustment with the fixed camber plates, and it's enough to dial in the additional camber you need and balance out the setup.
As for rear top mounts, i went with the Powerflex items as they come with all the parts including a re-enforcement plate that's about double the thickness of the Z3 versions.
Just a small update.
Due to head out to Goodwood tomorrow for all 4 days, and finally needed to get a good phone mount.
A friend found a good one and was impressed with the quality, they're 2 piece and made by Brodit.
Clutch and driver's seat are to be done in the next few weeks , as the current driver's seat has to come out to have some repairs on the leather later this year.
Due to head out to Goodwood tomorrow for all 4 days, and finally needed to get a good phone mount.
A friend found a good one and was impressed with the quality, they're 2 piece and made by Brodit.
Clutch and driver's seat are to be done in the next few weeks , as the current driver's seat has to come out to have some repairs on the leather later this year.
Enjoy Goodwood, I’ll be there on Sunday. If you haven’t been before BMW owners get free drinks at the BMW stand.
When you’re doing the clutch I’d recommend a new prop coupling and prop centre bearing. They’re not expensive and often found to be worn when the gearbox is out. I’ve gone for Febi parts, they make the couplings for BMW. I’ve put an uprated prop coupling on, used on the E60 535d amongst others, it doesn’t fit the petrol E46 unfortunately.
When you’re doing the clutch I’d recommend a new prop coupling and prop centre bearing. They’re not expensive and often found to be worn when the gearbox is out. I’ve gone for Febi parts, they make the couplings for BMW. I’ve put an uprated prop coupling on, used on the E60 535d amongst others, it doesn’t fit the petrol E46 unfortunately.
Edited by helix402 on Wednesday 3rd July 19:45
Edited by helix402 on Wednesday 3rd July 20:15
Goodwood was excellent last week, but not without a casualty.
I'd added my dad to the insurance so we could share the driving and on the way back from Goodwood on Thursday, we were going down the back roads to get to our hotel.. and a pheasant flies out from a hedgerow..
Almighty bang, we both look around to see what's happened, and this greets us.
One trip to Euros later and a fresh glass, it was repaired.. no other damage thankfully.
Just getting the last few parts for the gearbox / clutch work coming in this week.
I'd added my dad to the insurance so we could share the driving and on the way back from Goodwood on Thursday, we were going down the back roads to get to our hotel.. and a pheasant flies out from a hedgerow..
Almighty bang, we both look around to see what's happened, and this greets us.
One trip to Euros later and a fresh glass, it was repaired.. no other damage thankfully.
Just getting the last few parts for the gearbox / clutch work coming in this week.
Ok been a while since I've updated this so a brief one today.
Clutch came out recently. and not really surprised in that the duel mass was rather dead, the clutch friction plate was also well worn but serviceable.
It was better to change it now before things broke.
The gearbox had it's indent kit fixed which involved going to a specialist and the box ending up having a partial rebuild, and finding out i'd put the wrong oil in on it, so having to resolve that this weekend after putting in some Castrol 75w90, it turns out it should have ATF in the box.. ah..
Also needing replacement was the rear tyres, which turned into a saga as Michelin no longer produce Pilot Sport 4's in the right size (255/35/R18) if anyone was curious and after a lot of digging around, i had to go with the Super sports instead, thanks to Camskill for having a set in stock.
Finally I've gotten around to placing the deposit down with Jack at Royal Steering wheels, and should have an update on that in September.
Clutch came out recently. and not really surprised in that the duel mass was rather dead, the clutch friction plate was also well worn but serviceable.
It was better to change it now before things broke.
The gearbox had it's indent kit fixed which involved going to a specialist and the box ending up having a partial rebuild, and finding out i'd put the wrong oil in on it, so having to resolve that this weekend after putting in some Castrol 75w90, it turns out it should have ATF in the box.. ah..
Also needing replacement was the rear tyres, which turned into a saga as Michelin no longer produce Pilot Sport 4's in the right size (255/35/R18) if anyone was curious and after a lot of digging around, i had to go with the Super sports instead, thanks to Camskill for having a set in stock.
Finally I've gotten around to placing the deposit down with Jack at Royal Steering wheels, and should have an update on that in September.
Sf_Manta said:
Finally I've gotten around to placing the deposit down with Jack at Royal Steering wheels, and should have an update on that in September.
Something I'll be doing next month too; sort it when I'm back from being away etc 
This is what I had in a previous E39 and I'll be going down the same route, but with no paddles etc
LanceRS said:
Were you able to find out why Michelin no longer make the PS 4s? I shall need some at some point.
You will love your recovered steering wheel. I went for the Nappa leather and cannot believe the difference.
Unfortunately not, Michelin are just not manufacturing them, a lot of stock went out to the USA apparently, and they've not rerun the size.You will love your recovered steering wheel. I went for the Nappa leather and cannot believe the difference.
Camskill still have a stock of the supersports at least, so if I was you, order a set before they vanish!
Sf_Manta said:
Ok been a while since I've updated this so a brief one today.
Clutch came out recently. and not really surprised in that the duel mass was rather dead, the clutch friction plate was also well worn but serviceable.
It was better to change it now before things broke.
The gearbox had it's indent kit fixed which involved going to a specialist and the box ending up having a partial rebuild, and finding out i'd put the wrong oil in on it, so having to resolve that this weekend after putting in some Castrol 75w90, it turns out it should have ATF in the box.. ah..
Also needing replacement was the rear tyres, which turned into a saga as Michelin no longer produce Pilot Sport 4's in the right size (255/35/R18) if anyone was curious and after a lot of digging around, i had to go with the Super sports instead, thanks to Camskill for having a set in stock.
Finally I've gotten around to placing the deposit down with Jack at Royal Steering wheels, and should have an update on that in September.
Did you ever consider a lightweight single mass flywheel with sprung clutch. I believe they really transform the way the engine revs.Clutch came out recently. and not really surprised in that the duel mass was rather dead, the clutch friction plate was also well worn but serviceable.
It was better to change it now before things broke.
The gearbox had it's indent kit fixed which involved going to a specialist and the box ending up having a partial rebuild, and finding out i'd put the wrong oil in on it, so having to resolve that this weekend after putting in some Castrol 75w90, it turns out it should have ATF in the box.. ah..
Also needing replacement was the rear tyres, which turned into a saga as Michelin no longer produce Pilot Sport 4's in the right size (255/35/R18) if anyone was curious and after a lot of digging around, i had to go with the Super sports instead, thanks to Camskill for having a set in stock.
Finally I've gotten around to placing the deposit down with Jack at Royal Steering wheels, and should have an update on that in September.
I believe they do chatter at idle but it's worth doing anyway.
M4CK 1 said:
Did you ever consider a lightweight single mass flywheel with sprung clutch. I believe they really transform the way the engine revs.
I believe they do chatter at idle but it's worth doing anyway.
Might want to read back in the thread, an ECS Single mass flywheel and Sachs M5 clutch went in I believe they do chatter at idle but it's worth doing anyway.
As for the Alpina intake manifold, there'd be a lot of work to convert it.. moreso if it's M52 based so nothing will match up.
Sf_Manta said:
M4CK 1 said:
Did you ever consider a lightweight single mass flywheel with sprung clutch. I believe they really transform the way the engine revs.
I believe they do chatter at idle but it's worth doing anyway.
Might want to read back in the thread, an ECS Single mass flywheel and Sachs M5 clutch went in I believe they do chatter at idle but it's worth doing anyway.
As for the Alpina intake manifold, there'd be a lot of work to convert it.. moreso if it's M52 based so nothing will match up.
It was better to change it now before things broke"
You mentioned that your dual mass was rather dead so presumed you were taking about the flywheel.
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