Rotrex powered R32

[Blue32]

aka_kerrly said:

Love the homemade diagnostics display, brilliant work! Group buy and suitable for OBD1 an 2?

Thanks not sure if it supports OBD1

A couple of weeks ago I had s ride in a 8P S3 The Phirm had just finished. The 2L TFSI engine in the S3 has been turned up to 11 and is running over 500hp + 400lb/ft. The thing that stood out for me was how well the DSG worked with it and how smooth it was with full throttle gear changes.

So this got me thinking….

The MKIV R32 was available with DSG in Europe and I know at least 1 right hand drive MKIV has been converted to DSG, so how hard can it be?

After trawling through ELSAwin and ETKA (VW/AUDI service manuals and parts catalogue) I compiled a list of everything needed for the conversion.

I found a place selling 02E DSG gear box which had covered 56k from a 3.2FSI B6 Passat, along with the gear box I also got the transfer case (sends drive to the rear) and a dual mass flywheel.








I went for this one over a MK1 Audi TT gearbox as it has the later mecatronic unit which is more reliable and has better software from the factory

The plan is to collect all the remaining parts over the next few months (to spread the cost) for the conversion to take place some time next year.

Parts left to get:
Gear selector + trim
Front drive shafts (inner CV joints are different between manual and DSG)
Coolant hoses for DSG oil cooler
Starter motor
Starter inhibitor + reverse light relay
Wiring and connectors

Some will think I’m mad for doing this to a 11 year old car, however I haven’t seen anything else I’d like to replace it with and I’m not overly keen on the looks of the MKV R32. And as big engine hatchbacks are now a thing of the past, I'd like to keep this one going for as long as possible

[Blue32]

StottyEvo said:

You're insane! I love it

I'm not a fan of autoboxes but I'd love to see how this performs with the DSG, have you put a Racelogic box in and measured the performance? It would be interesting to see the performance figures before and after the DSG box install.

Thanks Haven't measured the performance yet, but I do plan to try and get a before/after comparison.
Hopefully it should go something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8OSUbBUBaE but with smoother gear changes if what I experienced in the S3 is anything to go by.

JonnyxM said:

Epic just epic. Car is a credit to you.

Could I please get some more info on the little on board unit you built, I would like to look into something similar.

Written in C#, any API or wrappers. My C# isn't brilliant but this could be a good project!

Any good sources on the web?

Edited by JonnyxM on Monday 24th November 16:14

My C is pretty poor, I think the Arduino code is loosely based on C (although most of the time I cant tell the difference between C and MSbasic) the Arduino forums http://forum.arduino.cc/ look to be pretty helpful, although I haven't had to ask any questions yet.
Most of the code I used was taken from the libraries which are supplied with the Arduino package. Additional libraries for things like the display can be downloaded and added.

This is the board I'm using http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardMega2560

The adapter http://freematics.com/pages/products/arduino-obd-a...
freematics has a set of libraries for the interface which can be downloaded. I started with one of the examples from the page and just changed the PID value to get what I wanted.

[Blue32]

Got some more bits for project DSG

Coolant hose to gearbox oil cooler

Dealer wanted £81 for one, I found this one (new and unused) on German eBay for £31! Still need to get the return hose, might have to get it from VW

Drive shafts & gear selector


1 box of car spaghetti (complete engine and dashboard loom from a V6 DSG TT)

The plan is to spend the Xmas break stripping the wires I need to make a “plug n play” loom to go in to mine.
According to the wiring diagrams the only difference between the R32 and TT is that Audi uses a red/yellow wire for power to the gearbox, whereas the Golf uses a red wire. Everything else is the same.

Most important bit, connector to gearbox


Still need to get:
MKIV R32 DSG Steering wheel (these appear to be quite rare)
Coolant return from gearbox oil cooler
Gear selector trim

[Blue32]

C7 JFW said:

This is really exciting. Does this go hand in hand with one of the Multi-function steering wheels that are also very rare on the mkiv golf?

The MKIV R32 wasn't available with multi-function steering wheel. Although it could be added, however it would in this style (which doesn’t match the interior)

Unfortunately the MKIV multi-function steering wheel can’t have DSG paddles fitted.

mwstewart said:

Following with interest. I love integration work

Thanks, been watching both your projects which have given me some inspiration. I have already got a role of foam tape to put between all the interior panels when they go back together. Although surprisingly for a 11 year old car there aren’t too many rattles anyway.

[Blue32]

mwstewart said:

OP I guess you already know that the Mkiv R32 wheel was available in DSG format:



One of my upcoming projects is to convert a wood sport steering wheel to multifunction.

Yep I'm currently trying to get hold of one. The current "new" price from VW is £1,216.00 and that's without the airbag!
I have been looking to see if it's possible to convert my steering wheel by adding the paddles to it. Trouble is the paddles are £261 each, so I'm not sure how best to proceed.

Have you got a copy of ELSAWIN (VW manuals) and ETKA (VW parts catalogue) as for me they are both proving invaluable to this project.

[Blue32]

Remagel2507 said:

Looking forward to seeing how this one works out OP, love the MK4 and really the only thing I like about the MK5 R32 is the DSG combo available, so this is the best of both worlds for me.

Thanks, I did consider changing to a MKV, however I believe the air-conditioning compressor would have to be removed so the supercharger could be fitted. That’s one compromise too far!

Remagel2507 said:

Have you considered a DIY approach to the paddle shift steering wheel like this ?

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/610491

As mentioned above this might be a possibility, however there are some wiring peculiarities which need looking into.

I have grabbed some images from ElsaWin to try and explain. Obviously there needs to be a connections to the steering wheel for the paddles, connections are also needed for the airbag and horn.

The standard steering wheel has 4 connections (highlighted below), 2 for horn (H) and 2 for airbag (N95) via a “clock spring” (F138)


The wiring diagram for the DSG box (below) shows a 5 contact “clock spring” (F350) connection to the steering wheel. The paddles (E439 & E439) connect to the clock spring via 2 connections leaving 3 spare, but not showing the airbag or horn…


So I thought maybe the paddles and horn have to be connected via a “module” to allow 3 wires to be used leaving 2 for the airbag. As has been mentioned previously, the MKIV could have a multifunction steering wheel. I thought maybe this would be the answer, so I had a look at the multifunction steering wheel diagram.
As expected the airbag (N95) has a direct connection and the horn is connected via E211 (operating unit in steering wheel). Unfortunately none of the diagrams show any connection for the paddles or connections to the gearbox.


What I’m not sure of is there is no mention of the steering wheel buttons which are used to control the radio, cruse control etc… unless E221 is built into the buttons???

More research required……..

[Blue32]

trashbat said:

t describes it in the page header of your third image - "multi function steering wheel control unit". Although it seems some of the diagram is off to the right.

Also note that on my car (not VW, I don't know anything about their stuff) six steering wheel buttons actually just produce two line outs, with different voltages depending on what button is pressed.

The off page “multi function steering wheel control unit” just has connections to the radio, clocks and ECU for cruse control nothing to gearbox.

The “operating unit in steering wheel” is possibly a multiplexer, which is fine for digital (on/off) signals.
However the paddles don’t appear to be on/off type switches as they are connected in parallel. The diagram seems to imply they have resistors, I’m guessing the gearbox detects a change in resistance so the up paddle might be 1k and the down paddle might be 10k for example.

I have been looking at the TT wiring diagrams to try and get some clues. Unfortunately the TT is different, it uses 3 wires to the paddles. One common and separate up/down signals.


I made a start on pulling the wiring I needed from the TT loom. To make it easier I printed the wiring diagrams and stuck the pages together for both the R32(bottom) and TT(top).


I laid the engine/gearbox loom out on the floor, I need to strip out the gearbox connector (bottom left), followed, fused supply (top left by red & yellow connector), engine ECU connector (only need a couple of pins) and the connectors to the interior (hidden under black cover)


So far I have stripped out the wiring from the gearbox connector up to the relay box where the gearbox power fuse is located (I hate VW loom tape, it left my hands covered in sticky goo)


I laid out the interior loom to work out where the connections to steering wheel, gear selector and clocks are along with the additional relays needed.


I have also removed the TT trim from the gear selector



I had to destroy the button in the top of the gear lever to release it from the selector because the spring that pops it out had snapped and jammed which was a shame as I was going to use it temporally.


Have just ordered some tape to re-wrap the parts of the wiring loom I need.

[Blue32]

Finished stripping the tape from the loom today


Wiring to engine ECU connector


Pile of tape getting bigger


I started separating out the gearbox wiring, the wiring passes through a cover to get to the interior.


Got slowed down by the sealant VW put in the loom to seal it inside the rubber boot on the cover during manufacture. Had to cut it away without damaging any of the wires.


I need to remove the pins from the connectors so the wires can be pulled back through the rubber boot.


I have ordered the proper tool to remove the pins from the connector, can’t do much more until the tools arrive


Next step is to start on the interior loom, which will hopefully be easier as there is less fabric tape to deal with.

[Blue32]

The wiring looms are all done

Loom to gearbox


Interior looms to clocks/fuse box & gear selector



Before wrapping them in tape I laid the looms out in the car to check the length was ok

Gearbox loom for engine bay


Wiring to gear selector


The looms were wrapped using Tesa fabric tape (same as factory)


To make it easier to wrap I stretched the wiring across the kitchen and used a bungie cord to add some tension.


All wrapped and ready to go


I have ordered all the remaining parts I need (apart from steering wheel) from VW, some parts have to come from the factory so will take a couple of weeks to arrive.

The plan is for the gearbox to be fitted in late March / early April

[Blue32]

BecSte said:

Just read all 10 pages. What an incredible thread & car!!

Thanks

farm2 said:

Well well mate just read though it all great right up looking forward to the dsg !!! I bet you can't wait it's going to fly when that hooks up

Thanks, it will certainly will fly when it’s done, You’ll have to get one so you can keep up

The last few parts I have been waiting for arrived today




I couldn’t resist unpacking some of the bigger bits


Next step is to get it all fitted.

[Blue32]

Picked this up yesterday to keep me mobile when the gearbox swap takes place.


It's a 2004 105bhp TDI (1.9 PD engine), it came with a nice big folder of history, has 4 new tyres of indeterminate make, interior and exterior just need a bit of TLC.

[Blue32]

Update time

In preparation for the gearbox swap I trial fitted the trim pieces on the gear selector to make sure everything was there and fitted.

Still need to work out how to swap the release button on the gear knob from LHD to RHD. In case anyone is wondering what the tape on the button is for, It’s so the button can be pulled out to release it from the stick

I have installed some of the wiring starting with the connector for the gearbox (grey plug).

Also fitted the relays (2x 126 relay).

Couldn’t do much more as I need to remove the clocks and windscreen wipers to access the remainder of the wiring.

Also tidied up the wiring for the water/meth injection as the pump relay and the excess wiring had been tucked behind the relay box in the engine bay. I decided to move the pump relay inside the relay box.


Pulled all the wiring out


I removed a relay base from the TT loom I had cannibalised and remade the connections to use with the water/meth injection


Relay base and fuse contacts fitted to relay box


All finished

You may have noticed some exposed wiring loom near the bottom of the picture. I have left it like this as the power for the gearbox will be connected into the relay box. Once the gearbox is fitted I’ll re-wrap the wiring loom so it's all protected.

The car is booked in at The Phirm for the swap to start on 1st of May

[Blue32]

The gearbox is now in




Gear shifter fitted


Gearbox loom installation, wiring pulled through wiring cover and gearbox connector (white plug)


Gear box power wiring and fuse(yellow fuse) added to relay box


Gearbox loom tucked into wire guide

Wire guide cover refitted


Dashboard disassembly so I can add clock spring, steering wheel paddle wiring and connections up to clocks


Wiring up to clocks, I didn’t fancy un-picking the loom, so ran the new wiring alongside the original loom. The wires are secured with fabric tape


The car is now officially automatic, clutch pedal & master cylinder removed still need to fit the larger brake pedal.


After a false start (I forgot to put a fuse in) it’s working
[

No coding required, display started working straight away, new light on clocks telling me to put foot on brake to take out of park


Lights on shifter


Tiptronic mode


VCDS communicating with gearbox


Centre console back in, there are some minor fitment issues to resolve


Still to fit

Starter motor
Coolant hoses, as gearbox has oil cooler linked to engine coolant
Re map gear box and engine ECU’s
Source replacement drive shaft, as one of the drive shafts I bought (supposedly from a DSG TT) doesn’t fit. If it wasn’t for that it might have been possible to drive the car today

Still need to get a DSG steering wheel

[Blue32]

glasgowrob said:

utterly amazing,


some serious work went into this kudos

Thanks, allot of the credit needs to go to the guys at The Phirm for doing all the hard work on putting it together.

OliilO said:

Looks awesome, I bet you can't wait to get it finished! Did Tim do some of the work or did you do it all yourself?

Yep can't wait, Jay and Tim fitted the gearbox, I have done all the electrical work.

[Blue32]

It’s alive (sort of)

The drive shaft issue is now sorted, the guys at the Phirm made a custom drive shaft which is now fitted. There was always going to be some custom work required when trying to combine MKIV R32, B6 Passat and Audi TT.

I finished up the wiring today by sealing the loom where it enters the rubber boot to go through to the interior.


The gearbox is now plumbed into the coolant system


Larger brake pedal fitted (took me over ½ hour to get the trim onto the pedal


Video of first test drive, didn’t go far as one of the wheel arch liners dropped and was scraping on the road (due to under tray not fitted back yet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHasMuODsNc&fe...

There are a couple of minor things to take care of, the first is the lack of speedo, the gear box and engine ECU’s are both showing vehicle speed, but for some reason the clocks aren’t. Second is the brake pedal is sticking a bit.

However just as I was driving it back in the workshop for the weekend all comms with the gearbox were lost causing loss of drive. So kind of spoilt what seamed like a successful day.
Hopefully it ‘s just a loose wire or fuse

[Blue32]

The car is now running properly with the DSG. All faults are now cleared so everything works as it should.
I took the car out for a test drive and I was really pleased, the gear changes are soo smooth and seamless it just goes. I made a quick video with the gopro to show how it accelerates when in “D” (I haven’t tried launching it yet)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOrDLIaURVw&fe...

I tried Sport as well, (no video yet) the gearbox map is going to be updated to increase the shift speed in sport.
In manual mode it will hold the gear, and will not change unless I change it.

The only change I have asked for after the test drive was to alter the shift point so when cruising at low speed it will use 6th gear, as with the manual box I could drive at 30mph in 6th whereas the DSG want’s to use 5th.
The next step is to sort the launch control which will be fully adjustable (launch rpm), and recalibrate the clutches, if all goes to plan I get it back next Saturday.

[Blue32]

Car is now all done and driving really well. It had its first major test at GTI international at the weekend.
Managed 4 runs up ¼ mile before it rained with the best being a 12.096 @ 113mph


I was hoping to get into the 11s, but overall I was happy with how it ran.

Video of my last run on the ¼ mile where it did a 12.2, my reaction time was a bit slow (my excuse is the 4am start to get there)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GjQIxw0ufQ

And from inside
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2OuLOWr6BQ

[Blue32]

aka_kerrly said:

12sec is mighty good going for a full interior and road tyres.

Looking back at the video, the gearbox short shifted on the change from 2-3. It should change at 7000rpm, but fore some reason it changed at 6200, so there is potential to get it into the 11’s. There is also the option to run 109ron race fuel

Just got back from a 1,500 mile road trip in France. Found some lovely twisty mountain roads, which were great fun, there were also some nice straight clear roads.


It was very tempting to go for a vmax, but the French have a habit of hiding under camouflage (not very sporting) the picture was taken on the A20 heading towards Cere in central France.

The DSG was great in the stop start Paris traffic, it made the journey so much easier which helped when the outside temp was 41c and the AC was struggling.


The only downsides were on the return from Dover the front number plate fell off somewhere on the M20 (does look so much better without it).


And the bumper is a now bug graveyard.


So it’s off to VW today for a new number plate & plinth then out with the bug remover to get it cleaned up

[Blue32]

New brake pads fitted yesterday. I fitted the toureg callipers at 70k, the car is now on 112k so the pads have lasted about 40k.
On disassembly I was surprised to see the state of the pads. On the driver side the inner pad still had the slots from manufacture, the outer pad was a lot thinner and had lost a chunk of the pad material.

Inner pad


Outer pad, with missing chunk


New Brembo pad


New vs old


Pads fitted with new retainers and bolts



Passenger side, again the outer pad had a lot more wear than the inner.


I had also planned to replace the rear disks and pads but couldn’t get the disk of the hub (yes I did remember to remove the screw). After applying lots of heat and beating on the disk with a wooden mallet for ½ hour I gave up.

[Blue32]

Had a day out at the Comrades of VAG meet @ AMD Essex yesterday. I got mugged in to running on the rollers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ-NM7OhFY0

Thanks to DougalR for getting the video, my ears were ringing for an hour, think the noise cleared the workshop.

A frame from the video is now my desktop wallpaper


Also ran the car at the GTI Festival@ Santa Pod a few weeks back. Did 8 runs with the best being a 12.07 for the ¼ mile.
Which isn’t bad considering it I didn’t remove any weight and had ¾ tank of fuel.


I found a video showing a couple of the runs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AEfvgiRsf4