Hotrod '85 911 - 964RS Engine and Tuthill bits.
Discussion
Gary C said:
I believe the syncro on the 915 is the weak point and that doesn't seem to be the issue here. Maybe just a new and more forgiving clutch plate.
The g50 in my 3.2 is a good box but it still needs deliberate changes and it's heavier.
Yes exactly! No issues with the actual gearbox itself, I mean - yeah, it can be a little vague every now and then - but other than that it's just fine. Just the flywheel I think, more or less. I do like the engine's response though, and now that I'm getting more used to the clutch, I think it's actually quite ok.The g50 in my 3.2 is a good box but it still needs deliberate changes and it's heavier.
stichill99 said:
I think it will be a fair bit more to buy a g50 and then have it fitted? I looked into having a 964 C4 into 2wd but the cost of a g50 made it a non starter!
Assuming that the 915 is px'd I think it'll be somewhere around there - but it was just a guess!Jhonno said:
Sounds a bit like driving a Cerbera.. The clutch/flywheel take a little getting used to, particularly from a standing start.
Exactly! But a couple of days in I'm able to drive the car from cold without any stalls - so can't complain, it's just reverse that is hard now! What The Deuces said:
Oh you've done me there.. Completely forgot about that thingSo, got the post-purchase inspection completed.
Some interesting tidbits uncovered, but nothing major or shocking!
So, stuff that's not quite right:
1) Oil pressure warning light not working
2) There were no major oil leaks on the engine however there is slight sweating on the base of cylinder no 6 (not currently a cause for concern, I am told they can be that way for years - need to start getting worried about it when it starts becoming more aggressive)
3) The clutch operation is heavy due to the fact the omega spring is missing however the operation is smooth with no judder.
4) Brake fluid appears to be due a change.
5) Rear spring plate bushes are showing signs of wear.
6) The heater control box is not working.
Finally, he said setup wise it's fine - but there's too much caster on the steering meaning turn in is heavier than it should be, but that this is subjective.
All in, otherwise, it's in good mechanical condition and in a very well sorted state re mods and whatnot. Can't complain!
Had a friend hanging out of a 992 Turbo S grab some pictures of the ol' pumpkin on the move.
The plan for the moment is to sort the brake fluid, the oil warning indicator, and the clutch omega spring. At least we know there's a reason I was struggling with the clutch (or so I like to think!).
Some interesting tidbits uncovered, but nothing major or shocking!
So, stuff that's not quite right:
1) Oil pressure warning light not working
2) There were no major oil leaks on the engine however there is slight sweating on the base of cylinder no 6 (not currently a cause for concern, I am told they can be that way for years - need to start getting worried about it when it starts becoming more aggressive)
3) The clutch operation is heavy due to the fact the omega spring is missing however the operation is smooth with no judder.
4) Brake fluid appears to be due a change.
5) Rear spring plate bushes are showing signs of wear.
6) The heater control box is not working.
Finally, he said setup wise it's fine - but there's too much caster on the steering meaning turn in is heavier than it should be, but that this is subjective.
All in, otherwise, it's in good mechanical condition and in a very well sorted state re mods and whatnot. Can't complain!
Had a friend hanging out of a 992 Turbo S grab some pictures of the ol' pumpkin on the move.
The plan for the moment is to sort the brake fluid, the oil warning indicator, and the clutch omega spring. At least we know there's a reason I was struggling with the clutch (or so I like to think!).
Took an age, but got the clutch job(s) done, along with a couple of other nagging/important issues.
From Russ:
Removed clutch cable, clutch arm and clutch operating arm.
Operating arm was seized to shaft, cleaned out arm and shaft.
Removed old bearings from shaft, fitted new bearings and pin.
Fitted new stop bracket to side of gearbox.
Lubricated and refitted operating arm complete with omega spring.
Refitted clutch arm and cable.
Adjusted clutch cable and free play.
Rectified oil pressure warning light not working
Modified wiring for air flow sensor.
Checked front wheel geometry.
//
Front wheel geometry was my preference, steering was insanely heavy - but it turns out I'm simply a pussy and the caster has already been set to minimum. So there's that..
Clutch is muuuuuch nicer now with the Omega spring in, hasn't changed much about the bite point - but the return of the clutch from being depressed is noticeably lighter, which makes the car much more comfortable to drive - especially trying to quickly balance the throttle and bite point. The lightened flywheel of course means that the car won't creep forward at the bite point, you need some amount of throttle in there to get her moving without stalling.
Took it for a nice little blast today and had a brilliant time, once you get the car moving it really is just simply mesmerising to drive. It absorbs you into the driving experience. I couldn't tell you where I was, I couldn't tell you what was on the stereo, but I could tell you which gear I was in for most corners on the route. You don't go anywhere very quickly, I could fire a 296 GTB down the road muuuuuch quicker, but honestly I couldn't give a toss - the whole thing is so involving you step out of the car after every journey and feel like you've done a job to get there. It's so nice to just be able to enjoy a local road instead of moaning about constant undulating surfaces, tight sections, so on, so forth.
Good to have a working oil pressure warning light too, hahaha!
Anyway, in classic car luck, the door has subsequently fallen off.
No, not really. But kind of.
What it should look like:
What it currently looks like:
C'est la vie. Off to be fixed tomorrow!
From Russ:
Removed clutch cable, clutch arm and clutch operating arm.
Operating arm was seized to shaft, cleaned out arm and shaft.
Removed old bearings from shaft, fitted new bearings and pin.
Fitted new stop bracket to side of gearbox.
Lubricated and refitted operating arm complete with omega spring.
Refitted clutch arm and cable.
Adjusted clutch cable and free play.
Rectified oil pressure warning light not working
Modified wiring for air flow sensor.
Checked front wheel geometry.
//
Front wheel geometry was my preference, steering was insanely heavy - but it turns out I'm simply a pussy and the caster has already been set to minimum. So there's that..
Clutch is muuuuuch nicer now with the Omega spring in, hasn't changed much about the bite point - but the return of the clutch from being depressed is noticeably lighter, which makes the car much more comfortable to drive - especially trying to quickly balance the throttle and bite point. The lightened flywheel of course means that the car won't creep forward at the bite point, you need some amount of throttle in there to get her moving without stalling.
Took it for a nice little blast today and had a brilliant time, once you get the car moving it really is just simply mesmerising to drive. It absorbs you into the driving experience. I couldn't tell you where I was, I couldn't tell you what was on the stereo, but I could tell you which gear I was in for most corners on the route. You don't go anywhere very quickly, I could fire a 296 GTB down the road muuuuuch quicker, but honestly I couldn't give a toss - the whole thing is so involving you step out of the car after every journey and feel like you've done a job to get there. It's so nice to just be able to enjoy a local road instead of moaning about constant undulating surfaces, tight sections, so on, so forth.
Good to have a working oil pressure warning light too, hahaha!
Anyway, in classic car luck, the door has subsequently fallen off.
No, not really. But kind of.
What it should look like:
What it currently looks like:
C'est la vie. Off to be fixed tomorrow!
mirsgarage said:
Took it for a nice little blast today and had a brilliant time, once you get the car moving it really is just simply mesmerising to drive. It absorbs you into the driving experience. I couldn't tell you where I was, I couldn't tell you what was on the stereo, but I could tell you which gear I was in for most corners on the route. You don't go anywhere very quickly, I could fire a 296 GTB down the road muuuuuch quicker, but honestly I couldn't give a toss - the whole thing is so involving you step out of the car after every journey and feel like you've done a job to get there. It's so nice to just be able to enjoy a local road instead of moaning about constant undulating surfaces, tight sections, so on, so forth.
I know what you mean. Mine has nowhere near the power of yours being a standard 3.2 but every trip is epic.It does take work, once you get to that point of killing understeer into a bend by transferring weight onto the fronts, then allowing the rear to just start to edge off line as you pick up throttle...
Its addictive right up until it snaps !
Gary C said:
I know what you mean. Mine has nowhere near the power of yours being a standard 3.2 but every trip is epic.
It does take work, once you get to that point of killing understeer into a bend by transferring weight onto the fronts, then allowing the rear to just start to edge off line as you pick up throttle...
Its addictive right up until it snaps !
I completely get what you mean, it's so intriguing how much more of the vehicle's dynamics I can "feel" compared to modern super-things, it's absolutely refreshing and kind of scary at the same time. It's weird, I'm much more nervous getting into the 911 than I ever have been any other super-thing. Keeps me coming back for more It does take work, once you get to that point of killing understeer into a bend by transferring weight onto the fronts, then allowing the rear to just start to edge off line as you pick up throttle...
Its addictive right up until it snaps !
Those experiences sounds vaguely familiar.
Here’s what I said about the 964 RS back in 2014 :
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that make the transmission sound more akin to a coffee grinder, but keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as a modern race seat.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you won’t feel the need to race all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out. When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise...
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care ...
Here’s what I said about the 964 RS back in 2014 :
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your franky pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that make the transmission sound more akin to a coffee grinder, but keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as a modern race seat.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you won’t feel the need to race all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out. When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise...
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care ...
Nice car. You can’t just slot a G50 gearbox in, the torsion bar is in the way-it’s a massive job to undertake.
The 915 box can be made to feel like a modern box with a redesigned modern race shifter. I always found there was nothing wrong with the box itself, it just lacked the self centring of later boxes and the shift was crap with so little adjustment.
It’s horses for courses, some like the old 915 shift as it represents a unique part of how a classic 911 drives. I was always a little disappointed that our old fork lift had a more precise shift than our sports car.
The heavy turn in will likely be exasperated by your front wheel width, but the wider Fuchs do look much cooler!
Again, there are solutions in set up but I personally found that to get it light enough to how I liked it made it so skittish I struggled to keep the back end in check.
Having looked at a few different solutions I actually felt what I personally needed was an after market power steering fitting. Back then there was a couple of people doing Vauxhall Corsa swapped epas, with a variable assistance programmed in so you could dial in how much assistance you wanted.
In the end what with the gearbox and the steering what I realised I wanted was actually just not an old 911!
The 915 box can be made to feel like a modern box with a redesigned modern race shifter. I always found there was nothing wrong with the box itself, it just lacked the self centring of later boxes and the shift was crap with so little adjustment.
It’s horses for courses, some like the old 915 shift as it represents a unique part of how a classic 911 drives. I was always a little disappointed that our old fork lift had a more precise shift than our sports car.
The heavy turn in will likely be exasperated by your front wheel width, but the wider Fuchs do look much cooler!
Again, there are solutions in set up but I personally found that to get it light enough to how I liked it made it so skittish I struggled to keep the back end in check.
Having looked at a few different solutions I actually felt what I personally needed was an after market power steering fitting. Back then there was a couple of people doing Vauxhall Corsa swapped epas, with a variable assistance programmed in so you could dial in how much assistance you wanted.
In the end what with the gearbox and the steering what I realised I wanted was actually just not an old 911!
Gary C said:
Pflanzgarten said:
Nice car. You can’t just slot a G50 gearbox in, the torsion bar is in the way-it’s a massive job to undertake.
The long G50 would have a problem, but I believe the short G50 can fit without having to go to 964 coils ?Gary C said:
Pflanzgarten said:
Nice car. You can’t just slot a G50 gearbox in, the torsion bar is in the way-it’s a massive job to undertake.
The long G50 would have a problem, but I believe the short G50 can fit without having to go to 964 coils ?Pflanzgarten said:
Nice car. You can’t just slot a G50 gearbox in, the torsion bar is in the way-it’s a massive job to undertake.
The 915 box can be made to feel like a modern box with a redesigned modern race shifter. I always found there was nothing wrong with the box itself, it just lacked the self centring of later boxes and the shift was crap with so little adjustment.
It’s horses for courses, some like the old 915 shift as it represents a unique part of how a classic 911 drives. I was always a little disappointed that our old fork lift had a more precise shift than our sports car.
The heavy turn in will likely be exasperated by your front wheel width, but the wider Fuchs do look much cooler!
Again, there are solutions in set up but I personally found that to get it light enough to how I liked it made it so skittish I struggled to keep the back end in check.
Having looked at a few different solutions I actually felt what I personally needed was an after market power steering fitting. Back then there was a couple of people doing Vauxhall Corsa swapped epas, with a variable assistance programmed in so you could dial in how much assistance you wanted.
In the end what with the gearbox and the steering what I realised I wanted was actually just not an old 911!
I'm getting used to the steering, so not too much to complain about there, it's just not a city car - nor should it be used as such, so that's OK.The 915 box can be made to feel like a modern box with a redesigned modern race shifter. I always found there was nothing wrong with the box itself, it just lacked the self centring of later boxes and the shift was crap with so little adjustment.
It’s horses for courses, some like the old 915 shift as it represents a unique part of how a classic 911 drives. I was always a little disappointed that our old fork lift had a more precise shift than our sports car.
The heavy turn in will likely be exasperated by your front wheel width, but the wider Fuchs do look much cooler!
Again, there are solutions in set up but I personally found that to get it light enough to how I liked it made it so skittish I struggled to keep the back end in check.
Having looked at a few different solutions I actually felt what I personally needed was an after market power steering fitting. Back then there was a couple of people doing Vauxhall Corsa swapped epas, with a variable assistance programmed in so you could dial in how much assistance you wanted.
In the end what with the gearbox and the steering what I realised I wanted was actually just not an old 911!
The 915 on the other hand, I don't quite have a problem with the actual "feel" of the gearbox, it's the vagueness of the center that does it for me. 5th down to 4th can quite easily result in 5th down to 2nd because there's just no spring or feel for where you've slotted it in. Maybe I'm just s
t. But tightening that up would be the last thing on my wish list, to have a more concrete pattern to work with. 5th and Reverse have a nice strong spring to them, so that's ok. But 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th are all just dead reckoning.Slippydiff said:
Those experiences sounds vaguely familiar.
Here’s what I said about the 964 RS back in 2014 :
Nail. Head!Here’s what I said about the 964 RS back in 2014 :
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