480 bhp and 1360 kg Saab 9000 Aero
Discussion
227bhp said:
If you're running 630s you aren't pushing out 500bhp that's for sure.
The grip issues in first and second can be tamed by fitting a gear dependent boost controller perhaps?
Yeh this has made 506 bhp at 2.0 bar (currently 1.6 bar), maybe it was on bigger injectors back then will have to find out. Next year I'll get a billet GTX blade and put some 875s on.The grip issues in first and second can be tamed by fitting a gear dependent boost controller perhaps?
Edited by 227bhp on Friday 20th October 16:22
227bhp said:
There is more to it too, when you wind the fuel pressure up the injector has to try and open itself against that pressure, that messes with the timing of the injector and makes them sluggish to react.
A 630 injector will make approx 460bhp @ the fly if used flat out at 100% and the FP cranked up to 4 bar.
Unlike saying the fairies at the bottom of the garden only come out when there is no-one around, fuel injector sizes have irrefutable maths to show us what is going on.
Yeh it only weighs 1360 kg so around 450 would make sense considering the 100-200 km/h time of 8.6. Dyno in Dec.A 630 injector will make approx 460bhp @ the fly if used flat out at 100% and the FP cranked up to 4 bar.
Unlike saying the fairies at the bottom of the garden only come out when there is no-one around, fuel injector sizes have irrefutable maths to show us what is going on.
227bhp said:
There is more to it too, when you wind the fuel pressure up the injector has to try and open itself against that pressure, that messes with the timing of the injector and makes them sluggish to react.
A 630 injector will make approx 460bhp @ the fly if used flat out at 100% and the FP cranked up to 4 bar.
Unlike saying the fairies at the bottom of the garden only come out when there is no-one around, fuel injector sizes have irrefutable maths to show us what is going on.
What you've said here must be incorrect.A 630 injector will make approx 460bhp @ the fly if used flat out at 100% and the FP cranked up to 4 bar.
Unlike saying the fairies at the bottom of the garden only come out when there is no-one around, fuel injector sizes have irrefutable maths to show us what is going on.
I can confirm it made 506 bhp with the 630s installed:
227bhp said:
Initially I wasn't commenting on your car or posts, it was the other one, but no this just confirms their dyno reads a mile out and they hardly had a good reputation anyhow.
A dyno is essentially a tool for tuning and mapping of engines, as a comparator (from one to another) they are pointless as there are so many factors involved which can skew the results.
Look at the other figures, they claim an ambient temp of 15.3 yet the intake temp was 10.8, er, how was that and where on the intake was it taken?
Also the guy claims to have sat in the car stationary whilst it did 185mph, this I raise my eyebrow to.
Put it on a Dyno Dynamics or a hub dyno and see what it will do, although before that Google 'Injector CC calculator' for a rough idea.
A thread you might be interested in here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Ok fair enough, I'm going to take it to street racers rolling road in December which is the same dyno that the 9-5 made 340 bhp 520 NM. The seat of my pants says this 9k is MUCH quicker, 450 sounds about right. We'll see.A dyno is essentially a tool for tuning and mapping of engines, as a comparator (from one to another) they are pointless as there are so many factors involved which can skew the results.
Look at the other figures, they claim an ambient temp of 15.3 yet the intake temp was 10.8, er, how was that and where on the intake was it taken?
Also the guy claims to have sat in the car stationary whilst it did 185mph, this I raise my eyebrow to.
Put it on a Dyno Dynamics or a hub dyno and see what it will do, although before that Google 'Injector CC calculator' for a rough idea.
A thread you might be interested in here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Car is back from mechanic, having had the following work done:
- Welded inlet manifold
- Baffled sump replaced with stock sump and re-sealed; baffled sump had chemiweld all over it and was beyond repair. Moving parts were apparently hitting the sump. No wonder it was leaking!
- New NGK BCR8ES spark plugs gapped to 0.9mm
- New indicator and brake light bulbs as some were out
- New brake light lense (driver's side)
- Fresh oil and filter
It's idling beautifully so I assume it was the porous inlet manifold. It's much smoother now yet just as savage.
Next weekend I'll be picking up and installing better condition rear left door, front right fender and wooden dashboard.
Future plans:
- Fit LSD
- New offside SKF wheel bearing
- Investigate squeaking sound from some engine belt (noise coming from front right)
- Drive the thing!
- Welded inlet manifold
- Baffled sump replaced with stock sump and re-sealed; baffled sump had chemiweld all over it and was beyond repair. Moving parts were apparently hitting the sump. No wonder it was leaking!
- New NGK BCR8ES spark plugs gapped to 0.9mm
- New indicator and brake light bulbs as some were out
- New brake light lense (driver's side)
- Fresh oil and filter
It's idling beautifully so I assume it was the porous inlet manifold. It's much smoother now yet just as savage.
Next weekend I'll be picking up and installing better condition rear left door, front right fender and wooden dashboard.
Future plans:
- Fit LSD
- New offside SKF wheel bearing
- Investigate squeaking sound from some engine belt (noise coming from front right)
- Drive the thing!
New brake light lense:
Welded inlet manifold:
Stock, resealed oil sump:
And no, that isn't oil pouring out in the picture above! It's some random hose, just trying to find out if it's important and whether I can just chop it off.
While it's holding oil nicely now, it seems to be spewing oil onto the bonnet although not much. Is this to be expected from a 450+ bhp 2.4 at full chat?
Will keep a very close eye on the oil level.
Welded inlet manifold:
Stock, resealed oil sump:
And no, that isn't oil pouring out in the picture above! It's some random hose, just trying to find out if it's important and whether I can just chop it off.
While it's holding oil nicely now, it seems to be spewing oil onto the bonnet although not much. Is this to be expected from a 450+ bhp 2.4 at full chat?
Will keep a very close eye on the oil level.
CornedBeef said:
I spent far too long trying to figure out if that was oil pouring out, only to scroll down to the next picture for you to explain it!
As an aside, love what you've done with this mate.
Nice one thanks, yeh just the oil breather pipe but I did sAs an aside, love what you've done with this mate.
t myself when I first saw it, was like 'when's it going to stop pouring out!?!'; I don't mind the odd little job that needs doing but ideally i don't want to be taking it to the workshop more than once every 3 months. I reckon £1k a year on maintenance is justifiable for a 22 year old hatchback that'll do 60-100 mph in 4 seconds.madwrx said:
not sure a grand a year will be enough-depending on how many little jobs you can do yourself- hard driven fwd car-reckon a gearbox a year with shafts and wheel bearings taking a hammering reguarly at least, without a host of little niggles that will crop up-
You're probably right, the problem with a car like this isn't just the maintenance it's the constant temptation for ongoing upgrades.On the plus side it's pretty depreciation-proof and not many left now.
madwrx said:
generally you,ll know whether the engine is near the numbers if the chosen turbo and setup will take the timing(fuel permitting) -
most mappers that map the same engine all the time have a good idea of power and will ignore what the RR says and just use it to test the tuning as they go ,bit hard to tune a big power car on the road anyway- 460-480 sounds about right for a non billet 3071 flat out ,never seen one make 500 ,they dont usually flow enough for that -you,d need a newer gtx front comp wheel for that i reckon.
Ok but let's say a b234 2.3 with a GT3071r and no other mods will make 450 bhp.most mappers that map the same engine all the time have a good idea of power and will ignore what the RR says and just use it to test the tuning as they go ,bit hard to tune a big power car on the road anyway- 460-480 sounds about right for a non billet 3071 flat out ,never seen one make 500 ,they dont usually flow enough for that -you,d need a newer gtx front comp wheel for that i reckon.
This 9k is bored to 2.4, has a bigger inlet and more aggressive Maptun 268 cams.
Am I assuming that the above mods yield no extra power?
Edited by Nutty9000 on Thursday 2nd November 22:35
xjay1337 said:
He's saying you will not have enough fuel based on the 630s for that power.
Who knows.
Either way it's pretty quick.
Given that then, the cams and bigger engine need 875s or even ID1000s to get the best out of them. Just a shame it struggles to put this much power down, let alone all that extra power.Who knows.
Either way it's pretty quick.
227bhp said:
We're going round in circles here stating the same things over and over again.
I have seen just over 500 squeezed out of a GT3076, but that was flat out.
Your 2.4 litres is actually consuming the fuel and air the turbo is compressing, if it's demanding more than the injectors and turbo can supply then unless you fit larger ones thats it. That is why you see your boost pressure tailing off after a certain point as RPM increases - it simply can't keep up demand . Taking it to 3ltrs will only see a very similar power output....
Traction control in a high power fwd car is quite simple, as pointed out before fit a gear related boost controller then you can lower the boost in first and second, give it more or full boost in 3, 4 and 5 if it takes it.
There is no point waving your cock around saying you've got xyz bhp when you get beaten off the lights by a Micra.
I don't think a gear-related boost controller is needed, it's mapped for 1 bar in 2nd gear then goes up to 1.7 bar in 3rd+.I have seen just over 500 squeezed out of a GT3076, but that was flat out.
Your 2.4 litres is actually consuming the fuel and air the turbo is compressing, if it's demanding more than the injectors and turbo can supply then unless you fit larger ones thats it. That is why you see your boost pressure tailing off after a certain point as RPM increases - it simply can't keep up demand . Taking it to 3ltrs will only see a very similar power output....
Traction control in a high power fwd car is quite simple, as pointed out before fit a gear related boost controller then you can lower the boost in first and second, give it more or full boost in 3, 4 and 5 if it takes it.
There is no point waving your cock around saying you've got xyz bhp when you get beaten off the lights by a Micra.
Took a lovely (yet torrential) drive out to Norwich this morning to meet Frank Cragg from Frank's Autos to get a load of parts off a friend's comparably immaculate 9000 CSE breaker, in the same Silver - blemish-free dashboard, vgc dent-free rear left door, rust-free front left fender, non-rattly indicator stalk, speaker cover, indicator relay, couple of other little bits and pieces.
Frank and his wing man Mark are top blokes and it was a pleasure to meet them. The amount of knowledge they have on Saabs is unparalleled and they went through the car with me with a 'fine toothcomb' to search for faults, with incredible attention to detail; very many of which were discovered. Not many mechanics let you spend the day at their workshop to have a proper chillout whilst working on your car, I'll be going back there's no doubt about that!
Arrival:
Breaker car, ready to be gutted:
Inspection begins:
Safe to say this fender was past its use-by date:
What lay beneath:
While it isn't stainless steel like the 9-5's system, the exhaust is pretty robust and has had some welding done recently:
New dent-free door and front fender on:
Much better!
Repair of indicator/hazard lights relay:
Didn't get chance to fit the uncracked dash and un-rattly indicator stalk this time; they can wait until my next visit:
Not much left on the breaker now:
Over the course of the day Frank diagnosed the following parts which need attention, starting with the most urgent:
- Brake lines need replacing
- Front jacking points need welding work
- Intermediary shaft tube is dented slightly
- New SKF wheel bearings
- Replace fuel filter
- Recondition and repair rear oversill (both sides)
- Lower engine mounts - replace
- Gearbox mount has sunk
- Helicoil sump thread and seal properly with Vauxhall fluid
- New front anti rollbar links including bolts
- Assister springs for front suspension; or correct shock absorbers, not inserts
- Check if springs and shocks are a matched pair
- Gripping washers for front strut brace
- New anti rollbar links
- Get slam panel off breaker
Car averaged a genuine 32 mpg over the entire journey (ever the optimist, the onboard digital display read 57 mpg
) , which was mostly mid-speed cruising with the occasional full throttle. Amazing really considering the age and performance. And when I say performance it's just silly, silly, silly fast.
Frank and his wing man Mark are top blokes and it was a pleasure to meet them. The amount of knowledge they have on Saabs is unparalleled and they went through the car with me with a 'fine toothcomb' to search for faults, with incredible attention to detail; very many of which were discovered. Not many mechanics let you spend the day at their workshop to have a proper chillout whilst working on your car, I'll be going back there's no doubt about that!
Arrival:
Breaker car, ready to be gutted:
Inspection begins:
Safe to say this fender was past its use-by date:
What lay beneath:
While it isn't stainless steel like the 9-5's system, the exhaust is pretty robust and has had some welding done recently:
New dent-free door and front fender on:
Much better!
Repair of indicator/hazard lights relay:
Didn't get chance to fit the uncracked dash and un-rattly indicator stalk this time; they can wait until my next visit:
Not much left on the breaker now:
Over the course of the day Frank diagnosed the following parts which need attention, starting with the most urgent:
- Brake lines need replacing
- Front jacking points need welding work
- Intermediary shaft tube is dented slightly
- New SKF wheel bearings
- Replace fuel filter
- Recondition and repair rear oversill (both sides)
- Lower engine mounts - replace
- Gearbox mount has sunk
- Helicoil sump thread and seal properly with Vauxhall fluid
- New front anti rollbar links including bolts
- Assister springs for front suspension; or correct shock absorbers, not inserts
- Check if springs and shocks are a matched pair
- Gripping washers for front strut brace
- New anti rollbar links
- Get slam panel off breaker
Car averaged a genuine 32 mpg over the entire journey (ever the optimist, the onboard digital display read 57 mpg
) , which was mostly mid-speed cruising with the occasional full throttle. Amazing really considering the age and performance. And when I say performance it's just silly, silly, silly fast.Edited by Nutty9000 on Saturday 4th November 23:33
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