Ferrari F430 Spider
Discussion
16M engine lid grilles
Here are my standard grilles. On red cars these grilles, the headlamp casing, and the rear diffuser are painted in the metallic grey used elsewhere in the interior and engine bay.
Obligatory weight comparison shot of the standard and 16M mesh grilles.
The mesh grilles reveal more of the engine lid frame so I took the opportunity to mask it off and give it a fresh paint of satin black.
That’s as far as I got because I didn’t realise the replacement grilles use M5 not M6 bolts, and I had run out of those in stainless.
Parts update
I’ve bought some more Scuderia parts from the Glickenhaus car.
Scuderia ABS Module.
Scuderia instrument cluster. This is from a US car hence the imperial measurement units for oil and water, however I've found a supplier in Germany who will provide the foils for those gauges with metric measurement units; the oil & water gagues are a seperate foil to the speedo and tach.
The actual electronics of the cluster are the same worldwide and the interntal configuration is set by softeware. I found the following post by Taz which provides details of a company who can port my mileage and other configuration details to the Scuderia cluster.
Scuderia luggage compartment trim. This time the ‘full’ version. I am going to have it retrimmed in black Alcantara with red stitching.
F430 Challenge and 16M/Scuderia use different upper radiator hoses and aluminium link pipe.
Heat shields for carbon fibre engine bay panels - which I have yet to obtain.
Superfast 2 F1 conversion research - Part 2
Fchat user Eric (eric355) has provided me with some interesting information on the wire between pin 28 of the TCU and 54 of the right bank Motronic:
Eric is a guru on the CFC201 and CFC231 generation TCUs and as he went from a 360 to 458 did not have a reason to investigate the CFC301 at an electronics level, however he has told me that the CFC301 does not store km travelled per gear like the 201 & 231 do. That leaves the number of gear changes for each gear in my TCU, but without a period of research it would be difficult to say how long/if that data could be ported to another CFC301 TCU, so I’m going to take a different approach and buy a brand new 16M TCU from Ferrari which obviously has all counters reset to zero.
Given TCU swaps are fairly understood and commonplace for 360 owners moving to the 360CS software there has been a bit of thought around data preservation. Helpful Club Scuderia member Mike has elaborated on a nice process that I am going to adopt for my car:
There are three unknowns remaining at this point:
1)Does the ECU torque limiting calibration for F1 shifting actually exist in the MY09 ECU? i.e. are the wiring similarites with Scuderia just because Ferrari wanted to standardise and save cost?
2)Does the ECU torque limiting calibration for F1 shifting is different between MY08 F430 and Scuderia?
3)Is the driving mode selection ID is different between MY08 F430 and Scuderia?
I’m feeling quite comfortable about the Superfast 2 upgrade so I’ve moved on to looking at the other driveline electronic systems and calibration which are unique to the 16M/Scuderia. These are:
- ABS Module and E-Diff Module - together constitute ‘F1-Trac’;
- Engine ECUs;
- Instrument cluster;
- Suspension module;
- TCU (already covered).
Drive mode selection
From what I can ascertain the drive mode selection in the F430 and 16M/Scuderia models is initiated by a CAN broadcast from the steering wheel node; essentially when the Manettino is moved between positions an ID is broadcast on the CAN network and read by the relevant modules as a trigger to use a particular piece of calibration (commonly referred to as a ‘map’) specific to the selected mode e.g. in low grip mode the ABS/ESP module uses a map which permits a lesser degree of slip.
The question at the moment for me is whether the actual CAN word (data) is different for the MY08 F430 and 16M/Scuderia or is it simply a common ID and each connected device does something different with it. I’m away from the car at the moment so don’t have chance to start analysing the CAN data, so I’ve looked elsewhere.
I’ve found a data logging device manufactured by AIM technologies which suits both F430 and Scuderia, and its documentation refers to a 'Ferrari F430 ECU Bosch protocol' as common to both cars. The logger has a monitoring channel for 'F430_CST ' (traction control selection) so I've emailed the AIM technical team in the hope they will be kind enough to divulge whether the traction control selection CAN word/ID is the same for F430 and Scuderia. http://www.aimtechnologies.co.uk/downloads/ecu-con...
The best case scenario is that the driving mode CAN word is the same between MY08 F430 and Scuderia and only the display icon presented by the instrument cluster differs, and of course the actuation software in the various actuation modules. This is perhaps wishful thinking, but I am going to test it by installing a Scuderia steering wheel as the starting point – a successful test will be if it changes my F430 driving modes as normal despite the Manettino icons being different, and a fail will be if it does nothing at all i.e. the CAN word it broadcasts is unknown by the F430 modules.
A successful test of the steering wheel will make things easier to implement because it means I can take an incremental approach to module replacement. A fail of the steering wheel test will mean I need to undertake a ‘big bang’ approach and replace all modules in one go; an approach that potentially makes diagnosis difficult.
ABS module
The F430/16M/Scuderia grip enhancing and safety system uses the ABS, E-Diff, and ECU. The ABS module obviously contains the software element used to control the brakes.
As well as the software, I know that the 16M/Scuderia ABS physically differs to the 05-07 F430. Here’s the F430:
Here is a Scuderia Module:
Note the different electrical connector and external pressure sensor on the F430 module. The ABS module is connected to a sub loom that also links the ABS sensors and brake pad wear sensors back to the module and into the car loom. I’ve checked wiring diagrams and the junction point for the 05-07 F430 is identical meaning that from a wiring perspective it is quite an easy change. The other change is to the short brake pipes to the module itself, though these are cheap at ~£16 each and easy to change as Ferrari made the pipe sections modular.
I’ve gone ahead and ordered the 16M/Scuderia loom as it was surprisingly cheap, however this may have been a little premature as I research more and find out how many changes were made to the MY08 FC430; it may be the case that my car has the later (1M/Scuderia) type ABS module, so my next task is to have a look and see.
For the E-Diff module there are not any wiring differences I can discern.
Engine ECUs
Currently out of scope. I can reach similar power levels and maintain my ECUs, however should I be forced to use Scuderia management I have identified the parts I need to do so. There are a few changes on the MY08 that will make this easier
16M/Scuderia/458 coils. These are a push in type and four pins thus supporting the ION knock detection system.
05-07 bolt in type:
Push in type:
Challenge/Scuderia type long nozzle injectors and inlet manifold runners. The injectors are a different flow rate.
F430
16M/Scuderia/Challenge:
Also, Challenge/Scuderia valves.
Instrument cluster
The 2008 F430s changed to a DIGITEK instrument cluster which is also used by the Scuderia cars. I know that the software proxy file installed in these later F430 clusters will run the LEDs on the Scuderia steering wheel without further modification. The cluster displays the selected driving mode as an icon on screen so I need to change it to represent the different driving modes of the Scuderia.
Suspension module
I’ve checked the wiring diagrams and can confirm there are no wiring changes between any F430 and the Scuderia. The ‘bumpy road’ button is not wired to the module as I would expect but rather it earths pin 6 of connector C on the instrument cluster. The instrument cluster on all F430/16M/Scuderia is linked to the suspension module connector C pin 17 and I believe this to be a K line, therefore the Scuderia instrument cluster must handle the ‘bumpy road’ request via the K line.
TCU
See Superfast 2 conversion research section.
Here are my standard grilles. On red cars these grilles, the headlamp casing, and the rear diffuser are painted in the metallic grey used elsewhere in the interior and engine bay.
Obligatory weight comparison shot of the standard and 16M mesh grilles.
The mesh grilles reveal more of the engine lid frame so I took the opportunity to mask it off and give it a fresh paint of satin black.
That’s as far as I got because I didn’t realise the replacement grilles use M5 not M6 bolts, and I had run out of those in stainless.
Parts update
I’ve bought some more Scuderia parts from the Glickenhaus car.
Scuderia ABS Module.
Scuderia instrument cluster. This is from a US car hence the imperial measurement units for oil and water, however I've found a supplier in Germany who will provide the foils for those gauges with metric measurement units; the oil & water gagues are a seperate foil to the speedo and tach.
The actual electronics of the cluster are the same worldwide and the interntal configuration is set by softeware. I found the following post by Taz which provides details of a company who can port my mileage and other configuration details to the Scuderia cluster.
tazandjan said:
...Contact FAI and ask them. They are the experts on the digital instrument panels. There are no regular parts you can buy for the instrument panel through Ferrari.
Franchorchamps of America, Inc.
935 Sunset Dr Suite A
Costa Mesa, CA 92627
(949) 631-6373
Rod Drew
[email]t28flyer@yahoo.com[/email]
Will White
Francorchamps of America, Inc.
Franchorchamps of America, Inc.
935 Sunset Dr Suite A
Costa Mesa, CA 92627
(949) 631-6373
Rod Drew
[email]t28flyer@yahoo.com[/email]
Will White
Francorchamps of America, Inc.
Scuderia luggage compartment trim. This time the ‘full’ version. I am going to have it retrimmed in black Alcantara with red stitching.
F430 Challenge and 16M/Scuderia use different upper radiator hoses and aluminium link pipe.
Heat shields for carbon fibre engine bay panels - which I have yet to obtain.
Superfast 2 F1 conversion research - Part 2
Fchat user Eric (eric355) has provided me with some interesting information on the wire between pin 28 of the TCU and 54 of the right bank Motronic:
eric355 said:
When the TCU uses the F1-Superfast mode, the torque reduction command to the Motronic is no more sent through the high speed CAN bus (which is not fast enough to have an accurate synchronisation) but by dedicated wires between TCU and Motronic. I don’t know if these wires are part of the 430 Motronic harness. Do the 430 and Scud harnesses have the same part number?
I have already confirmed that my MY08 F430 is equipped with the CFC301 and dedicated ‘fast gearshift’ wire, so I’m good to go from a wiring loom perspective.Eric is a guru on the CFC201 and CFC231 generation TCUs and as he went from a 360 to 458 did not have a reason to investigate the CFC301 at an electronics level, however he has told me that the CFC301 does not store km travelled per gear like the 201 & 231 do. That leaves the number of gear changes for each gear in my TCU, but without a period of research it would be difficult to say how long/if that data could be ported to another CFC301 TCU, so I’m going to take a different approach and buy a brand new 16M TCU from Ferrari which obviously has all counters reset to zero.
Given TCU swaps are fairly understood and commonplace for 360 owners moving to the 360CS software there has been a bit of thought around data preservation. Helpful Club Scuderia member Mike has elaborated on a nice process that I am going to adopt for my car:
Mike01606 said:
I went for new as it is a clean unit rather than a reflash which contains all the donor car data.
I'm asking my tech to print out the data from my existing TCU so I have it as a record.
I will keep the original TCU with the history file.
The new TCU will effectively be an incremental record of data from this week.
I've written a history log report to record the km/gear, clutch wear and TCU serial numbers. I will attach an old/new SD printout and get the tech to sign.
Incidentally the new TCU costs quite a bit less than the asking price of many used units; I know most new Ferrari parts are over-priced, but I’m find many used parts are even more so.I'm asking my tech to print out the data from my existing TCU so I have it as a record.
I will keep the original TCU with the history file.
The new TCU will effectively be an incremental record of data from this week.
I've written a history log report to record the km/gear, clutch wear and TCU serial numbers. I will attach an old/new SD printout and get the tech to sign.
There are three unknowns remaining at this point:
1)Does the ECU torque limiting calibration for F1 shifting actually exist in the MY09 ECU? i.e. are the wiring similarites with Scuderia just because Ferrari wanted to standardise and save cost?
2)Does the ECU torque limiting calibration for F1 shifting is different between MY08 F430 and Scuderia?
3)Is the driving mode selection ID is different between MY08 F430 and Scuderia?
- 1 and #2 are going to be a case of drive it and see. If any changes are required I will work with http://www.zeusflash.com/ to tune as necessary.
- 3 is covered in the next section.
I’m feeling quite comfortable about the Superfast 2 upgrade so I’ve moved on to looking at the other driveline electronic systems and calibration which are unique to the 16M/Scuderia. These are:
- ABS Module and E-Diff Module - together constitute ‘F1-Trac’;
- Engine ECUs;
- Instrument cluster;
- Suspension module;
- TCU (already covered).
Drive mode selection
From what I can ascertain the drive mode selection in the F430 and 16M/Scuderia models is initiated by a CAN broadcast from the steering wheel node; essentially when the Manettino is moved between positions an ID is broadcast on the CAN network and read by the relevant modules as a trigger to use a particular piece of calibration (commonly referred to as a ‘map’) specific to the selected mode e.g. in low grip mode the ABS/ESP module uses a map which permits a lesser degree of slip.
The question at the moment for me is whether the actual CAN word (data) is different for the MY08 F430 and 16M/Scuderia or is it simply a common ID and each connected device does something different with it. I’m away from the car at the moment so don’t have chance to start analysing the CAN data, so I’ve looked elsewhere.
I’ve found a data logging device manufactured by AIM technologies which suits both F430 and Scuderia, and its documentation refers to a 'Ferrari F430 ECU Bosch protocol' as common to both cars. The logger has a monitoring channel for 'F430_CST ' (traction control selection) so I've emailed the AIM technical team in the hope they will be kind enough to divulge whether the traction control selection CAN word/ID is the same for F430 and Scuderia. http://www.aimtechnologies.co.uk/downloads/ecu-con...
The best case scenario is that the driving mode CAN word is the same between MY08 F430 and Scuderia and only the display icon presented by the instrument cluster differs, and of course the actuation software in the various actuation modules. This is perhaps wishful thinking, but I am going to test it by installing a Scuderia steering wheel as the starting point – a successful test will be if it changes my F430 driving modes as normal despite the Manettino icons being different, and a fail will be if it does nothing at all i.e. the CAN word it broadcasts is unknown by the F430 modules.
A successful test of the steering wheel will make things easier to implement because it means I can take an incremental approach to module replacement. A fail of the steering wheel test will mean I need to undertake a ‘big bang’ approach and replace all modules in one go; an approach that potentially makes diagnosis difficult.
ABS module
The F430/16M/Scuderia grip enhancing and safety system uses the ABS, E-Diff, and ECU. The ABS module obviously contains the software element used to control the brakes.
As well as the software, I know that the 16M/Scuderia ABS physically differs to the 05-07 F430. Here’s the F430:
Here is a Scuderia Module:
Note the different electrical connector and external pressure sensor on the F430 module. The ABS module is connected to a sub loom that also links the ABS sensors and brake pad wear sensors back to the module and into the car loom. I’ve checked wiring diagrams and the junction point for the 05-07 F430 is identical meaning that from a wiring perspective it is quite an easy change. The other change is to the short brake pipes to the module itself, though these are cheap at ~£16 each and easy to change as Ferrari made the pipe sections modular.
I’ve gone ahead and ordered the 16M/Scuderia loom as it was surprisingly cheap, however this may have been a little premature as I research more and find out how many changes were made to the MY08 FC430; it may be the case that my car has the later (1M/Scuderia) type ABS module, so my next task is to have a look and see.
For the E-Diff module there are not any wiring differences I can discern.
Engine ECUs
Currently out of scope. I can reach similar power levels and maintain my ECUs, however should I be forced to use Scuderia management I have identified the parts I need to do so. There are a few changes on the MY08 that will make this easier
16M/Scuderia/458 coils. These are a push in type and four pins thus supporting the ION knock detection system.
05-07 bolt in type:
Push in type:
Challenge/Scuderia type long nozzle injectors and inlet manifold runners. The injectors are a different flow rate.
F430
16M/Scuderia/Challenge:
Also, Challenge/Scuderia valves.
Instrument cluster
The 2008 F430s changed to a DIGITEK instrument cluster which is also used by the Scuderia cars. I know that the software proxy file installed in these later F430 clusters will run the LEDs on the Scuderia steering wheel without further modification. The cluster displays the selected driving mode as an icon on screen so I need to change it to represent the different driving modes of the Scuderia.
Suspension module
I’ve checked the wiring diagrams and can confirm there are no wiring changes between any F430 and the Scuderia. The ‘bumpy road’ button is not wired to the module as I would expect but rather it earths pin 6 of connector C on the instrument cluster. The instrument cluster on all F430/16M/Scuderia is linked to the suspension module connector C pin 17 and I believe this to be a K line, therefore the Scuderia instrument cluster must handle the ‘bumpy road’ request via the K line.
TCU
See Superfast 2 conversion research section.
dom9 said:
And there was me, worrying bout getting my S1 Rallye inlet manifold working on my XSi!
Unbelievable work, as always!
Cheers Unbelievable work, as always!
AyBee said:
Is a lot of this research being done by you asking the right questions in the right places or has the research already been done and it's just a case of looking in the right place?
To my knowledge no one has attempted what I am doing. There are already known methods for undertaking certain things, for example replacement of a cluster, but the rest is all new so it's a case of looking at wiring diagrams, data sheets etc. I'll quote people in my posts when it's not my research
If I wore a hat I would take it off to you.For your persistence and investigative nouce I reckon a calling to the River House down at Vauxhall Bridge might better suit your hobby needs.
Your posts leave me quite breathless - where do you find the time?!?.After sowing the broad beans,walking the cat and polishing the roof tiles I have little time left to sort my F430 and i'am retired.
Still your detective work and heroism at tackling what most would baulk at are a credit and huge help to lesser mortals who might well have the engineering skills but are lacking in the confidence department - it does me and i'am (was!) a licensed aircraft engineer and pilot.
BTW thanks for your help and info on F430 P/S reservoir caps and exhaust issues.
ATB and keep up the good work,
Alan
Your posts leave me quite breathless - where do you find the time?!?.After sowing the broad beans,walking the cat and polishing the roof tiles I have little time left to sort my F430 and i'am retired.
Still your detective work and heroism at tackling what most would baulk at are a credit and huge help to lesser mortals who might well have the engineering skills but are lacking in the confidence department - it does me and i'am (was!) a licensed aircraft engineer and pilot.
BTW thanks for your help and info on F430 P/S reservoir caps and exhaust issues.
ATB and keep up the good work,
Alan
berksboy26 said:
If I wore a hat I would take it off to you.For your persistence and investigative nouce I reckon a calling to the River House down at Vauxhall Bridge might better suit your hobby needs.
Your posts leave me quite breathless - where do you find the time?!?.After sowing the broad beans,walking the cat and polishing the roof tiles I have little time left to sort my F430 and i'am retired.
Still your detective work and heroism at tackling what most would baulk at are a credit and huge help to lesser mortals who might well have the engineering skills but are lacking in the confidence department - it does me and i'am (was!) a licensed aircraft engineer and pilot.
BTW thanks for your help and info on F430 P/S reservoir caps and exhaust issues.
ATB and keep up the good work,
Alan
Thanks Alan, that's a very nice post. I am always happy to assist if you have any questions.Your posts leave me quite breathless - where do you find the time?!?.After sowing the broad beans,walking the cat and polishing the roof tiles I have little time left to sort my F430 and i'am retired.
Still your detective work and heroism at tackling what most would baulk at are a credit and huge help to lesser mortals who might well have the engineering skills but are lacking in the confidence department - it does me and i'am (was!) a licensed aircraft engineer and pilot.
BTW thanks for your help and info on F430 P/S reservoir caps and exhaust issues.
ATB and keep up the good work,
Alan
JackP1 said:
Whilst i love this thread, surely just masking then spraying these black seems ludicrous!
Surely you covered that rear clam, not worried about overspray at all?
It's quite easy to avoid overspray by keeping the front of the cone low and away from the masking tape. Fresh overspray just polishes off anyway - it's really only a pain if it's baked on in a bodyshop, though even then T Cut or something similar will get it off.Surely you covered that rear clam, not worried about overspray at all?
Muzzer79 said:
Brilliant work, and a fascinating read.
However, I feel compelled to ask a potentially silly question......:
Why not just buy a 16M?
I'm not fully au fait with Ferrari asking prices, but after you've bought all these parts, etc are they much more?
Quite a bit more: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/f... - more again if red.However, I feel compelled to ask a potentially silly question......:
Why not just buy a 16M?
I'm not fully au fait with Ferrari asking prices, but after you've bought all these parts, etc are they much more?
I'm not at a stage in my life/career where I have that kind of money to spend on a car, but the enjoyment I get from the project is priceless to me, so if I was I'm not sure I'd do it any differently!
Very meticulous thing to do. 16M sell for £300k+ so it's a win win.
I'm interested to hear how Ferrari dealers are with you or are you avoiding them and going down the breakers, eBay and salvage route. I'd imagine Ferrari themselves given how they usually get on wouldn't be too impressed with someone adding 16M bits to a F430.
But it's your car and you can do what you want with it. Plus everything is being done to letter or as close to it as possible.
I'm interested to hear how Ferrari dealers are with you or are you avoiding them and going down the breakers, eBay and salvage route. I'd imagine Ferrari themselves given how they usually get on wouldn't be too impressed with someone adding 16M bits to a F430.
But it's your car and you can do what you want with it. Plus everything is being done to letter or as close to it as possible.
mwstewart said:
Muzzer79 said:
Brilliant work, and a fascinating read.
However, I feel compelled to ask a potentially silly question......:
Why not just buy a 16M?
I'm not fully au fait with Ferrari asking prices, but after you've bought all these parts, etc are they much more?
Quite a bit more: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/f... - more again if red.However, I feel compelled to ask a potentially silly question......:
Why not just buy a 16M?
I'm not fully au fait with Ferrari asking prices, but after you've bought all these parts, etc are they much more?
I'm not at a stage in my life/career where I have that kind of money to spend on a car, but the enjoyment I get from the project is priceless to me, so if I was I'm not sure I'd do it any differently!
keep this thread going, fascinating!
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