Ferrari F430 Spider

[Podie]

carphotographer said:

Podie said:

That's a pretty significant change in us sprung mass.

I felt a huge difference in losing 3kg per corner on a Focus ST!

In what way ?

I've actually added 2.5 kg per corner on a very light ( 600kg ) Caterham. I've gone from 13" to 15" wheels. That maybe the reason why I was so slow yesterday compared to the other 7's in my class yesterday at an Autosolo

The car feels more nimble. The steering is lighter (it's an EPAS system, but even on "Sport" with the least assistance the wheel requires less effort to turn), the low speed ride is far less crashy and bumps are absorbed far better, and that translates into getting the power down more quickly (300bhp in a FWD hatch can sometimes be a challenge in less than ideal surfaces).

For reference the OEM wheels were 8x18 and the replacement OZs are the same size.

In theory, lighter wheels should also improve acceleration and braking - but someone more clever than me can explain that one!

[mwstewart]

carphotographer said:

In what way ?

I've actually added 2.5 kg per corner on a very light ( 600kg ) Caterham. I've gone from 13" to 15" wheels. That maybe the reason why I was so slow yesterday compared to the other 7's in my class yesterday at an Autosolo

http://www.tuneruniversity.com/blog/2011/04/part-i... is a good overview.

10Kg of added unsprung weight on a 600kg car is significant. Sometimes you have to take the weight penalty if you need better braking, but there are decent brakes available for 13" wheels/600kg, so it doesn't sound like you need to take the hit.

duffy78 said:

I'd love to see a pic of the car with the side skirts in place. In my minds eye i've got a picture of it looking slightly berlinetta boxer'ish

This has black calipers not yellow, and doesn't have the optional wheels, carbon door handles, and fuel cap, but it gives the idea:

[geraintthomas]

Red and black carbon really does make a gorgeous combination. You must be very happy

[Rangeroverover]

I love all you have done to this, I just feel the car in the picture should have the "intake curve" at the bottom of the door greyed in to match the carbon bits

[mwstewart]

geraintthomas said:

Red and black carbon really does make a gorgeous combination. You must be very happy

Rangeroverover said:

I love all you have done to this, I just feel the car in the picture should have the "intake curve" at the bottom of the door greyed in to match the carbon bits

Thanks both. The very last Scuderias had a part paint/part exposed finish on the carbon skirts:



I knew the sharp lines would not be to everyones taste, but on the spider I like it (the coupe has a few more curves).

[richtea78]

That looks great now, makes the car look much sleeker

[neilbauer]

Wasn't sure about the carbon bits, but have to admit it does look great. Will look forward to a pic of yours when it's finished

[Chr1sch]

Stunning as ever!

LOVE the carbon skirts - you also have a Scud bumper for the front too iirc?

Are you tempted to go to Scud/16M wheels too? (i.e. the ones in the example pic?)

[mwstewart]

Thanks chaps.

The wheels in the example pic are standard Scuderia. I've gone for the five spoke wheels which were an optional extra for the 16M; they are stronger and lighter than the regular Scud wheels.

[AyBee]

mwstewart said:

That join between paint and carbon where it is on the sill would bug the hell out of me - is there something that goes over the top?

neilbauer said:

Wasn't sure about the carbon bits, but have to admit it does look great. Will look forward to a pic of yours when it's finished

Neither was I, but that pic of the finished car looks superb!

[mwstewart]

AyBee said:

mwstewart said:

That join between paint and carbon where it is on the sill would bug the hell out of me - is there something that goes over the top?

The sill trim has a rebate at the join end and the B post trim fits really nicely against it to create a smooth seam, or as smooth as possible. It's actually done quite well. I like it. The photo probably doesn't show that.

[True Gaucho]

Mark. Thanks in no small part to your fantastic thread, I have started to think seriously about purchasing an F430 (coupe) in the next 2 years. Saving for our (big, expensive) wedding next year is what's holding me back from going for it right now!

Can you share any insight on the used market for these cars? What direction do you see the prices going in?

Cheers, Toby

[leglessAlex]

True Gaucho said:

Mark. Thanks in no small part to your fantastic thread, I have started to think seriously about purchasing an F430 (coupe) in the next 2 years. Saving for our (big, expensive) wedding next year is what's holding me back from going for it right now!

Can you share any insight on the used market for these cars? What direction do you see the prices going in?

Cheers, Toby

There's an excellent thread in the Supercar General sub forum by voicey that tracks the values of F430s. Here's a link, but I think the answer to "what what direction are they going in?" is up, up and up...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[mwstewart]

leglessAlex said:

True Gaucho said:

Mark. Thanks in no small part to your fantastic thread, I have started to think seriously about purchasing an F430 (coupe) in the next 2 years. Saving for our (big, expensive) wedding next year is what's holding me back from going for it right now!

Can you share any insight on the used market for these cars? What direction do you see the prices going in?

Cheers, Toby

There's an excellent thread in the Supercar General sub forum by voicey that tracks the values of F430s. Here's a link, but I think the answer to "what what direction are they going in?" is up, up and up...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point down the line there is a bit of a correction. Not a crash, just a rationalisation of the car market as a whole.

[em177]

mwstewart said:

leglessAlex said:

True Gaucho said:

Mark. Thanks in no small part to your fantastic thread, I have started to think seriously about purchasing an F430 (coupe) in the next 2 years. Saving for our (big, expensive) wedding next year is what's holding me back from going for it right now!

Can you share any insight on the used market for these cars? What direction do you see the prices going in?

Cheers, Toby

There's an excellent thread in the Supercar General sub forum by voicey that tracks the values of F430s. Here's a link, but I think the answer to "what what direction are they going in?" is up, up and up...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point down the line there is a bit of a correction. Not a crash, just a rationalisation of the car market as a whole.

I would think so, ask any classic car specialist about 911 prices if you want an idea!

[Warmfuzzies]

em177 said:

mwstewart said:

leglessAlex said:

True Gaucho said:

Mark. Thanks in no small part to your fantastic thread, I have started to think seriously about purchasing an F430 (coupe) in the next 2 years. Saving for our (big, expensive) wedding next year is what's holding me back from going for it right now!

Can you share any insight on the used market for these cars? What direction do you see the prices going in?

Cheers, Toby

There's an excellent thread in the Supercar General sub forum by voicey that tracks the values of F430s. Here's a link, but I think the answer to "what what direction are they going in?" is up, up and up...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point down the line there is a bit of a correction. Not a crash, just a rationalisation of the car market as a whole.

I would think so, ask any classic car specialist about 911 prices if you want an idea!

You could, and if you've owned one like I have for 15 years, they go up, and down. e.g the 964 just a handful of years ago was down to 10-15k, from around 20.
It's a bloody odd game....

[mwstewart]

Parts order
16 F1 constructors championships rear badge from a 16M. Nice gold plate details but ironically the whole thing is really heavy!


16M engine grilles.


Ferrari script emblems (lightweight aluminium version) for the sill trims.


Stainless bolts to replace the front & rear wheel arch securing screws.


Side grilles for the 16M front bumper.


16M/Scuderia front ARB bushes.


16M (black) front bumper grille – RH.


Exhaust heat shield for the rear bumper. The other side is on back order.


Superfast 2 F1 conversion research
I've been undertaking a bit of research over the past week and as usual with Ferrari cars found the amount of information out in the public domain is - to say the least - restricted. The official technical manuals and wiring diagrams are only available to registered garages with a VAT number, and application to use said (paid for) online portal are vetted by Ferrari in Italy (tried that and failed )

I finally managed to find some wiring diagrams for the F430 Spider and 16M - from an unofficial source in a faraway country. Diagrams were absolutely crucial to enable me to determine how I would either a) integrate or b) install the Scuderia F1 system and TCU (Transmission Control Unit / ECU) into my car.
The first thing I noticed was just how similar the wiring systems are for each car; the F430 loom is modular and the junction connectors for F430 and Scuderia are identical. The second thing I noticed after examining the ECU and TCU (pinouts was that there were two crucial differences between the 16M and F430 Spider:

1) 16M TCU connector B (smaller of the two) pin 28 ‘fast gearshift’
2) Right bank ECU connector F (larger of the two) pin 54 ‘fast gearshift’

The two pins above were wired together (the TCU connection is to the right bank ECU only) and having looked up the loom components the 16M & Scuderia models use a different F1 loom (part number 228154). Given CAN is employed on the driveline and engine management components I find it quite strange that this additional wire is required, but nevertheless it is a crucial difference.

For reference, the ID for the TCU and ECU is as follows:
E042 - Electronically-controlled gearbox node (NCR)
E006 - Engine control node (NCM) - right-hand side

I’ve been told that the wiring of the solenoids on the 16M/Scuderia models is also different but I can now confirm that isn’t the case: the only difference I have found is the addition of the pin 28 wire through to connector YA44, which is the junction point to the ECU/engine management loom for the right hand bank. The Scuderia valves may be different (poppet type) but their layout and even Ferrari component ID is identical to the F430.

I was now resigned to converting my car to run on the 16M/Scuderia management and had tracked down the engine loom components after confirming their junction connectors (to my body loom) were compatible, and I found and opened dialogue with a Ferrari Motronic expert who could overwrite my stock ECU bin files with those of a Scuderia, thus converting my ECUs to Scuderia spec without alternating my original immobiliser data stored in the flash and EEPROM areas. This would have been quite an undertaking so to mitigate the need to do it, I started to research TCUs.

TCU research led me to understand that there have been a few revisions of the F1 system over the years of the 360 and F430:

So Fast i - 360. The system is based on a CFC231 TCU. The TCU code suffix denotes revision and early cars are CFC231F.01. I cannot find any concrete data for change time but speculation is 250ms.
So Fast ii - 360 Challenge Stradale (CFC231F.06), and 2005,2006, and 2007 manufactured F430s are So Fast iii equipped. It is based on a CFC231 TCU and there have been at least two software upgrades to improve smoothness and clutch life. This system is capable of changing gears at 160ms.
So Fast iii - 2008 manufactured F430s were equipped with the So Fast iv system, which is based on a CFC301 TCU with more powerful primary & secondary processors and a clutch hydraulic pressure sensor to further help shifting accuracy. The engine ECUs are also modified to suit. So Fast iii is capable of 120ms shifts.
So Fast iv - 16M/Scuderia. 60ms shifts. Having studied the 16M ‘SuperFast 2’ system I learned that it was a CFC301 based system, and gearbox and actuator changes aside – which I already understand - the ‘SuperFast 2’ element is purely a software change within the CFC301 architecture and in fact the TCU did not get a software version suffix. A CFC301 TCU loaded with SuperFast 2 software is termed So Fast iv.

With respect to dealer applied software updates the hardware changes of the CFC301 would prevent the earlier systems being upgraded to the same software, so the upgrade route for So Fast ii and ii is likely to be different.
Credit for the information on MY2008 goes to a Ferrarichat user:

Bugsbunny said:

MY08 cars have CCM brakes as standard, different and more durable exhaust manifolds, better engine management software and newer F1 system...
The main differences on F1 system are, MY05-06 and 07 cars have F1 TCU based on CFC231 so called "So Fast 2" which can change gears min 160ms, on the other hand MY08 cars' F1 systems based on CFC301 TCU so called "So Fast 3" which has completely different electronic management and electronic hardware, better clutch management with aid of "clutch pressure sensor" and better F1 pump management for longer pump life. SF3 systems can perform gear change procedure in 120ms.

I traced the pressure sensor using an online parts system and comparing F430 with Scuderia. The part number is 205743 and it is screwed into the clutch hydraulic fluid distribution block mounted to the right side of the gearbox.


The wiring diagrams I had were for the 05,06, and 07 based F430s as are all of the parts diagrams I find online i.e. they don't cover the wiring and hardware differences for the CFC301 system. I theorise that either the factory documentation is a bit patchy on the MY08 F430s or most people just opt to stock documentation which covers the majority of production years, either way I needed to examine my car to make sure exactly what it was equipped with - ideally the CFC301 system and accompanying wiring changes that would make it directly compatible with a 16M/Scuderia TCU. There was only one way to find out!

The TCU and right bank ECU are behind the right hand side (UK drivers) seat. Four countersunk Allen screws secure the trim piece which on this car is made from a lighter recycled plastic rather than moulded fibreboard on my last car.



The TCU and ECU are mounted together. A closer look revealed exactly what I hoped to find on an MY08 car (some 08 cars are late registered 07’s);



Now I’d confirmed I had the 16M/Scuderia TCU architecture I wanted to check out if the wiring was the same in the F430 implementation. If it was, it would preclude me from swapping my F1 loom to the 16M/Scuderia version, and more significantly, the ECUs and engine management looms - two solid days of work.
The next check yielded a great result – pin28 of TCU connector B was occupied.


Pin 54 of ECU connector F was populated with the same blue/red wire. I wanted to make sure these were linked so I ran a continuity check: bingo! They were. I found paperclips are a perfect fit to non-disruptive testing of small factor DIN plugs.


Another sanity check was for the clutch pressure sensor screwed into the rear of the clutch fluid distribution block. The sensor was there underneath a heat shield:


These findings massively simplify the SuperFast 2 upgrade and have validated my decision to choose an MY08 car in order to make the upgrade process easier. To convert my So Fast iii to So Fast iv/SuperFast 2 will involve swapping the gearbox & F1 hardware components and flashing of my TCU with 16M software that maintains my existing driving history data. These actions are relatively straightforward whereas wiring and engine management changes would have added significant – but not insurmountable - complexity.

[richtea78]

I think your idea of massively simplify is a little different from mine!

[True Gaucho]

Absolutely fascinating stuff! It's comforting to know that Porsche are not the only manufacturer where tracking down details of top end upgrade parts can be very difficult. I find it makes it even more worth it in the end though :-)

You must surely be the only person in the world to have attempted this - bravo to you.

[AyBee]

When you read the writing on the ECU/TCU, did you do a little "YESSSS" to youself? I would have done