MG ZS 120+ - aka "The Learning Experience"
Discussion
Smitters said:
I'll run it up to temp with water and radflush, drain that, and the oil, change the oil and filter, flush the water pipes with a hose, use MGJohns somewhat dubious dishwasher tablet trick ( no really ) and then run it up to temp again. If all seems leak-free (ha!) then I'll do the second coat of paint and seal-sealing gubbins underneath and actually drive it about a bit.
If that all happens this weekend, you will be as shocked as I will.
Hmm. Not quite. If that all happens this weekend, you will be as shocked as I will.
Firstly, apologies for the sea of text and zero images. PH isn't letting me load any pics. I'll edit if I can.... and edited.
I had grumbled a bit about the exhaust manifold from eBay. Anyway, the new one with some elbow grease came up OK, so that went on with new stainless studs that had an allen key end, plus copper nuts. A new gasket below the cat, chuck the lambda in (may have been more careful had I known the replacement cost...) and button everything else up as planned.
But, the big win was it started, ran, didn't smash valves or misfire horribly and generally seemed successful.
The first obvious issue was the tappets. The head had been stored in a variety of angles for about six months, so it was fairly dry. I primed the cam area as best I could and manually turned things over a few times to move the oil about, but clearly everything was going to be dry.
I then pulled the fuel pump fuse and removed the coils, then turned it over for a good 30 seconds. All the time, regretting that forgotten oil change. Perhaps most worryingly, the low-oil light never came on... never mid waiting for it to go out. Still, I added back the fuse and coils and hey presto, I have my own sewing machine imitator.
Nervous Man
It only had water in it the first time out, so I ran it up a bit, then drained the water and oil, put on a new filter and sump plug, then set about gathering various left-over 1 litre bottles of 10w4 for courtesy sets I've scrounged or been given over the years. A crude oil change later and the results were better.
Happier Man
So then I flushed the rad, pipes and coolant out well, including with some Holts and then a dishwasher tab (grains only, not the gel!), then filled with proper coolant.
However, I found several annoying things.
The fan either doesn't kick in until well over 102 degrees, which is hard to obtain sitting still in a cold garage, or doesn't work at all.
Oil comes out from somewhere. Mr DVandrews was kind enough to give some advice, so I'll be hunting that leak down this weekend. I had feared it was coming out between head and block, but apparently if it does that, the coolant goes an odd colour quite quickly, so the suspect is capillary action and a higher source point. Annoyingly, I think this may be the exhaust cam seal on the belt end, so forsee dropping the engine mount and un-timing the engine to have a peek. #good practice #totalballache That said, I may be able to see just by getting the covers off, though I still need to pull the engine mount.
However, I've seen enough to convince me it's worth pursuing further, so I've spent some pocket money on:
4 x Nankang Sportnex NS-2
4 x Pagid discs
Goodridge braided hoses (cheaper than OEM)
Pagid 5.1 fluid
New fuel filter
Black Diamond Fast Track front pads and Predator rear pads
I tried to explain it was boxes of safety. And yes - totally chaotic house...
This led to the realisation I'm into the car more in parts than it cost to buy, but I'm still hunting out bargains - the fluid, discs and filter, plus 5L of oil cost £90 from ECP thanks to a bank holiday discount code and the BD pads were less than £90 all in. No, they're not going to be as good as Ferodo etc, but this was always about bang for buck, not outright performance.
The Nankangs are a total shot in the dark. About £5 cheaper per corner than Toyo T1Rs, but way less than anything properly aggressive, I'll see how I get on.
I have also booked it into a very local garage for an hours look-over next Friday. I figure while it's fun to play, I could do with an expert opinion too, which will give me a list of things to work on, or, if it's really bad news, a pile of parts to return. I'd feel happier taking it on track knowing someone else has given it a once over.
Edited by Smitters on Thursday 9th May 14:57
InitialDave said:
Mate put Nankang NS-20s (appears they're the replacement for the NS-2?) on his MX5, they seem reasonable enough.
I put PS4s on my ZS, worth more than the car!
Good to know. There's a long list of things I can do after I've run the car a while, including playing with the suspension and so on, but once it's been MOT'd and OK for driving, I will need to lay off the £££ and start actually using it. I'd rather spend £150 on an Abingdon TD than on a wheel refurb. But by God they need doing!I put PS4s on my ZS, worth more than the car!
I've really made some late night progress this week and have buttoned everything up ready for tomorrow's inspection.
Bumper back on, side-skirts on and I've decontaminated some of the cabin and the driver's seat. I'm now happy to touch the steering wheel and HVAC buttons. I even found 20p, so that's money back. I didn't take any pre-post in car pics for some reason, but it was bad and is less bad - see my grotty knob below.
Looks like a car again!
Grotty Knob
Shiny Knob!
The bulk of any effort has gone into rust-proofing. First I replaced the seam-seal I'd ground and peeled off where it was loose. I've sprayed the sills, chassis legs, arches and underside at the front with Bilt Hamber S50. Finally I've started adding some Dynax-UB. It needs two coats, but one will have to wait as I've got to drive it. At least it's summer. Top tip - buy the spray can. On a cool evening it's like painting with plasticine.
Seams
S50 spray on brown gunk
Even gunkier gunk
I even added a towstrap from my Caterham days. There was some debate, but I think if I'm going in, I'm understeering off, so it went on the back.
I've even got a bit giddy and bought bling. Well, I say bling, MG dust caps for the wheels (subsequently lost - grrrr), a new exhaust tail (eBay's best bolt on) and some nice centre caps to make popping wheels on and off for trackdays. Except they don't fit all the wheels - somehow, while the centrebores on the hub side are the same (thank God), the centrebore on the outside is 2mm bigger on three of the four and while they look lovely, they're not staying put. Ho hum.
So, garage tomorrow and then I'll share the report card. Or my tearful face. Or both.
Bumper back on, side-skirts on and I've decontaminated some of the cabin and the driver's seat. I'm now happy to touch the steering wheel and HVAC buttons. I even found 20p, so that's money back. I didn't take any pre-post in car pics for some reason, but it was bad and is less bad - see my grotty knob below.
Looks like a car again!
Grotty Knob
Shiny Knob!
The bulk of any effort has gone into rust-proofing. First I replaced the seam-seal I'd ground and peeled off where it was loose. I've sprayed the sills, chassis legs, arches and underside at the front with Bilt Hamber S50. Finally I've started adding some Dynax-UB. It needs two coats, but one will have to wait as I've got to drive it. At least it's summer. Top tip - buy the spray can. On a cool evening it's like painting with plasticine.
Seams
S50 spray on brown gunk
Even gunkier gunk
I even added a towstrap from my Caterham days. There was some debate, but I think if I'm going in, I'm understeering off, so it went on the back.
I've even got a bit giddy and bought bling. Well, I say bling, MG dust caps for the wheels (subsequently lost - grrrr), a new exhaust tail (eBay's best bolt on) and some nice centre caps to make popping wheels on and off for trackdays. Except they don't fit all the wheels - somehow, while the centrebores on the hub side are the same (thank God), the centrebore on the outside is 2mm bigger on three of the four and while they look lovely, they're not staying put. Ho hum.
So, garage tomorrow and then I'll share the report card. Or my tearful face. Or both.
Edited by Smitters on Thursday 9th May 15:03
For a very, very reasonable £22.97, the garage did a "NOT", just like an MOT, but not (geddit?).
TLDR, it'll fail. Not a shock, nor a disaster
Good news really, in that the list I got was:
Emissions pass (!!!)
1 x bulb out
Windscreen cracked but only an advisory
Headlamps mis-aimed
Engine Light and fault codes x 2 (charcoal canister and cam sensor)
1 x CV boot split
Hand brake at lower limit (but a pass)
And then the PITA - both front to rear brakepipes are corroded. Who makes brakepipes out of a corrodible material? Anyway, they're not made in-shape anymore, so my options are:
1) buy some line and a flaring tool and get creative (and then buy some more line, and try again, rinse and repeat until insanity)
2) take my nice new Goodridge hoses, new discs, pads and fluid to said local garage and just let them do it right first time
Only 50% of the rover engined cars pictured have HGF
I know which would be more satisfying, but I've burnt all my favours with my OH, what with late nights, parts arriving daily and our drive looking like a crap Le Mans garage. Given the windscreen is not an MOT fail and therefore not as urgent as before, the budget can be shifted about a bit and if there's anything you want a pro to do right, it's brakes. Plus I have gardening to do, which benefits the whole family...
The mechanic was generally complimentary on the car and said it was a good example and everything was nice and tight - minimal slop on joints etc. I can only assume this has had some new or recon suspension parts then.
Once given the OK, I then took it for a bit of a drive. It had ancient fuel, so I popped 15L of Shell's best in and went for an Italian tune-up, while watching my TorquePro app read-out like a hawk. Coolant temps stayed solid and even wihtout any spiking, the heater blows hot even with holes in the stat. Once warmed up it revved out nicely, losing puff about 6,500 on a redline of 7,000. It's not fast, but that was never the point. It does have some hesitations, which could be the ECU struggling with a new cam, a disturbed cam sensor, mucky fuel or a litany of other niggly things, but in general it runs well. I spotted a NOS 52mm throttle body for £60 including a TPS and since I thought I needed a TPS (see below) and they're £50, it seemed a smart move. Will the MG get cold air induction and a bigger TB on a budget? Watch this space.
Locally known as The Special Stage
Having got it running, naturally the Elise threw a fit, so my other priority is finding out why that doesn't want to start now... hint, it's not the TPS.
TLDR, it'll fail. Not a shock, nor a disaster
Good news really, in that the list I got was:
Emissions pass (!!!)
1 x bulb out
Windscreen cracked but only an advisory
Headlamps mis-aimed
Engine Light and fault codes x 2 (charcoal canister and cam sensor)
1 x CV boot split
Hand brake at lower limit (but a pass)
And then the PITA - both front to rear brakepipes are corroded. Who makes brakepipes out of a corrodible material? Anyway, they're not made in-shape anymore, so my options are:
1) buy some line and a flaring tool and get creative (and then buy some more line, and try again, rinse and repeat until insanity)
2) take my nice new Goodridge hoses, new discs, pads and fluid to said local garage and just let them do it right first time
Only 50% of the rover engined cars pictured have HGF
I know which would be more satisfying, but I've burnt all my favours with my OH, what with late nights, parts arriving daily and our drive looking like a crap Le Mans garage. Given the windscreen is not an MOT fail and therefore not as urgent as before, the budget can be shifted about a bit and if there's anything you want a pro to do right, it's brakes. Plus I have gardening to do, which benefits the whole family...
The mechanic was generally complimentary on the car and said it was a good example and everything was nice and tight - minimal slop on joints etc. I can only assume this has had some new or recon suspension parts then.
Once given the OK, I then took it for a bit of a drive. It had ancient fuel, so I popped 15L of Shell's best in and went for an Italian tune-up, while watching my TorquePro app read-out like a hawk. Coolant temps stayed solid and even wihtout any spiking, the heater blows hot even with holes in the stat. Once warmed up it revved out nicely, losing puff about 6,500 on a redline of 7,000. It's not fast, but that was never the point. It does have some hesitations, which could be the ECU struggling with a new cam, a disturbed cam sensor, mucky fuel or a litany of other niggly things, but in general it runs well. I spotted a NOS 52mm throttle body for £60 including a TPS and since I thought I needed a TPS (see below) and they're £50, it seemed a smart move. Will the MG get cold air induction and a bigger TB on a budget? Watch this space.
Locally known as The Special Stage
Having got it running, naturally the Elise threw a fit, so my other priority is finding out why that doesn't want to start now... hint, it's not the TPS.
Cambs_Stuart said:
So how does it drive? As much fun as expected?
Not too bad to be honest. With the caveat that I'm still scrubbing the release agent off the tyres, it feels entertaining to drive in an old school way. Not surprising really. The rear is certainly mobile - a sharp lift of a roundabout definitely alters the dynamics. It's not going to cock a back wheel anytime soon, but it'll respond to the throttle in corners. Stiffening up the rear and some trail braking and I can see it being a fun proposition on track. It understeers a little to easily currently, but I'll hope that's down to the tyres still.Basically the same car...
The steering is nicely weighted and feels direct, though the lock is atrocious. Pedals are well placed and it's easy to get comfy, though I end up arms a bit straight as my knees bang on the column shroud if I heel and toe in my prefer arm position. Need to play about a bit.
Gearshift is, well, mostly functional. If you think of a rifle-bolt gear shift, this is the opposite end of the spectrum. Cables, old bushes, loads of slop.
With 40 profile tyres (should be 45s, but a) cheap, and b) slightly smaller circumference for the acceleration) it can be crashy, partly also down to tired dampers, but on smooth roads it's composed. There's a creak from the rear that I suspect will be a big, expensive and difficult to replace bush, but I'll start with ARB stuff and work upwards.
Fast it isn't, but that was never the plan. It revs nicely to 6500, which is better than the 120 cams and pulls OK low down, so I suspect track will be a lot of 2nd, 3rd and 4th. The exhaust has no rear silencer and drones on part throttle, but sounds pretty nice when hard on the pedal, which is nice. Good to have a rorty little soundtrack.
Maneki Neko on - my good luck charm
I've had an OBDII reader plugged in and been monitoring the coolant temps and it's lovely and steady. The needle seems to track the app well, though it's interesting to see how false the gauge is - barely moves until 60 degrees, then up to 90, nicely in the middle, but let the actual tempt go to 100 and the gauge barely registers! I'm hoping to add some more useful data to the screen and find a solid mount so I can have real-time info on track.
The car had pretty old fuel in it, so I popped in some V-Power and a double dose of Redex to see if I could cure the occasional hesitation on part throttle. I still have to replace the fuel filter too, but all in good time. There's still an oil leak to fix.
Edited by Smitters on Monday 13th May 11:55
Fyi, I absolutely hate the moron who bodged a bolt into my front caliper carrier. Its midnight, I'm 48 hours from a track day and might be scuppered by a £1 bolt.
May a thousand bees sting your ballsack sir. A thousand angry, massive bees.
Spot the not very subtle thread per inch difference...
May a thousand bees sting your ballsack sir. A thousand angry, massive bees.
Spot the not very subtle thread per inch difference...
Smitters said:
Cambs_Stuart said:
So how does it drive? As much fun as expected?
Not too bad to be honest. With the caveat that I'm still scrubbing the release agent off the tyres, it feels entertaining to drive in an old school way. Not surprising really. The rear is certainly mobile - a sharp lift of a roundabout definitely alters the dynamics. It's not going to cock a back wheel anytime soon, but it'll respond to the throttle in corners. Stiffening up the rear and some trail braking and I can see it being a fun proposition on track. It understeers a little to easily currently, but I'll hope that's down to the tyres still.Basically the same car...
The steering is nicely weighted and feels direct, though the lock is atrocious. Pedals are well placed and it's easy to get comfy, though I end up arms a bit straight as my knees bang on the column shroud if I heel and toe in my prefer arm position. Need to play about a bit.
Gearshift is, well, mostly functional. If you think of a rifle-bolt gear shift, this is the opposite end of the spectrum. Cables, old bushes, loads of slop.
With 40 profile tyres (should be 45s, but a) cheap, and b) slightly smaller circumference for the acceleration) it can be crashy, partly also down to tired dampers, but on smooth roads it's composed. There's a creak from the rear that I suspect will be a big, expensive and difficult to replace bush, but I'll start with ARB stuff and work upwards.
Fast it isn't, but that was never the plan. It revs nicely to 6500, which is better than the 120 cams and pulls OK low down, so I suspect track will be a lot of 2nd, 3rd and 4th. The exhaust has no rear silencer and drones on part throttle, but sounds pretty nice when hard on the pedal, which is nice. Good to have a rorty little soundtrack.
Maneki Neko on - my good luck charm
I've had an OBDII reader plugged in and been monitoring the coolant temps and it's lovely and steady. The needle seems to track the app well, though it's interesting to see how false the gauge is - barely moves until 60 degrees, then up to 90, nicely in the middle, but let the actual tempt go to 100 and the gauge barely registers! I'm hoping to add some more useful data to the screen and find a solid mount so I can have real-time info on track.
The car had pretty old fuel in it, so I popped in some V-Power and a double dose of Redex to see if I could cure the occasional hesitation on part throttle. I still have to replace the fuel filter too, but all in good time. There's still an oil leak to fix.
Edited by Smitters on Monday 13th May 11:55
The gear linkage is a common problem and bush kits are easy to find on ebay. If you prefer a DIY fix, a steering column UJ can be welded to the shift rod in place of the original.
The main Bush that goes on the rear suspension is the trailing arm mount, they are cheap to buy and are the same part as mk2 Rover 200/400 and 90's honda civics.
Cromp85 said:
A bit of advice from a fellow Rover owner:
The gear linkage is a common problem and bush kits are easy to find on ebay. If you prefer a DIY fix, a steering column UJ can be welded to the shift rod in place of the original.
The main Bush that goes on the rear suspension is the trailing arm mount, they are cheap to buy and are the same part as mk2 Rover 200/400 and 90's honda civics.
Cheers - something to look into post payday and below the radar. We're dangerously close to another "that fThe gear linkage is a common problem and bush kits are easy to find on ebay. If you prefer a DIY fix, a steering column UJ can be welded to the shift rod in place of the original.
The main Bush that goes on the rear suspension is the trailing arm mount, they are cheap to buy and are the same part as mk2 Rover 200/400 and 90's honda civics.
king car" moment. Whether it comes from me or the OH, I'm not sure, but it's testing my patience a bit. I'll do a proper update next week.Will it be:
a) tears of joy as I have a wonderful trackday at Silverstone
b) tears of frustration and rage as I rinse £250 of tracktime for a £1 bolt, a £2 oil seal or a £10 belt or
c) something I've not even thought of yet...
Tune in next week to find out...
Smitters said:
Will it be:
a) tears of joy as I have a wonderful trackday at Silverstone
b) tears of frustration and rage as I rinse £250 of tracktime for a £1 bolt, a £2 oil seal or a £10 belt or
c) something I've not even thought of yet...
Tune in next week to find out...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsH_kHXYkpE&feature=youtu.bea) tears of joy as I have a wonderful trackday at Silverstone
b) tears of frustration and rage as I rinse £250 of tracktime for a £1 bolt, a £2 oil seal or a £10 belt or
c) something I've not even thought of yet...
Tune in next week to find out...
So (a) then.
Long story short, the bolt went in, my Dad and I bled much air and s
te out of the brakes, I changed the oil, torque checked everything about a million times and tried to get some sleep.The car went well all day, with the exception of a misfire under throttle that occasionally occurred and will require investigation. It was a hot day, so I was limiting myself to five laps at a time, out, three fast and a cooldown. Even so, the coolant temps were heading up to 110 degrees C - you can hear the alarm pinging in the video. So, there's some thoughts to be given to cooling too. Even leaving it to sit for 20 minutes did little to drop the temps below 80 degrees. I am very impressed with the combo of an OBDII reader and the Torque Pro app. Having the coolant alarm set so easily is a good thing in my view.
I also have many good things to say about MSE trackdays. They're really well run and the driving standards are the highest I've seen over a variety of TDOs. Even with big power and speed differences, pretty much everyone on the day was well behaved. I'd heartily recommend them, but especially so for someone new to trackdays.
P.P.P.P.P.P...
In it's natural environment. Just needs an orange RAC livery. And about 300 more bhp.
Edited by Smitters on Thursday 30th May 11:19
RazerSauber said:
Looks great, glad everything went well. I bet it's double the joy too since you know it's your handy work that put it there.
What plans are you making for cooling? Simple rad fan switch or bigger rad etc?
Thanks - there was a huge amount of satisfaction in knowing I'd done lots of work on it. and a fair bit of surprise too...What plans are you making for cooling? Simple rad fan switch or bigger rad etc?
Cooling wise I need to read up. I have two holes in the stat, but it would have been fully open most of the time. The car has aircon, so from a weight and rad blocking point of view, it's worth removing, especially as it doesn't work. However, I think the best course may well be a bigger rad, a fan override and also a re-bleed of the system. It gets warm quite quickly, which may just be my system, or may be symptomatic of air, or another issue. I'll have to see.
I suspect we'll challenge my fab skills next, since I'll probably be cobbling in a rad that wasn't designed for a ZS. Still, it may also provide a slot for a cold air intake too, since I have a 52mm TB just sitting about, doing nothing much.
However, priority one is getting it an MOT. This was the list:
1 x bulb out DONE
Windscreen cracked but only an advisory IGNORE
Headlamps mis-aimed TODO
Engine Light and fault codes x 2 (charcoal canister and cam sensor) WILL RESET
1 x CV boot split TODO (parts now in hand)
Hand brake at lower limit (but a pass) DONE
Rusty Brake Hoses TODO
Will do the CV myself and apply some wire brush and kurust to the brake lines, then let the garage sort the headlights pre-test. The cam sensor EML hasn't re-occured, so probably threw itself because of removing and refitting. The charcoal cnister is repetitive, but I'll get there in time. It's SORN right now, so as long as it's done over June I can MOT in July and save a few quid on tax. The next trackday is Abingdon in mid-July, so there is some urgency.
gweaver said:
What state is the rad in? I wonder if it's clogged internally, possibly by radweld?
What he said.. As an old vid from the Skid Factory says, the original cooling system is designed to keep that engine cool in a lot of conditions, have a look at water flows, check it is working as it should before you start modifying it I think!Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff