Jaguar F-Pace Non Runner

[Escy]

Gtom said:

I’m sure you are scanning eBay all the time but I spotted this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265656445280?mkcid=16&a...

I had messaged him previously about an exhaust cam. Just asked him about a crank/short engine. he he has no Jag bits.

Pflanzgarten said:

Don’t forget to scan eBay europe wide either.

Mate had the opportunity to buy an insurance write off (although undeclared-long story) S Class hybrid last year. Engine was scrap from hydrolocking (proper job, block had a hole in it).

Everyone told him the 2.0 engine was unique to the hybrid but he reckoned it was a standard 2.0

Found a guy selling full engines in Germany who shipped one over with all ancillaries for £4K. Needed to swap out a few bits like turbo manifolds but it fitted and fired up no problem.

In my experience, cars and parts tend to be much cheaper in the UK than the rest of Europe but I will keep a look out.

[Escy]

Batch 7.5R said:

Morning mate, finally got round to binge-reading this last night and this morning - another epic one!
I’m a big fan of the F-Pace, had one for a holiday rental last summer and really enjoyed it. It was a 2.0 180 diesel so the same engine I guess? I actually enjoyed it so much I was considering one for my next car. These Ingenium horror stories are scary though!
I was really disappointed to read the last bit as it sounded like you’d found the perfect solution. I have no doubts that you’ll locate a more suitable lump, but would you then weigh the car in or do you still fancy keeping it? Like I say, I really enjoyed the one I had and with a bit more research into which engines are decent I’d have one.

That's the same engine. I've seen reviews and they sound like they are a decent drive for the type of car they are, hopefully I can find out for myself soon. I still want to keep it. If I pay 3k for a replacement and have to exchange my engine, I'll need to move it on but if I fix mine or get a used replacement (as I can sell parts from my old engine) I will keep it.

I think the 204dta engine (240bhp twin turbo version of this) and the 3.0 diesel seem more reliable options, they'd have been my choice.

I'm also really disappointed by the last twist and turn in this saga. I was thinking it'd be up and running by next weekend, now I'm feeling a bit rudderless. I need to come up with a new plan, probably back to plan A, persist with fixing my old engine. I can't wait around for another used engine to come up at a good price, one might never come...

[Escy]

skeeterm5 said:

I assume you have already looked at Copart?

https://www.copart.co.uk/lot/72388632/clean-title-...

Buy it, use the engine, sell the rest?

It's a good idea but I don't think it's feasible in practice, I can't easily get the F-Pace out of the garage to get another car in so I'd probably need to get the engine out on the street. It's do-able but my neighbours wouldn't like it and I don't fancy it much in the winter. I've become a princess now I have a garage

I don't have a copart account. I've used them in the past but they make you pay to sign up now.

[Escy]

It's way too expensive if I want to keep the car. The other engine I lined up was £2500. There was an engine that popped up on ebay this morning, spares or repairs, asked him what was wrong, timing chain. It's the wrong block but I figured it was worth a gamble, I was hoping I'd be able to get a crank and rods out of it. I agreed a price of £400, just about to jump in the car and he's had a better offer and sold it.

[Escy]

I went back down to SWP to collect my parts. They've re-honed the cylinders, most of the scratches are gone the worst is shown in the second picture. They can't be felt, the block is good.

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They polished the exhaust cam, the mark is still there but it looks better. I'm happy to go with it

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The crank is no good but they did give me an option. The largest oversize bearing is 0.50mm, they know of a bearing from some Renault that is available 0.70mm in size. They've done it before for other people, they said it works but they aren't recommending it if I want to keep the car.

I guess it's the webuyanycar option if I'm stuck - I'm not there yet though. It does make me wonder about these 3k re-built engines, are some of them built like this?

[Escy]

Pflanzgarten said:

Is the webuyanycar option a favoured get out of jail free card these days? No thought to some poor schmuck who's going to bid on a time bomb?

webuyanycar put everything through the auctions and auctions have always been the default way people palm off trouble cars.

It's not what I'm planning to do.

[Escy]

Gtom said:

I think the oversized bearings and selling it are the best option. It’s always going to be playing on your mind about breaking down if you go any distance in the car, maybe even just using it locally.

Has the block been in a parts washer to thoroughly clean all the oil ways?

There's an OEM crank on ebay for 650 with bearings, this might be the option I'll end up going. I still want to fix it and keep it.

It's not been through a parts washer, going to sort all the cleaning out myself.

[Escy]

I removed the rockers and noticed some odd wear on the underside where they sit on the top of the valves. There's light wear on the inlet valves but the exhaust valves are quite badly worn. Two exhaust valves are fine which makes sense as I've got an invoice for two exhaust valves. So this is wear from before the latest failure. What would cause this?


IMG_20230106_131140475_HDR

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[Escy]

Megaflow said:

I’m going to assume there is the usual standard Schafer type hydraulic tappet post that goes with roller follower. In which case I’d be suspect poor lubrication, unlikely given it is only two valves, or the loss of oil pressure opened up the clearance on those two valves and the gap has caused a hammering effect

I posted the pictures on a Facebook engine building group and poor lubrication seemed to be the answer most people said. It's not only 2 valves, it's all the exhaust valves but 2 were replaced the last time the engine was apart. They are fine so I'd say this is damage from before the engine failed the first time.

It's pushing the cost of a rebuild up now, adds another £300 on.

second hand crank and bearings (650)
pistons x4 (250)
rods (definately 1 but 2 others span bearings so I'd want to do all 4) (250)
oil cooler (150)
exhaust valves x 6 (100)
rockers x16 and tappets x 16 (200)

That's £1550 in parts and for peace of mind I'd probably want to change the oil pump which is another £350. That's £1900 and I'd be using China's finest pistons and rods.

So looking like 2 grand in parts and then I need to make sure I don't balls up putting it back together. Every time I find some damage my confidence goes down.

I'm starting to ponder the buying a cheap Jaguar XF option floated my skeeterm5. Financially it's the best way, I'll sell the parts I don't need (plenty of bits go for decent money) and the engine will be cheap if not free if I buy the right car. The downside is, it's a lot of hassle and time. I need to find a car, collect it and remove the engine on my driveway in the winter. It'll take a while.

Buying a low mileage used engine is the preferable route, I would have it up and running quickly but finding one at a decent price isn't easy. I don't want this project stalling while I wait around for something that might not appear.

I think the re-build is my least favourite option currently.

[Escy]

skwdenyer said:

There are some odd choices in this engine.

What's going on with those machining marks in the cam carrier casting? Are they machined to provide clearance for the rockers? If so, that looks like a running change or a problem with rockers binding against the casting discovered in-service (or just really poor tolerancing of the casting); it is hard to believe this was the intended outcome. But it is common to all photographs online of this engine.

Is there any evidence of the rockers binding against the camshaft carrier casting?

Looking at the workshop manual, the lubrication system is mostly robust - pressurised oil feeds directly from the filter to things like the tappets, camshaft roller bearings, VCT actuator, timing chain tensioners, and so on.

The variable flow oil pump seems a potential weak point - it is located before the oil filter (as you've found out), so any debris gets pulled from the sump into the pump. At the same time, it seems (but I cannot be sure from the diagrams I've seen) to rely upon the same oil (pressurised, but unfiltered) to drive the control ring within the pump itself. So what happens if debris gets into the oil pump control system? This engine seems quite reliant upon that pump and its variable output. I can't recall if you've stripped the pump yet.

The wear patterns on the valve stems and rockers seem strange. It seems to me that this design relies upon a smooth sliding contact between rocker and valve stem tip, in order to minimise side loading. With proper lubrication, that shouldn't so much be a metal-to-metal contact, but rather the contact will ride on a thin film of oil. If the wrong oil has been put in, or the oil overly-diluted with fuel (apparently a common problem on these engines), or oil flow has been restricted (for instance by a big snake of silicone...), then wear could be the result.

As somebody else has said, the other potential problem is in the hydraulic lash adjusters - the posts. A drop in oil pressure / flow is going to cause a problem there. But also debris might be an issue. The Schaeffer patent design includes elements designed to stop a built of fine-particle debris from causing the post pistons to bind. However, the sort of "dirt" envisaged is tiny - larger debris could be an issue. I don't if those posts are rebuildable; it might be worth replacing them all instead if there's a suspicion of debris.

Returning to that odd machining, if a post doesn't pump up as intended, would that change the location of the follower tips near the valve tip, potentially causing them to contact the camshaft carrier casting?

Given the uncertain history of this motor, I can't help thinking that replacing all the valves, followers and posts might not be a bad idea.

Thanks for the reply, I was writing my last reply before I saw this posted. If I'm looking at the marks I think you mean, they are machined like this from the factory. I can't see any signs of binding between the rockers and the camshaft casting.

The feed for the solenoid on the variable oil pressure pump is the one for the crankshaft, it doesn't get unfiltered oil by design.

I agree, if I rebuild it's going to need valves, followers and posts replaced. This engine is in way worse shape than I was initially expecting.

[Escy]

skwdenyer said:

It may be entirely coincidental that IIRC this engine uses a variable timing system on the exhaust valves only. That also has a hydraulic component.

Is there a way of testing the proper functioning of the VCT actuator?

It would make sense. I can't see anything about testing it in the workshop manual, it just describes it's operation. That manual isn't very good.

[Escy]

littlebasher said:

This chap says he's open to offers.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/71404961...

Thanks for sharing. I've been looking on Facebook market place but hadn't seen that. Unfortunately it's the wrong block for my car.

dandam said:

I mentioned this thread to a friend who is an ex JLR technician, he told me that there were a lot of these engine affected by overheating, always on piston 1. To fix the coolant jacket needs cleaning in the head, and the coolant pump needs changing.

Not sure if that is of any relevance here, but thought I would mention it.

Thanks, it's not something I'm aware of so I'll pay attention to that if I do end up putting this engine back together. It was cylinder 1 which had the replacement liner.

[Escy]

A.J.M said:

Did QP online give a quote to rebuild it?
Is that out of your potential budget for the car?

They rebuilt the 3.0 v6 in a D4 on one of my fb groups 3 years ago. It’s done over 100k since no issues since.

I haven't asked but I'm not liking the cost just in parts if I rebuild it myself, let alone pay someone else to do it. Definitely not an option.

Straff99 said:

So sorry to read about all this trouble you're having although it's a relief that it doesn't just happen to me! Is the 3.0 V6 diesel a possible cheaper swap? I know b*gger all about the F-Pace but I see they offered this engine as an option and seem to have built it for a good few years.

To be be fair, it is trouble I brought upon myself, nobody made me buy it. I guess I was overly optimistic on the state of the engine. It seems like it's got something wrong in pretty much every aspect. Usually when I buy a car with an engine problem I plan for the worst case scenario, the cost of a replacement engine, I didn't do that with this, I let the heart overrule my head as I really wanted it. It's not a disaster but there is a time constraint element to it.

If you mean the 3.0 V6 that came in the F-Pace, they cost even more than the 2.0 diesel and I bet it wouldn't be a straight forward swap either.

[Escy]

I-am-the-reverend said:

That was the piston clobbering the valve - the one with the absolutely shagged journal. The valve tips then clobbered the rockers.

Edited by I-am-the-reverend on Sunday 8th January 13:23

The wear on the exhaust valve tips are on cylinder 2 and 3 also (cylinder 1 had new exhaust valves fitted). There are no marks on the heads of the valves that would indicate contact, and the piston crown on number 4 wasn't marked either. I don't think piston to valve contact explains it.

I've been looking again at the cylinder head. The valve springs don't seem to sit nice. On all cylinders, some sit closer to the casting than others. The worst is this one on number 4 (furthest left in the photo).

IMG_20230108_133221752

This is number cylinder 4. Inlet valves at the top. One of the inlet valve springs is actually touching the cylinder head casting and you can see a grove worn into the head. This inlet valve does actually have some wear on the tip like the exhaust valves do.

IMG_20230108_133228647

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Cylinder 1 also has an inlet valve close to the cylinder head, it's not quite touching. You can see the difference in the way the exhaust valves sit, one noticeably closer to the casting than the other.

IMG_20230108_133257411

I'm definately writing this engine off, the scrap man will be chuffed the next time he's passing my house, Going to be getting himself a crank, rods, pistons and a cylinder head. The only thing left is the block.

[Escy]

I-am-the-reverend said:

This looks ok - same engine?

I'm going need a Jaguar XE, XF, F-Pace or a Range Rover Velar engine. The Discovery has the engine mounted horizontally.

[Escy]

skwdenyer said:

If you're thinking of scrapping everything except the block, doesn't a transverse engine become a viable option? From what was posted elsewhere, it is the block casting that has the different part number. Are the part numbers for the heads, etc. the same?

It also occurs to me, is is possible that the previous builder got the crank bearing caps muddled up (whether swapped, or flipped)? Do they come marked from the factory?

The caps are marked and were in the right order.

Keeping my block and buying another engine is an option at the right price. I mentioned earlier I agreed a deal to buy an Evoque engine that had a snapped chain. The idea was I could get the crankshaft and rods out of it. Someone offered him £35 more and I lost that engine.

I've seen people asking £1000 for engines with a rod out the side of the block so the prices are a bit stupid even on ones for spares.

I wouldn't fancy buying an known good engine in the 2.5-3k mark to take parts from.

I've got a plan, I'll share it once it's over the line.

[Escy]

cedrichn said:

I had no idea I was going to spend 30 minutes reading about a diesel SUV...but it was so worth it! You make your adventure really interesting, with the right level of explanation, details, pictures....and honesty!

All the best for your adventure

Thank you. Considering the type of car it is, it does seem quite popular, 17 pages already. I've got a other build threads where I do a load of work and just post a few pictures when it's all done. I was going to do similar with this but as I've been getting lots of replies I'm posting as and when I do something.

It's been really good for me, there's loads of knowledgeable people on here and I'm no expert so I'm learning as I go. There's been lots of useful input, people have noticed things in photos I've not spotted in the flesh and come up with things I've not considered. There's been plenty of useful advice. Also, Chris lending me his engine stand. This thread has been really helpful, not least the PH collective alerting me that the engine I was about to buy had the wrong block. That would have really taken this project down a cul-de-sac.

braddo said:

Good luck. It's an interesting and educational read and a showcase of your skills.

Thanks. I don't know if it's a showcase of my skills, I've said I'm going to re-build an engine, taken it apart and decided I don't fancy it anymore.

[Escy]

I replaced the outer CV boot that had a cheap stretchy one with a genuine one. You have to buy the inner and outer CV boots from JLR, the reason is, to get the outer off you need to remove the inner first. It's a big job, especially as you you'd need to drain the diff when removing the driveshaft. I can see why they went for a stretchy one.

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Regarding the plan I mentioned I had, that fell apart also. I'd eyed up a Jaguar XE with the same engine, it was crashed damaged, 46k miles on it. I've been offered it for £4150 delivered. It had plenty of bits I could of sold so the engine would have been cheap. It sold. I've struck out on 2 engines and car now.

I was driving myself crazy constantly searching for engines or cars, I decided to just buy all the bits to re-build my engine rather than wait.

I found a cylinder head with the rockers and lifters, off a fire damaged Discovery Sport with 21k miles at it's last MOT. Only £180 which seemed a good deal. I also bought the oil cooler off them for another £20, these are £180 from JLR, I figured since it hasn't suffered an engine failure like most it'll be good.

Then I bought a used genuine crank and a set of rods from the same guy for £800. Could have got new crank and rods for the same price but I'd rather genuine.

Aftermarket gasket set and set of genuine headbolts were another £200. Oversize pistons were £240. The total for all the parts came to just under £1500. Considerably more than I thought I was going to be spending, thought I was going to need a rod and a crank re-grind, worst case being a crank.

My pile of bits I hope I can turn into a nice reliable engine.

IMG_20230113_174802112

I started having a look at the new cylinder head and I'm not exactly off to a flying start. It's not as bad as my old head but the valves on this also show some signs of wear on the top of the stems. What's going on?! Are the valves poorly made? Inherent design issue? Seems odd considering this is a much lower mileage head. On the plus side, none of the valve springs are touching the the head casting like on mine.

IMG_20230113_215846296_HDR

Edited by Escy on Friday 13th January 23:14

[Escy]

I can't argue with that.

[Escy]

Maxdecel said:

"My pile of bits I hope I can turn into a nice reliable engine."

I hope so -
1 Stem tip wear-Never seen damage as in the original engine. BUT Can understand the "Swipe" mark as the rocker moves across the tip in operation. However : then why are the opposite stem tips not showing similar witness marks ?
Are the top left valves the exhaust side again, as in your original engine IIRC ?

2. Bottom L & R Valve spring retainers appear undamaged as opposed to Top L & R ? Pic appears to show those with indent marks in a rotational pattern ?

I'm sorry I can't offer any diagnosis, these are just observations from someone who's been around cars too long for his own good.

It's the exhaust valves with the wear, same as the other head. The marks on the valve spring retainers are strange, my old head didn't have this wear.

tvrfan007 said:

Good luck sir. Why not the whole engine from the man who sold the head? At least you have a path forwards now, but I have to be frank I would be tarting it up and flogging that.

I would surmise poor surface treatment and/or a preferential flow path for oil contamination are the likely candidates for that apparently selective and inconsistent damage pattern. What does the cam look like?

They sold the block in October. Splitting them up, seems an odd decision. They new head didn't come with the cams, I'm going to be using my original ones.