Building "Thor"
Discussion
A bit of a frustrating day today.
The fittings on the engine where you want to put things like oil pressure and water temperature gauge sensors are all BSF fittings. They are not normal stock items at local fitting suppliers. They convert to BSP - mainly 3/8 and 1/2 BSP fittings for hoses and most gauges I have a metric............bugger.
I have acquired BSF dies, but I am having to make the fittings for various things.
Managed the temperature, oil pressure senders and the pre-oiler pump but I have yet to sort the improved oil supply to the heads when the engine is running. If this mod is not done the cams get chewed up very quickly due to lack of oil supply at tickover and low revs. Remember that the original engine was designed to be airborne in less than 8 mins from start-up and then run at 2000+rpm.
Got to source the 24v 200amp starter solenoid tomorrow and some wires.
Lots of little things to do, but they are the things that eat time.......
Paul
PS.
For the car fitment I will attempt to tidy up the fittings but time is against me at the moment.
The fittings on the engine where you want to put things like oil pressure and water temperature gauge sensors are all BSF fittings. They are not normal stock items at local fitting suppliers. They convert to BSP - mainly 3/8 and 1/2 BSP fittings for hoses and most gauges I have a metric............bugger.
I have acquired BSF dies, but I am having to make the fittings for various things.
Managed the temperature, oil pressure senders and the pre-oiler pump but I have yet to sort the improved oil supply to the heads when the engine is running. If this mod is not done the cams get chewed up very quickly due to lack of oil supply at tickover and low revs. Remember that the original engine was designed to be airborne in less than 8 mins from start-up and then run at 2000+rpm.
Got to source the 24v 200amp starter solenoid tomorrow and some wires.
Lots of little things to do, but they are the things that eat time.......
Paul
PS.
For the car fitment I will attempt to tidy up the fittings but time is against me at the moment.
Storer said:
Got to source the 24v 200amp starter solenoid tomorrow and some wires.
I know you're an ebay fan, so something like this?http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-24V-24-v-VOLT-UNIVER...
The engine in the Centurion tank was a RR/Rover Meteor but the design was very, very similar to the Merlin in the Spitfire and was designed for the Schneider Cup pre-WWII racing seaplanes.
Most (the majority) of the parts in this engine are the same as a Merlin. There was no time or money to make a special engine for the tanks.
The tanks ate the engines if they spent much time idling. The aircraft were not expected to last long (measured in weeks rather than years) are aircraft losses were high and when running they were turning between 2000 and 2700rpm.
There are many different components bolted to the outside of a Meteor when compared to a Merlin, but a lot of the insides are the same, or at least the same design.
Paul
Most (the majority) of the parts in this engine are the same as a Merlin. There was no time or money to make a special engine for the tanks.
The tanks ate the engines if they spent much time idling. The aircraft were not expected to last long (measured in weeks rather than years) are aircraft losses were high and when running they were turning between 2000 and 2700rpm.
There are many different components bolted to the outside of a Meteor when compared to a Merlin, but a lot of the insides are the same, or at least the same design.
Paul
ARAF said:
I know you're an ebay fan, so something like this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-24V-24-v-VOLT-UNIVER...
Purchased one of those 30mins ago from a supplier who offers delivery on Wednesday (at extra cost) so I like your thinking. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-24V-24-v-VOLT-UNIVER...
Thanks for the thought though. If you find something I may need in future then please post it.
Paul
Storer said:
The engine in the Centurion tank was a RR/Rover Meteor but the design was very, very similar to the Merlin in the Spitfire and was designed for the Schneider Cup pre-WWII racing seaplanes.
Most (the majority) of the parts in this engine are the same as a Merlin. There was no time or money to make a special engine for the tanks.
The tanks ate the engines if they spent much time idling. The aircraft were not expected to last long (measured in weeks rather than years) are aircraft losses were high and when running they were turning between 2000 and 2700rpm.
There are many different components bolted to the outside of a Meteor when compared to a Merlin, but a lot of the insides are the same, or at least the same design.
Paul
paulMost (the majority) of the parts in this engine are the same as a Merlin. There was no time or money to make a special engine for the tanks.
The tanks ate the engines if they spent much time idling. The aircraft were not expected to last long (measured in weeks rather than years) are aircraft losses were high and when running they were turning between 2000 and 2700rpm.
There are many different components bolted to the outside of a Meteor when compared to a Merlin, but a lot of the insides are the same, or at least the same design.
Paul
that's stretching the development of the Merlin a little, the Schneider engines where 'R' engines and didn't share much with anything, they where very high performance race engines with a running life of something like 20 minutes - they ran that hot that the entire outside of the main body of the race planes was a radiator! (a very dim memory suggests that the heads and blocks where cast as one, so no head gasket problems)
RR did learn an awful lot from the 'R' engines such at material strengths etc.
I read an article once about the development of the meteor, RR would collect up all the 'war-weary' Merlins and new engine parts that had failed inspections, all the staff at the factory where encouraged to work 'after hours' stripping crashed and blown up Merlins to harvest parts which 'might' be useful - these would then be cleaned and used in the less stressed Meteors - so all the secretaries etc would try and get a few hours a day in pulling old Merlins down to the component parts!!
these parts where ideal for the far less stressed Meteor, as if something went wrong the crew just got out and stood about until the tank was collected and re-engine - who-ever thought of this must have been a genius - it must have saved the war effort so much money, it was one of those examples of sideways thinking that people at Rolls Royce seemed to be so good at during the war period - they really where on the top of their game at that time.
there are some great books written by Alec Harvey-Bailey and printed by the Rolls Royce foundation that go into great depth about the performance, history and specs of the merlin and meteor - they make great (if a little heavy going) reading
Storer said:
Managed the temperature, oil pressure senders and the pre-oiler pump but I have yet to sort the improved oil supply to the heads when the engine is running. If this mod is not done the cams get chewed up very quickly due to lack of oil supply at tickover and low revs. Remember that the original engine was designed to be airborne in less than 8 mins from start-up and then run at 2000+rpm.
There are two problems with lubrication - one is the length of time the oil takes to get up to the farthest parts of the camshaft when the engine is turned (the temperature of oil plays a big part - up to 7 minutes for a Griffon depending on temperature, so I would expect similar for a Merlin/Meteor) - the other problem is the nature of the high/low pressure oil supply meaning a low pressure at hot idle can cause starvation at the cams. Fitting a pre-oiler pump is a very good idea, we use it before every start on the Griffons. We're told if you run with less than seven days between runs you shouldn't need it, but if you have one fitted its better safe than sorry.
Do check the state of the cam follower fingers before you run the engine. They are chrome plated, but when they start to wear or pit with age they act like a cutting tool on a lathe and will chew up a cam in minutes... and I'm not exaggerating.
There are modifications you can do such as having tungsten carbide inserts into the end of the finger followers, but the one of best by far is a small drilling into the camshaft to improve lubrication. Packard had a mod on the Merlins where an .040 hole was drilled on the leading part of the lobes to increase oil to the finger/lobe interface on the Merlin cams.
Edited by richw_82 on Tuesday 17th December 11:24
richw_82 said:
No, they're a cam and finger mechanism same as on the Merlin.
ah, its just that the RR phantom 3 motor was a v12 that had hydraulic tappets and was designed and built using much of what they had learnt in the war.the problem was the RR hadn't taken into account what would happen when the cars where a few years old and would get into the hands of people who where not as disciplined as they should have been with the servicing, oil changes and quality of oils used (as the engine had to be almost treated like a aero engine with the care and quality of oils) once the filters got clogged up with thick black old oil, the engines just consumed themselves and they got a terrible reputation in period for been duds, its only now with modern filters, oils and understanding that people are finally starting to appreciate them
sorry, I love pre war Rolls, Derby Bentleys, and the Rolls aero engines, I used to be obsessed with them when I was a kid, which is why I love this build!!!
With regards to the hydraulic tappets, it was probably the wear issues that made them try something different for the car!
I think the later Meteor engines (4B?) got a different design of finger that had a roller rather than a pad. Cams can get reprofiled but there's not many good ones about, so the prices are increasing; more so for aircraft engines. I'll try and find a photo of the wear we got on one of our Griffons a while back... it was pretty brutal.
I think the later Meteor engines (4B?) got a different design of finger that had a roller rather than a pad. Cams can get reprofiled but there's not many good ones about, so the prices are increasing; more so for aircraft engines. I'll try and find a photo of the wear we got on one of our Griffons a while back... it was pretty brutal.
A bit more info about my engine.
The one I have fitted to my chassis buck is a Meteor MK4B and has not been run since it was rebuilt in 1989. I have the information sheet in the special holder attached to the head.
I have not stripped the engine but the exhaust manifold and valves are nice and sparkly clean with a sheen of oil. I have another engine in a similar condition in it's original crate.
I have another MK4B and a MK3, both turn over. I also have another 2 engines for spares/repair.
I am aware of the drilling mod and will probably do it prior to fitting the engine in the car.
I am always interested to hear what other owners of these mighty engines have done to make them more reliable/longer lasting.
Paul
The one I have fitted to my chassis buck is a Meteor MK4B and has not been run since it was rebuilt in 1989. I have the information sheet in the special holder attached to the head.
I have not stripped the engine but the exhaust manifold and valves are nice and sparkly clean with a sheen of oil. I have another engine in a similar condition in it's original crate.
I have another MK4B and a MK3, both turn over. I also have another 2 engines for spares/repair.
I am aware of the drilling mod and will probably do it prior to fitting the engine in the car.
I am always interested to hear what other owners of these mighty engines have done to make them more reliable/longer lasting.
Paul
Very good. 
I built and painted the control panel today.
Also started fitting gauges and switches this evening along with the starter solenoid that arrived today from Ireland (36 hours after ordering!!!).
This is the area I feel least comfortable doing. It is something invisible....... and doesn't have the same logic as hydraulics/mechanics. I know it is because I have never bothered to learn the basics and this is an area I need to rectify in the near future, but for now I will have to wing it!!!
I will post some pics when I have assembled the bits.
I am nearly at a point where I can bring things to life. If all goes well there will be video before Christmas.
Paul
Also started fitting gauges and switches this evening along with the starter solenoid that arrived today from Ireland (36 hours after ordering!!!).
This is the area I feel least comfortable doing. It is something invisible....... and doesn't have the same logic as hydraulics/mechanics. I know it is because I have never bothered to learn the basics and this is an area I need to rectify in the near future, but for now I will have to wing it!!!
I will post some pics when I have assembled the bits.
I am nearly at a point where I can bring things to life. If all goes well there will be video before Christmas.
Paul
Where abouts are you based? if it's local I could offer some help on the electrical side if you like 
Theres a single main principle to electrics though, if you imagine the electricity is smoke within pipes, when the smoke comes out, it all stops working, so therefore electricity must be the same as smoke
Theres a single main principle to electrics though, if you imagine the electricity is smoke within pipes, when the smoke comes out, it all stops working, so therefore electricity must be the same as smoke
EddyP said:
Where abouts are you based? if it's local I could offer some help on the electrical side if you like
Theres a single main principle to electrics though, if you imagine the electricity is smoke within pipes, when the smoke comes out, it all stops working, so therefore electricity must be the same as smoke
Meteors being proper English engines will require proper English smoke in the wires, try this...Theres a single main principle to electrics though, if you imagine the electricity is smoke within pipes, when the smoke comes out, it all stops working, so therefore electricity must be the same as smoke
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