Discussion
Well a couple of days on and I'm resigned to the fact I will have to rebuild the bottom end of the engine. Obviously I have everything crossed that the head is OK but hopefully I will know for sure tomorrow.
It looks likely that a combination of things culminated with spinning a shell though, starting with the overheat when the alternator mounting bush failed and threw the belt. Follow this with rich running once a new fuel pressure regulator went on and we are well on our way to the bearing / shell failing I guess?
I did ask the mapper for a copy of the map, so that I had as much relevant information as possible, but he became super defensive and refused to let me have access to my own ECU. I told him that I wanted the information to be aware of all the facts but he accused me of wanting to pass it on to his competitors. The icing on the cake though, is he went and helped himself to my car and removed the map from my ECU. He did not have my permission to do so and I am shocked by the arrogance of the guy. Mind you, he tells me he is (and I quote) ''one of the top DTA N/A mappers and 4 cylinder engine builders in the UK''. Just a shame his interpersonal skills are so lacking. In truth, I didn't really lay blame at his feet but he seems to think otherwise. Yes, I repeatedly asked what power / torque my engine made and was only ever told ''200 and something''. Yes, I felt it was running a bit too rich after the new FPR was fitted and finally, yes, I asked to be able to see the map for myself. Personally I don't think any of that should be an issue and if his map is so good, surely it would withstand scrutiny? So why sneak down and delete it? Make up your own mind. I've wasted enough time on this idiot.
Well I guess I will just have to chalk it up to experience and learn from it.
JC Racing are going to refurb' the ITB's I have coming soon (thanks Ian) and I plan to have them shot peen and polish the OE rods, then re use with ARP bolts. A rebore and oversize CP pistons I think should do it.
It looks likely that a combination of things culminated with spinning a shell though, starting with the overheat when the alternator mounting bush failed and threw the belt. Follow this with rich running once a new fuel pressure regulator went on and we are well on our way to the bearing / shell failing I guess?
I did ask the mapper for a copy of the map, so that I had as much relevant information as possible, but he became super defensive and refused to let me have access to my own ECU. I told him that I wanted the information to be aware of all the facts but he accused me of wanting to pass it on to his competitors. The icing on the cake though, is he went and helped himself to my car and removed the map from my ECU. He did not have my permission to do so and I am shocked by the arrogance of the guy. Mind you, he tells me he is (and I quote) ''one of the top DTA N/A mappers and 4 cylinder engine builders in the UK''. Just a shame his interpersonal skills are so lacking. In truth, I didn't really lay blame at his feet but he seems to think otherwise. Yes, I repeatedly asked what power / torque my engine made and was only ever told ''200 and something''. Yes, I felt it was running a bit too rich after the new FPR was fitted and finally, yes, I asked to be able to see the map for myself. Personally I don't think any of that should be an issue and if his map is so good, surely it would withstand scrutiny? So why sneak down and delete it? Make up your own mind. I've wasted enough time on this idiot.
Well I guess I will just have to chalk it up to experience and learn from it.
JC Racing are going to refurb' the ITB's I have coming soon (thanks Ian) and I plan to have them shot peen and polish the OE rods, then re use with ARP bolts. A rebore and oversize CP pistons I think should do it.
Edited by e30m3Mark on Tuesday 31st October 22:22
You could have a machinist put a hone pattern on the bores and use stock size pistons given the low miles since the last rebuild. That is if the pistons are toast, which they might not be.
By the sounds of it I'd rather use sandy bog paper to wipe my brown eye with than deal with people like that.
By the sounds of it I'd rather use sandy bog paper to wipe my brown eye with than deal with people like that.
Edited by stevesingo on Tuesday 31st October 22:34
stevesingo said:
By the sounds of it I'd rather use sandy bog paper to wipe my brown eye with than deal with people like that.
As I said to him, this could all have been sorted amicably had he simply given me a time / day that was convenient for him and met me at the car. Instead, he dropped everything, headed across and looked without my being there. Then he criticised me for not going over in response to a text I received over 2 hours later. (We live in the sticks and signal isn't great but he didn't like that explanation either). Because I dared ask for a printout from my ecu I am then accused of wanting to hand the info over to competitors, before he gets even more defensive / angry about my daring to question (as he sees it) his ability etc. Finally he goes and helps himself to my car and removes the map I paid for. I mean, that's not suspicious at all is it? 
In truth, I do not blame him or his mapping for the failure. I was unhappy about a couple of things that may / may not have contributed, such as rich running after the FPR was replaced, but as he said himself there have been a few, smaller accumulative things. I was only really interested in getting the whole picture and learning from it, so I could be sure it doesn't happen again. He simply refuses to accept that though. As I said, this could have easily / amicably been resolved.
Anyway, onwards and upwards....
helix402 said:
Did it spin a big end bearing? Is the crank journal ok size wise?
I'll hopefully find out later today. I should be free for a couple of hours this morning and I hope to go see the engine builder in person.Mikeeb said:
You seem to be taking this very well I’d be spitting blood.
Hope the damage to the journal is minimal and the bored are good.
Good luck finding a decent mapper for when it’s rebuilt.
I was, but I have to shoulder some of the responsibility and there is also an element of sheer bad luck. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I wish I had fitted a new alternator mounting bush and water pump when the engine went back in, instead of assuming both were fine. A mistake I shan't make again. I am also wondering if I should fit a new oil pump this time, as a belt and braces approach?Hope the damage to the journal is minimal and the bored are good.
Good luck finding a decent mapper for when it’s rebuilt.
I am literally just in from work, having a coffee and about to head off to see the engine builder to agree a plan.
t luck. I would speak to the builder and see if there's been any swarf move around the engine. If that is the case I'd be fitting a new oil pump too. Is it some sort of unobtainium S14 specific pump?Well the there's a list of contributing factors to the failure.
1. Overheat when the alternator bush failed.
2. FSE adjustable FPR seems to be lacked consistency which will have effected mixture.
3. Subsequent FPR replacement led to excessively rich mixture and required a 2nd mapping session.
4. When driven hard (such as the sessions I did at Brands Hatch in August) the engine ran hotter than expected. The engine builder suggested a more efficient oil cooler be fitted in future.
5. Poor rod design. I'm no engineer but the gist of it was the poor oil way design, combined with the excessive heat, led to premature failure.
Now the builder says that he'd said he was unhappy to use the rods I had supplied but that fact never reached me. The only thing I was told was that he thought they were heavy, or else I simply wouldn't have used them. At the end of the day though, I supplied them, I didn't speak to the builder in person and maybe I should have just stuck with more established brands, such as Arrow etc? Bottom line, I just have to take responsibility and learn from the mistake.
I still feel that I should have been given the results of the initial mapping session, in the form of a dyno print out. I do not think simply being told ''it's making 200 and something'' is enough. Nor do I see the point of mapping a car with an FPR that isn't maintaining consistent pressure. I do wonder if the hot running was down to the rich mixture and an element of bore wash? I also don't like being accused of lying, potentially tampering with settings and passing information to competitors but I need to draw a line and move on. As I said before, I don't actually think mapping was to blame but nor do I feel I just have to accept what someone tells me without trying to gain as much relevant information as possible. All I ever did was ask questions, not point fingers.
So, line drawn. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
It looks as though it's just the bottom end that needs rebuilding. The pistons also look like they should go again, so it's just a crank regrind and new rods. Right now I am trying to decide between shot peening and polishing the OE rods or going with Arrow? The builder said he would prefer Arrow.
I also want to replace the dash. Much as I like the look of analogue clocks I want something with a clearer display and audible warning so a Stack ST8100 or similar is probably best. If anyone has one, or knows somebody selling one, please let me know. Otherwise they're about £1100 new, or a months wages. They come with the loom and all the sensors though, so new may be the way to go.
1. Overheat when the alternator bush failed.
2. FSE adjustable FPR seems to be lacked consistency which will have effected mixture.
3. Subsequent FPR replacement led to excessively rich mixture and required a 2nd mapping session.
4. When driven hard (such as the sessions I did at Brands Hatch in August) the engine ran hotter than expected. The engine builder suggested a more efficient oil cooler be fitted in future.
5. Poor rod design. I'm no engineer but the gist of it was the poor oil way design, combined with the excessive heat, led to premature failure.
Now the builder says that he'd said he was unhappy to use the rods I had supplied but that fact never reached me. The only thing I was told was that he thought they were heavy, or else I simply wouldn't have used them. At the end of the day though, I supplied them, I didn't speak to the builder in person and maybe I should have just stuck with more established brands, such as Arrow etc? Bottom line, I just have to take responsibility and learn from the mistake.
I still feel that I should have been given the results of the initial mapping session, in the form of a dyno print out. I do not think simply being told ''it's making 200 and something'' is enough. Nor do I see the point of mapping a car with an FPR that isn't maintaining consistent pressure. I do wonder if the hot running was down to the rich mixture and an element of bore wash? I also don't like being accused of lying, potentially tampering with settings and passing information to competitors but I need to draw a line and move on. As I said before, I don't actually think mapping was to blame but nor do I feel I just have to accept what someone tells me without trying to gain as much relevant information as possible. All I ever did was ask questions, not point fingers.
So, line drawn. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________
It looks as though it's just the bottom end that needs rebuilding. The pistons also look like they should go again, so it's just a crank regrind and new rods. Right now I am trying to decide between shot peening and polishing the OE rods or going with Arrow? The builder said he would prefer Arrow.
I also want to replace the dash. Much as I like the look of analogue clocks I want something with a clearer display and audible warning so a Stack ST8100 or similar is probably best. If anyone has one, or knows somebody selling one, please let me know. Otherwise they're about £1100 new, or a months wages. They come with the loom and all the sensors though, so new may be the way to go.
e30m3Mark said:
I still feel that I should have been given the results of the initial mapping session, in the form of a dyno print out. I do not think simply being told ''it's making 200 and something'' is enough.
Absolutely, I have a full power and torque printout available to me from the last Dyno run engine I had built. I say 'available' as he was going to post to me along with the invoice but I wouldn't want such sensitive information falling into enemy hands so it's still waiting for me to collect.e30m3Mark said:
. Nor do I see the point of mapping a car with an FPR that isn't maintaining consistent pressure.
By coincidence the same engine above had an issue when mapping (couldn't flow adequate fuel even though in theory it was the correct rating) with the FPR supplied by me and the engine builder just used another from his shelf and told me I could buy it from set up and ready to go or I could source my own. For the sake of £20 over the price I could have got one from ebay I just bought it from him. Your guy could have done similar.e30m3Mark said:
I do wonder if the hot running was down to the rich mixture and an element of bore wash? .
I thought lean was likely to cause hot running not rich.Massive sympathy from me, I loved my M3 and wish I could still afford one now. Keep going, it will come good eventually
Thanks.
It's been a bitter pill to swallow but I'll have to learn from it and make sure I listen / communicate more clearly in future. Unfortunately the assumption that I was looking to lay sole blame has made the situation worse than it needed to be but life is way too short to hang on to these things.
It's been a bitter pill to swallow but I'll have to learn from it and make sure I listen / communicate more clearly in future. Unfortunately the assumption that I was looking to lay sole blame has made the situation worse than it needed to be but life is way too short to hang on to these things.
Bad news Mark, i think once all said and done you should name the mapper, be he at fault or not! It's also worrying if your bottom end let go after just having the engine rebuilt, were they ZRP rods? Plenty of the VW lot use them (and under a lot more stress!).
Shame you're not further north, i'd have been happy to lend a hand if you needed it! Im just hoping mine goes relatively smooth once together, i can sense sleepless nights!
Scott
Shame you're not further north, i'd have been happy to lend a hand if you needed it! Im just hoping mine goes relatively smooth once together, i can sense sleepless nights!
Scott
helix402 said:
However the failure isn’t necessarily due to his map.
This and I don't believe that either. I was only ever asking questions but that was immediately taken as my trying to lay blame, whereas I was looking for answers to stop this happening again. Unfortunately miscommunication, misunderstanding and assumptions meant other factors came into play and that helped no-one. The failure was down to a few things (listed earlier) and no one individual. Obviously it would be great to point the finger at someone, hold them to account and bill them for the rebuild but the balance of probability would make that person me. Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff