Remember those sub £10k 996s from a few years ago?
Discussion
was8v said:
Fast Bug said:
Good thread 
Those 996.1 rear parking sensors really are awful looking things though, it's amazing they passed sign off!
I find them pretty useful though!Those 996.1 rear parking sensors really are awful looking things though, it's amazing they passed sign off!
I once contemplated buying a plain bumper and putting modern sensors in it. But then I came to my senses after spending on maintenance!
I've not got sensors and did a rear wiper delete, it can be tricky sometimes but it looks good
Great thread OP.
Without wanting to hijack your topic I’ve kept running costs of my 997.1 for almost 4 years now. I’ll post the details below to generate discussion/comparison. Not too dissimilar to yours; the main difference is that I’ve done no work to it myself as I’m clueless when it comes to car maintenance. My costs include £500+ car tax each year plus insurance. Only thing excluded is fuel.
Year 1 - £1618
Year 2 - £2773
Year 3 - £1045
Year 4 (not full year yet) - £572
Very cheap considering tax/insurance is about £900 each year. I’ve inevitably just had a bill for about £2k which will get done over the winter but it’s amazing how little these cars cost to run, especially when you consider there is no depreciation.
I can post specific costs but don’t want to hijack your thread. Well done and congrats on being able to do all the work yourself - I wish I was a bit more able under the bonnet.
Without wanting to hijack your topic I’ve kept running costs of my 997.1 for almost 4 years now. I’ll post the details below to generate discussion/comparison. Not too dissimilar to yours; the main difference is that I’ve done no work to it myself as I’m clueless when it comes to car maintenance. My costs include £500+ car tax each year plus insurance. Only thing excluded is fuel.
Year 1 - £1618
Year 2 - £2773
Year 3 - £1045
Year 4 (not full year yet) - £572
Very cheap considering tax/insurance is about £900 each year. I’ve inevitably just had a bill for about £2k which will get done over the winter but it’s amazing how little these cars cost to run, especially when you consider there is no depreciation.
I can post specific costs but don’t want to hijack your thread. Well done and congrats on being able to do all the work yourself - I wish I was a bit more able under the bonnet.
Year Four June 16 to June 17
About 4000 miles. Spent £1254.21
This year I enlisted help from a garage, which spiralled out of control.
I noted when changing the radiator that the fans only came on full speed. They are supposed to be two speed. This points to the fan resistor packs which are helpfully placed in the air flow (and crud) ahead of the rads. You can buy these for ££££ from Porsche or solder in big resistors from RS for £12.
Another oil change and another incredible bargain exhaust box for the other side from ebay - a 20k mile used one. I fitted it up when mine started blowing from the seams. Someone even bought my old ones in need of welding off me for more than I paid for this on ebay.
The final original suspension arms that were left on the whole car- rear coffin and forked arms were replaced due to a knock from the rear. I had a local place fit these as I was short on time and cutting those eccentric bolts out is a miserable job. I figured do the lot rather than wait till next month for the next knock to start.
I then lost power steering driving it. I traced the leak to the corroded out hard lines on the steering rack. Porsche would have you swap the rack out, but the lines are available for about £37 from a guy who makes them up.
Rather than drop the subframe myself, again I was short on time, and didn't fancy grappling with the corroded fittings. I had a local garage do the job.
There was a problem here - the plastic coating on the end of steering column splines crumbled away when the rack was dropped. The early cars like mine had a single piece column - meaning the whole column was needed. Later cars have a 2 piece column you can just drop the end off. Luckliy the 996 shares its steering column with the Boxster and there are loads of cheap ones in scrap yards. But the labour cost to swap the steering column
I also had them replace the very corroded brake line that runs across the car from the NSF wing to the OSF caliper while the subframe was out the way, including flexi all the way to the caliper.
CHECK YOUR BRAKE LINES PEOPLE, especially the ones you and the MOT tester can't see across in front of the steering rack and over the gearbox.
Hmmm, this not spending money tactic is not working. But I cheated this year and paid someone else to do some work.
About 4000 miles. Spent £1254.21
This year I enlisted help from a garage, which spiralled out of control.
I noted when changing the radiator that the fans only came on full speed. They are supposed to be two speed. This points to the fan resistor packs which are helpfully placed in the air flow (and crud) ahead of the rads. You can buy these for ££££ from Porsche or solder in big resistors from RS for £12.
Another oil change and another incredible bargain exhaust box for the other side from ebay - a 20k mile used one. I fitted it up when mine started blowing from the seams. Someone even bought my old ones in need of welding off me for more than I paid for this on ebay.
The final original suspension arms that were left on the whole car- rear coffin and forked arms were replaced due to a knock from the rear. I had a local place fit these as I was short on time and cutting those eccentric bolts out is a miserable job. I figured do the lot rather than wait till next month for the next knock to start.
I then lost power steering driving it. I traced the leak to the corroded out hard lines on the steering rack. Porsche would have you swap the rack out, but the lines are available for about £37 from a guy who makes them up.
Rather than drop the subframe myself, again I was short on time, and didn't fancy grappling with the corroded fittings. I had a local garage do the job.
There was a problem here - the plastic coating on the end of steering column splines crumbled away when the rack was dropped. The early cars like mine had a single piece column - meaning the whole column was needed. Later cars have a 2 piece column you can just drop the end off. Luckliy the 996 shares its steering column with the Boxster and there are loads of cheap ones in scrap yards. But the labour cost to swap the steering column
I also had them replace the very corroded brake line that runs across the car from the NSF wing to the OSF caliper while the subframe was out the way, including flexi all the way to the caliper.
CHECK YOUR BRAKE LINES PEOPLE, especially the ones you and the MOT tester can't see across in front of the steering rack and over the gearbox.
Hmmm, this not spending money tactic is not working. But I cheated this year and paid someone else to do some work.
was8v said:
I'm not sure it's fragile per se.
You have to remember that it was 14 years old and 110k miles. Suspension bushes and rubber parts do age due to exposure and will wear out.
The Aircon pipe is a bs design running close to jacking Point. The Aircon compressor is the same as an Audi part, I was maybe unlucky?
One costly design issue is the ball joints are moulded into alloy arms. You can't just bolt in a ten quid ball joint.
The car was high days and holidays for the PO. I pressed it into daily service.
I remember having a 15 year old golf MK2 GTi. I was constantly replacing things on that in the same manner.
I think it's immaterial how expensive it was new. Nothing built to a cost is hewn from granite.
Thanks for your answer.You have to remember that it was 14 years old and 110k miles. Suspension bushes and rubber parts do age due to exposure and will wear out.
The Aircon pipe is a bs design running close to jacking Point. The Aircon compressor is the same as an Audi part, I was maybe unlucky?
One costly design issue is the ball joints are moulded into alloy arms. You can't just bolt in a ten quid ball joint.
The car was high days and holidays for the PO. I pressed it into daily service.
I remember having a 15 year old golf MK2 GTi. I was constantly replacing things on that in the same manner.
I think it's immaterial how expensive it was new. Nothing built to a cost is hewn from granite.
Edited by was8v on Tuesday 6th November 19:47
I guess it's not a lot to spend on a favourite hobby, especially as it looks like you love getting your hands dirty.
croyde said:
Thanks for your answer.
I guess it's not a lot to spend on a favourite hobby, especially as it looks like you love getting your hands dirty.
Lol if it wasn't my favourite hobby before, it seemingly became my favorutie hobby.I guess it's not a lot to spend on a favourite hobby, especially as it looks like you love getting your hands dirty.
To be honest, I never really thought about how doing this level of maintenance would impact me as time gets more pressured as I get older. I think I will retire the car to "toy" status in a couple of years.
Lets face it, anyone running and relying on a 20 year car as a year round "daily" (albeit 2 days a week for me t the moment) needs their head examining.
Year Five June 17 to June 18
About 3000 miles. Spent £1711.80
Early this year I was a crossroads - sell the car or keep and make it better? The car was good, but there were a few things I had in the back of my mind that really needed sorted if I was keeping the car long term.
The clutch was getting heavy, a bit creaky on activation and the release bearing was dry and noisy, I noted a few rusty bits poking through here and there, it needed discs and pads in the near future, there was a couple of minor oil leaks, the remaining original brake lines weren't looking too healthy but were passable for MOT with no advisories. Par for the course on an old car really.
I chose to keep it and fix these things.
The usual service and MOT, including the exhaust clamp on the other side rotted already!
Crack on. I borrowed a car and SORNed the 996 for 2 months over winter.
Got it nice and high on axle stands and made tools:
Not that bad (yes its snowing and I took the gearbox out)
Ah theres one leak....RMS and IMS bearing cover. You can also see the AOS bellows are covered in oily mank from minor leak somewhere:
Home made cam lock tool and removed chain tensioners (these got new seals):
IMS bearing in all its glory. Seal removed as per current best practice. Bearing felt lovely and smooth, no play.
New RMS going in with borrowed tool (Elring are OE maker):
Flywheel (LUK OE maker) and SACHS (OE) clutch kit for a stonking price from CP4L:
New front gearbox mount bush went in with a borrowed home made tool:
Worn clutch slave pin had nearly worn through clutch arm hence the creakiness:
New updated 997 arm, pivot and bearing guide tube has been revised to remove squeeks, I also fitted a new SACHS (OE maker) brand slave:
Made up the over gearbox brake line, also replaced the one along the sill from the front. I chopped the old ones out in sections, then laid it out and copied them by bending the new one zip tied alongside with a pipe bending tool. The over gearbox line is quite hard to feed in around all the other stuff thats up there, I have no idea how you would fit a porsche supplied steel line without dropping loads of stuff or straightening the line. I used Cupra-nickel lines as they will take a bit of re-bending (unlike steel or copper) to get them into position. A job cheap in parts (~£20) but high in faff.
Whilst there I stuck a new AOS in as I heard of all the problems and wanted to button up any leaks. Its a PITA even with the gearbox off.
All back together with POR15'd braces and mounting brackets:
Beware of what lurks behind your arch liners and trim.
Inside of sills is not bad, I know MX5 owners that would kill for sills like this. Seems I got them just in time for a liberal dousing in cavity wax:
Snapped brake nipple repaired by local engineers:
I tried to bleed to brakes with my Gunsons bleeder that pushes fluid through from the reservoir. But I could just not get a decent pedal. By this time I had had enough of rolling around on the floor. Once all stiched up I drive it to a local garage to swap the discs and pads and bleed the brakes through with their vacuum bleeder that sucks fluid through from the nipple. I chose discs from Autodoc (discs are discs, right? Cast steel, round and flat - I painted the bells) and OE supplier Textar pads.
I also fitted a 997 shifter mechanism - this is great - halfway between a short shift and OE. Sharpens the throw up nicely. Especially since my old item had much more play in it.
Aux belt idler rollers were making a worn out noise so were replaced.
Hmmm an expensive year, but lots replaced for that money, and I got a handle on any rust issues. I dread to think what the labor would have been it took me so long.
But now I have a 911 that has had ALL new suspension arms and ALL rubber mounts, ALL new brake lines and consumables, and new clutch / flywheel and with the engine in such stonkingly good form (untouched) drives FAN-BLOOMING-TASTICALLY.
Yes I keep telling myself that.
I just wish I had done all that work up front. I.e. just bit the bullet and replaced the suspension and brakes when I bought it. Who knows what the old pads were, but the textar are a great improvement.
It really does drive well. An old saggy worn out 996 is a great drive. One like this is amazing, really it is.
About 3000 miles. Spent £1711.80
Early this year I was a crossroads - sell the car or keep and make it better? The car was good, but there were a few things I had in the back of my mind that really needed sorted if I was keeping the car long term.
The clutch was getting heavy, a bit creaky on activation and the release bearing was dry and noisy, I noted a few rusty bits poking through here and there, it needed discs and pads in the near future, there was a couple of minor oil leaks, the remaining original brake lines weren't looking too healthy but were passable for MOT with no advisories. Par for the course on an old car really.
I chose to keep it and fix these things.
The usual service and MOT, including the exhaust clamp on the other side rotted already!
Crack on. I borrowed a car and SORNed the 996 for 2 months over winter.
Got it nice and high on axle stands and made tools:
Not that bad (yes its snowing and I took the gearbox out)
Ah theres one leak....RMS and IMS bearing cover. You can also see the AOS bellows are covered in oily mank from minor leak somewhere:
Home made cam lock tool and removed chain tensioners (these got new seals):
IMS bearing in all its glory. Seal removed as per current best practice. Bearing felt lovely and smooth, no play.
New RMS going in with borrowed tool (Elring are OE maker):
Flywheel (LUK OE maker) and SACHS (OE) clutch kit for a stonking price from CP4L:
New front gearbox mount bush went in with a borrowed home made tool:
Worn clutch slave pin had nearly worn through clutch arm hence the creakiness:
New updated 997 arm, pivot and bearing guide tube has been revised to remove squeeks, I also fitted a new SACHS (OE maker) brand slave:
Made up the over gearbox brake line, also replaced the one along the sill from the front. I chopped the old ones out in sections, then laid it out and copied them by bending the new one zip tied alongside with a pipe bending tool. The over gearbox line is quite hard to feed in around all the other stuff thats up there, I have no idea how you would fit a porsche supplied steel line without dropping loads of stuff or straightening the line. I used Cupra-nickel lines as they will take a bit of re-bending (unlike steel or copper) to get them into position. A job cheap in parts (~£20) but high in faff.
Whilst there I stuck a new AOS in as I heard of all the problems and wanted to button up any leaks. Its a PITA even with the gearbox off.
All back together with POR15'd braces and mounting brackets:
Beware of what lurks behind your arch liners and trim.
Inside of sills is not bad, I know MX5 owners that would kill for sills like this. Seems I got them just in time for a liberal dousing in cavity wax:
Snapped brake nipple repaired by local engineers:
I tried to bleed to brakes with my Gunsons bleeder that pushes fluid through from the reservoir. But I could just not get a decent pedal. By this time I had had enough of rolling around on the floor. Once all stiched up I drive it to a local garage to swap the discs and pads and bleed the brakes through with their vacuum bleeder that sucks fluid through from the nipple. I chose discs from Autodoc (discs are discs, right? Cast steel, round and flat - I painted the bells) and OE supplier Textar pads.
I also fitted a 997 shifter mechanism - this is great - halfway between a short shift and OE. Sharpens the throw up nicely. Especially since my old item had much more play in it.
Aux belt idler rollers were making a worn out noise so were replaced.
Hmmm an expensive year, but lots replaced for that money, and I got a handle on any rust issues. I dread to think what the labor would have been it took me so long.
But now I have a 911 that has had ALL new suspension arms and ALL rubber mounts, ALL new brake lines and consumables, and new clutch / flywheel and with the engine in such stonkingly good form (untouched) drives FAN-BLOOMING-TASTICALLY.
Yes I keep telling myself that.
I just wish I had done all that work up front. I.e. just bit the bullet and replaced the suspension and brakes when I bought it. Who knows what the old pads were, but the textar are a great improvement.
It really does drive well. An old saggy worn out 996 is a great drive. One like this is amazing, really it is.
Edited by was8v on Thursday 8th November 10:49
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Amazing efforts and lordnonly knows what the ‘years bill’ would be if you were charged for that labour .....
Plus I got clutch, flywheel, bolts and RMS for £500 using "black friday" codes on CP4L this time last year. (the flywheel bolts and RMS were ordered through CP4L but were actually delivered by my local OPC).I've seen bills from specialists itemising those same parts at double the cost.
And bills from OPCs itemising the same parts costing 4x as much.
Beware of Porsche tax
was8v said:
croyde said:
Is such an originally expensive car really so fragile?
I ask out of genuine interest.
I'm not sure it's fragile per se.I ask out of genuine interest.
You have to remember that it was 14 years old and 110k miles. Suspension bushes and rubber parts do age due to exposure and will wear out.
The Aircon pipe is a bs design running close to jacking Point. The Aircon compressor is the same as an Audi part, I was maybe unlucky?
One costly design issue is the ball joints are moulded into alloy arms. You can't just bolt in a ten quid ball joint.
The car was high days and holidays for the PO. I pressed it into daily service.
I remember having a 15 year old golf MK2 GTi. I was constantly replacing things on that in the same manner.
I think it's immaterial how expensive it was new. Nothing built to a cost is hewn from granite.
Edited by was8v on Tuesday 6th November 19:47
Great work on this car OP, I'm taking it you've covered around 25k in it in your ownership? Your costs are far cheaper than I was expecting but ultimately down to your own skills and seeking out the right parts, I would of thought in the hands of a owner without the ability to get hands on the spend would total more than the purchase price and that's without being frivolous.
I have a similar mindset as you in terms of doing things myself (on top of believing that when it comes to something I have an interest in/own, as long as I have enough time it's unlikely anyone could do the same job with as much care/attention to detail as I can), as well as not accepting poor quality parts or extortionate prices for good ones! This can be a very time consuming way of looking at things but also rewarding, I expect on my current project which I've spent over 3k on, I could easily add another 2k on to that if I didn't work in this way.
So what are you thinking long term for the car now? Any driving goals or specific parts you'd like to replace/upgrade in the future?
daniel-5zjw7 said:
Great response.. always surprised how many people assume relatively old cars with a fair few miles under their wheels shouldn't require anything replacing and will complain that it's not good enough from a certain brand etc, when the reality is unless such a car has had a particularly large amount of recent investment you could make a case for replacing literally everything if you so wanted.
I think people expect a £15k 911 to be as reliable as the £10k 3 series they sold to fund it, not accounting for the fact the 996 is 13 years older.daniel-5zjw7 said:
Great work on this car OP, I'm taking it you've covered around 25k in it in your ownership?
We are on 136k miles now, so yeah 27k all conditions miles in 5 years.daniel-5zjw7 said:
I have a similar mindset as you in terms of doing things myself (on top of believing that when it comes to something I have an interest in/own, as long as I have enough time it's unlikely anyone could do the same job with as much care/attention to detail as I can), as well as not accepting poor quality parts or extortionate prices for good ones! This can be a very time consuming way of looking at things but also rewarding, I expect on my current project which I've spent over 3k on, I could easily add another 2k on to that if I didn't work in this way.
Yes. Case in point - my fuel filter (a major service item) was dated 2005
At its OPC service on 14/01/05 the car had 33479 miles. They should be changed every 60k. I hadn't changed it before because I assumed specialist and OPC major services would have changed it in the mean time.
Nope.
I've also pulled cabin filters and air filter out of all kinds of cars (FL2 most recently) with full histories that had obviously not been changed in many years.
This is why I service my own cars.
daniel-5zjw7 said:
So what are you thinking long term for the car now? Any driving goals or specific parts you'd like to replace/upgrade in the future?
I'm busy enough just maintaining it The paintwork is, er, 20 years old apart from the OSF wing and door which was painted previously. You couldn't tell when I bought the car, but now the paint has aged differently and you can see some difference. I try not to let it bother me as I use the car a lot and leave it parked wherever I want and rarely wash it, and think if I got it sprayed I would be much more wary of using it. It has the usual 996.1 rust behind the door catches from dissimilar metals which does need sorting really.
One of the previous owner changed the shocks which do still seem OK, but I might go down the route of a set of Konis for it one day. I don't really feel the need to "upgrade" it, Porsche got it pretty right for the usage it gets.
Slippydiff said:
That release bearing and those input shaft splines !! They're drier than a nun's crutch Little wonder the clutch was heavy, squeaky and not very smooth ...
Yes, probably wasn't that far off self destruction after 95,000 miles (old clutch disc was date stamped Oct 2003).
I take that to mean the latter owners had good mechanical sympathy!
Year six so far June 18 to June 19
About 1500 miles so far. Spent £289
996 is 20 years old this month, it passed another MOT with no advisories yesterday.
Had a stuck idle control valve, car was stalling during low speed manoeuvres - luckily I dismantled it and cleaned it up at zero cost.
Now its developed a squeeky dash, and the exhaust heat shields have gone rattly behind the rear bumper
Having a cheap year so far, lets not spoil it. Loving the car, using it 2 days a week now all weathers for 40 mile round trip commute.
£6731.92 in just over 5 years and 27k miles of ownership. I could easily double that if I was paying someone to fix it.
If I were to sell I think it would be a £12k or 13k advert, given a slight increase in value and all the work done - so that does offset some of that (if I blindly ignore inflation, but this is man maths). My car may be a harder sell as I have done the work myself - but as the car gets older that matters less and somebody out there will realise the value that an obsessive, skilled owner adds over somebody that has the minimum done at an indy.
Most of the "stuff" I have done is ageing or worn out parts rather than upgrades. I would fully expect any 996.1 over 100k that hasn't had suspension arms, brake lines, power steering rack pipes, air con rads, water rads, water pump etc etc to need those in the next few years. So budget accordingly - but it depends on your tolerance - my brake lines were MOT OK, and in the end I wanted all refreshed suspension / rubber mounts. I want it to drive like a 911 should.
The only bit really untouched on my car is the engine, according to oil analysis and the cam deviation figures there is nothing untoward going on.
About 1500 miles so far. Spent £289
996 is 20 years old this month, it passed another MOT with no advisories yesterday.
Had a stuck idle control valve, car was stalling during low speed manoeuvres - luckily I dismantled it and cleaned it up at zero cost.
Now its developed a squeeky dash, and the exhaust heat shields have gone rattly behind the rear bumper
Having a cheap year so far, lets not spoil it. Loving the car, using it 2 days a week now all weathers for 40 mile round trip commute.
£6731.92 in just over 5 years and 27k miles of ownership. I could easily double that if I was paying someone to fix it.
If I were to sell I think it would be a £12k or 13k advert, given a slight increase in value and all the work done - so that does offset some of that (if I blindly ignore inflation, but this is man maths). My car may be a harder sell as I have done the work myself - but as the car gets older that matters less and somebody out there will realise the value that an obsessive, skilled owner adds over somebody that has the minimum done at an indy.
Most of the "stuff" I have done is ageing or worn out parts rather than upgrades. I would fully expect any 996.1 over 100k that hasn't had suspension arms, brake lines, power steering rack pipes, air con rads, water rads, water pump etc etc to need those in the next few years. So budget accordingly - but it depends on your tolerance - my brake lines were MOT OK, and in the end I wanted all refreshed suspension / rubber mounts. I want it to drive like a 911 should.
The only bit really untouched on my car is the engine, according to oil analysis and the cam deviation figures there is nothing untoward going on.
Hi Wasz,
How are you reading your cam deviation figures??
I've wanted mine read at service time but my Indy is adamant you cannot read them on a UK 996.1.
Apparently the USA cars have the ability to give readings (2 sensors or something) but not UK cars.
I'll go back to my Indy with the relevant info. It'll be the first time he's been wrong about something in the 15 years I've used him.
How are you reading your cam deviation figures??
I've wanted mine read at service time but my Indy is adamant you cannot read them on a UK 996.1.
Apparently the USA cars have the ability to give readings (2 sensors or something) but not UK cars.
I'll go back to my Indy with the relevant info. It'll be the first time he's been wrong about something in the 15 years I've used him.
marky911 said:
Hi Wasz,
How are you reading your cam deviation figures??
I've wanted mine read at service time but my Indy is adamant you cannot read them on a UK 996.1.
Apparently the USA cars have the ability to give readings (2 sensors or something) but not UK cars.
I'll go back to my Indy with the relevant info. It'll be the first time he's been wrong about something in the 15 years I've used him.
I use a £12 durametric clone. You have to tell it the car is a 993 for some stuff (airbags) but it works for me.How are you reading your cam deviation figures??
I've wanted mine read at service time but my Indy is adamant you cannot read them on a UK 996.1.
Apparently the USA cars have the ability to give readings (2 sensors or something) but not UK cars.
I'll go back to my Indy with the relevant info. It'll be the first time he's been wrong about something in the 15 years I've used him.
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think I could just read one side or something on my car? It read all the over rev info too. I will double check as I haven't done it in a long while. Got to find a windows laptop first.....
hate them.Edited by was8v on Friday 9th November 10:07
Edited by was8v on Friday 9th November 10:07
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