My brave pill: E92 BMW 335i with the infamous N54 engine
Discussion
So, still not really any further forward on the warranty claim....
The warranty company haven't said no, but they haven't said yes either. The response I have received from the service guy who I have been dealing with:
Thank you for your patience on this matter. I have had the response from the warranty team.
We have carried out the initial diagnosis for issue on the vehicle and this presented faults relevant to the solenoids and cam ledges. What the warranty team have said to me is that we would be required to strip the vehicle and examine the components and present images to the warranty team to clearly show as to why these components may have failed.
Having said this, they have made me aware that the cost of the time to strip the vehicle would fall to yourself as the customer. This would then allow to determine the full repair required and I can then get the pre-authorisation the get the repair carried out. If authorisation is obtained for the repair, then the cost of the strip will not fall to yourself and just the warranty excess will be left to pay for yourself.
If you carry out the strip and they do not authorise the repair for any reason then, it would be down to yourself as to whether or not you would like to pay for the full repair and have it carried out or just to have the vehicle built back up.
Cost of the vehicle strip would be £914.38 plus VAT.
I now need to decide if I want them to strip it to confirm the damage at the above cost and be at the risk of the warranty company rejecting the claim, so speak to a specialist and just foot the bill myself.
I have ask for a breakdown to the engine strip cost - it's all labour and the rate is £100 an hour plus VAT.
The warranty company haven't said no, but they haven't said yes either. The response I have received from the service guy who I have been dealing with:
Thank you for your patience on this matter. I have had the response from the warranty team.
We have carried out the initial diagnosis for issue on the vehicle and this presented faults relevant to the solenoids and cam ledges. What the warranty team have said to me is that we would be required to strip the vehicle and examine the components and present images to the warranty team to clearly show as to why these components may have failed.
Having said this, they have made me aware that the cost of the time to strip the vehicle would fall to yourself as the customer. This would then allow to determine the full repair required and I can then get the pre-authorisation the get the repair carried out. If authorisation is obtained for the repair, then the cost of the strip will not fall to yourself and just the warranty excess will be left to pay for yourself.
If you carry out the strip and they do not authorise the repair for any reason then, it would be down to yourself as to whether or not you would like to pay for the full repair and have it carried out or just to have the vehicle built back up.
Cost of the vehicle strip would be £914.38 plus VAT.
I now need to decide if I want them to strip it to confirm the damage at the above cost and be at the risk of the warranty company rejecting the claim, so speak to a specialist and just foot the bill myself.
I have ask for a breakdown to the engine strip cost - it's all labour and the rate is £100 an hour plus VAT.
That sounds pretty standard - it's the dealer making sure that someone (that isn't them) is going to be picking up the cost of the strip.
With £1,000 on the line, I'm sure they'll understand that you at least need some sense from the warranty company first before you can commit - again, pretty sure that's standard. Can't see any reasons the warranty company can't say yes or no to a potential 'most likely / worst case' scenario and then go from there.
Fingers crossed (again) for you. But.. this is what warranties are for so keep going!
With £1,000 on the line, I'm sure they'll understand that you at least need some sense from the warranty company first before you can commit - again, pretty sure that's standard. Can't see any reasons the warranty company can't say yes or no to a potential 'most likely / worst case' scenario and then go from there.
Fingers crossed (again) for you. But.. this is what warranties are for so keep going!
MDifficult said:
That sounds pretty standard - it's the dealer making sure that someone (that isn't them) is going to be picking up the cost of the strip.
With £1,000 on the line, I'm sure they'll understand that you at least need some sense from the warranty company first before you can commit - again, pretty sure that's standard. Can't see any reasons the warranty company can't say yes or no to a potential 'most likely / worst case' scenario and then go from there.
Fingers crossed (again) for you. But.. this is what warranties are for so keep going!
It’s just frustrating. With £1,000 on the line, I'm sure they'll understand that you at least need some sense from the warranty company first before you can commit - again, pretty sure that's standard. Can't see any reasons the warranty company can't say yes or no to a potential 'most likely / worst case' scenario and then go from there.
Fingers crossed (again) for you. But.. this is what warranties are for so keep going!
£1,000 just to strip it sounds like a lot, hence asking for a breakdown.
I’m tying to found out under what circumstances/ criteria the worn ledges are deemed to be a warranty issue and those which they are not.
It’s a known issued caused by the steel seals, so I’m going thru don’t have room to wriggle out of it.
Definitely going to speak to a few indy’s to get an idea how much it will cost away from BMW.
Court_S said:
It’s just frustrating.
£1,000 just to strip it sounds like a lot, hence asking for a breakdown.
I’m tying to found out under what circumstances/ criteria the worn ledges are deemed to be a warranty issue and those which they are not.
It’s a known issued caused by the steel seals, so I’m going thru don’t have room to wriggle out of it.
Definitely going to speak to a few indy’s to get an idea how much it will cost away from BMW.
Good luck - all that sounds eminently sensible preparation. £1,000 just to strip it sounds like a lot, hence asking for a breakdown.
I’m tying to found out under what circumstances/ criteria the worn ledges are deemed to be a warranty issue and those which they are not.
It’s a known issued caused by the steel seals, so I’m going thru don’t have room to wriggle out of it.
Definitely going to speak to a few indy’s to get an idea how much it will cost away from BMW.
MDMA . said:
Looks like they just want the 4.5 hours paying (each way/strip/build back up). It doesn’t sound too bad tbh. I suppose they are just covering their backs in case it gets knocked back. It’s the hourly rate that’s a killer. An independent would be half (we’re £46 p/h).
I’m trying to find out if that includes putting it back together as well, but they’re not great at providing breakdowns and further details. Plus the service team are a pain in the arse to get hold of. No response to my email that I sent this afternoon asking for further clarifications.
I think it needs doing sooner rather than later because limp mode happened today after 20 minutes we of driving whereas previously it’s been after 2/3 hours.
I changed the cam ledge seals from metal to teflon myself. It's not a huge job but you need a fair amount of tools and patience. No need to take the engine out or the head off. Just buy new manifold gasket, new manifold bolts and cam tray bolts.
I'm pretty certain all N54 engined 335i came from the factory with the metal seals. The teflon items were a revised part that came after the N54 stopped being put into the 335i (the LCI was N55). Other models may have benefited from this change but I know for certain that my 2009 335i had metal seals.
I would avoid PMP like the plague with a job like that. They aren't really the specialists they claim to be. I wouldn't trust them with anything more than service scope.
Tough situation to be in there. I think you have a good chance of a warranty claim if they open the engine up and find deep grooves in the shells but it's a big risk paying £1k upfront like that.
I'm pretty certain all N54 engined 335i came from the factory with the metal seals. The teflon items were a revised part that came after the N54 stopped being put into the 335i (the LCI was N55). Other models may have benefited from this change but I know for certain that my 2009 335i had metal seals.
I would avoid PMP like the plague with a job like that. They aren't really the specialists they claim to be. I wouldn't trust them with anything more than service scope.
Tough situation to be in there. I think you have a good chance of a warranty claim if they open the engine up and find deep grooves in the shells but it's a big risk paying £1k upfront like that.
Edited by car user on Monday 9th January 18:59
car user said:
I changed the cam ledge seals from metal to teflon myself. It's not a huge job but you need a fair amount of tools and patience. No need to take the engine out or the head off. Just buy new manifold gasket, new manifold bolts and cam tray bolts.
I'm pretty certain all N54 engined 335i came from the factory with the metal seals. The teflon items were a revised part that came after the N54 stopped being put into the 335i (the LCI was N55). Other models may have benefited from this change but I know for certain that my 2009 335i had metal seals.
I would avoid PMP like the plague with a job like that. They aren't really the specialists they claim to be. I wouldn't trust them with anything more than service scope.
Tough situation to be in there. I think you have a good chance of a warranty claim if they open the engine up and find deep grooves in the shells but it's a big risk paying £1k upfront like that.
Thanks.I'm pretty certain all N54 engined 335i came from the factory with the metal seals. The teflon items were a revised part that came after the N54 stopped being put into the 335i (the LCI was N55). Other models may have benefited from this change but I know for certain that my 2009 335i had metal seals.
I would avoid PMP like the plague with a job like that. They aren't really the specialists they claim to be. I wouldn't trust them with anything more than service scope.
Tough situation to be in there. I think you have a good chance of a warranty claim if they open the engine up and find deep grooves in the shells but it's a big risk paying £1k upfront like that.
Edited by car user on Monday 9th January 18:59
I’ve watched a fair few vids and reckon I could probably do it, but I’m not sure I want to invest in the tools required due to unlikely needing them again.
As far as I know, the teflon seals were introduced really late in the life of the E9x cars. I think one source mentioned 2011.
Interesting to hear your thoughts on PMP; I tried to make contact out of curiosity this afternoon and they didn’t answer the phone and instead wanted to communicate via WhatsApp. There is a local indy who is ex-Sytner so I’ll give them a buzz to get an idea of cost. Their rate is £70 inc VAT, so a decent saving on BMW if I decide not to chance my arm with the warranty.
pmorg4 said:
What is the cost of the parts? Wondering what your all-in cost will be if you decide to go down the indy route.
I guess your biggest risk is that you pay for the strip down and it turns out to be an incorrect diagnosis, which is probably unlikely but not impossible.
Something I want to explore in more detail; OE cam ledges on eBay are £477 search side, plus the rocker cover gasket at say £50 and maybe £100 for bolts.I guess your biggest risk is that you pay for the strip down and it turns out to be an incorrect diagnosis, which is probably unlikely but not impossible.
I’m going to have a crack at working out what parts are needed and email the parts team who usually give me a bit of money off the bust I buy.
Ouch, so even at an indy it's going to be an expensive job.
What's the normal lifespan of these? It's surprising that the car had generally been fine then all of a sudden they're worn to the point that you're getting the check engine light after a short drive. You'd expect if it's lasted over 70k before giving you issues there would be a gradual deterioration as the wear progresses.
What's the normal lifespan of these? It's surprising that the car had generally been fine then all of a sudden they're worn to the point that you're getting the check engine light after a short drive. You'd expect if it's lasted over 70k before giving you issues there would be a gradual deterioration as the wear progresses.
pmorg4 said:
Ouch, so even at an indy it's going to be an expensive job.
What's the normal lifespan of these? It's surprising that the car had generally been fine then all of a sudden they're worn to the point that you're getting the check engine light after a short drive. You'd expect if it's lasted over 70k before giving you issues there would be a gradual deterioration as the wear progresses.
Whichever way I look at it, if I’m footing the bill it’s not going to be a cheap day out.What's the normal lifespan of these? It's surprising that the car had generally been fine then all of a sudden they're worn to the point that you're getting the check engine light after a short drive. You'd expect if it's lasted over 70k before giving you issues there would be a gradual deterioration as the wear progresses.
The lifespan seems to vary massively; quite a few guys in the states had them changed under warranty at pretty low miles. My car is just shy of 88k and aside from ticking quite a lot on tick over has largely been fine, or at least I thought it was! Fuel consumption has been a bit crap but I’d largely put that down to the colder weather. Apparently this issue can reduce fuel consumption.
I’m trying to get BMW to be a bit more open about the figures being banded about so I can make an informed decision but it’s proving harder than I though.
Court_S said:
Thanks.
I’ve watched a fair few vids and reckon I could probably do it, but I’m not sure I want to invest in the tools required due to unlikely needing them again.
As far as I know, the teflon seals were introduced really late in the life of the E9x cars. I think one source mentioned 2011.
Interesting to hear your thoughts on PMP; I tried to make contact out of curiosity this afternoon and they didn’t answer the phone and instead wanted to communicate via WhatsApp. There is a local indy who is ex-Sytner so I’ll give them a buzz to get an idea of cost. Their rate is £70 inc VAT, so a decent saving on BMW if I decide not to chance my arm with the warranty.
I found PMP friendly enough but certainly rough and ready. I first went there for walnut blasting which they did cheaply and fast. After they did it I noticed a couple of bolts missing in the engine bay that they'd forgotten to replace. Nothing serious so when I needed the head replacing because of an ovalled injector bore due to missing bracket, I went back. I supplied all the parts and they did the labour. At that time I didn't feel confident enough to DIY that job. I’ve watched a fair few vids and reckon I could probably do it, but I’m not sure I want to invest in the tools required due to unlikely needing them again.
As far as I know, the teflon seals were introduced really late in the life of the E9x cars. I think one source mentioned 2011.
Interesting to hear your thoughts on PMP; I tried to make contact out of curiosity this afternoon and they didn’t answer the phone and instead wanted to communicate via WhatsApp. There is a local indy who is ex-Sytner so I’ll give them a buzz to get an idea of cost. Their rate is £70 inc VAT, so a decent saving on BMW if I decide not to chance my arm with the warranty.
They handed the car back and it was eating oil, backfiring on overrun, smoking massively at startup (i still cant figure out how this happened due to timing) and running rough. I took the car back and they said it was unrelated so rather than argue I just decided to take the car apart again and find out myself and use the opportunity to fit the teflon seals since I forgot to ask them to do that.
I took the valve cover off and used some eBay N54 timing tools to verify it and the timing turned out to be 3 teeth of the flywheel out. Upon inspecting the cams I could see they had just manhandled them with an adjustable spanner and eyeballed the timing.
After retiming everything was perfect again.
I contacted them after to point out their mistake and they just said they would investigate but nothing came of it. Lesson learned, just do it yourself unless you live near Birds or Darren Woods.
pmorg4 said:
Ouch, so even at an indy it's going to be an expensive job.
What's the normal lifespan of these? It's surprising that the car had generally been fine then all of a sudden they're worn to the point that you're getting the check engine light after a short drive. You'd expect if it's lasted over 70k before giving you issues there would be a gradual deterioration as the wear progresses.
I think the biggest factor is oil change intervals and possibly fuel dilution of the oil with leaking injectors. Some cars need them as low as 70k and others get 200k with no issues. It's quite a rare issue to be fair. What's the normal lifespan of these? It's surprising that the car had generally been fine then all of a sudden they're worn to the point that you're getting the check engine light after a short drive. You'd expect if it's lasted over 70k before giving you issues there would be a gradual deterioration as the wear progresses.
car user said:
I think the biggest factor is oil change intervals and possibly fuel dilution of the oil with leaking injectors. Some cars need them as low as 70k and others get 200k with no issues. It's quite a rare issue to be fair.
There are guys on the US forums who had the issue on really low mileage cars, like 25k low!car user said:
I found PMP friendly enough but certainly rough and ready. I first went there for walnut blasting which they did cheaply and fast. After they did it I noticed a couple of bolts missing in the engine bay that they'd forgotten to replace. Nothing serious so when I needed the head replacing because of an ovalled injector bore due to missing bracket, I went back. I supplied all the parts and they did the labour. At that time I didn't feel confident enough to DIY that job.
They handed the car back and it was eating oil, backfiring on overrun, smoking massively at startup (i still cant figure out how this happened due to timing) and running rough. I took the car back and they said it was unrelated so rather than argue I just decided to take the car apart again and find out myself and use the opportunity to fit the teflon seals since I forgot to ask them to do that.
I took the valve cover off and used some eBay N54 timing tools to verify it and the timing turned out to be 3 teeth of the flywheel out. Upon inspecting the cams I could see they had just manhandled them with an adjustable spanner and eyeballed the timing.
After retiming everything was perfect again.
I contacted them after to point out their mistake and they just said they would investigate but nothing came of it. Lesson learned, just do it yourself unless you live near Birds or Darren Woods.
Was the ovalled injector bore their fault after the walnut blast? If I hang onto the car, I was going to use then for a walnut blast and to sort my slight weep from the oil cooler whilst the manifold is off.They handed the car back and it was eating oil, backfiring on overrun, smoking massively at startup (i still cant figure out how this happened due to timing) and running rough. I took the car back and they said it was unrelated so rather than argue I just decided to take the car apart again and find out myself and use the opportunity to fit the teflon seals since I forgot to ask them to do that.
I took the valve cover off and used some eBay N54 timing tools to verify it and the timing turned out to be 3 teeth of the flywheel out. Upon inspecting the cams I could see they had just manhandled them with an adjustable spanner and eyeballed the timing.
After retiming everything was perfect again.
I contacted them after to point out their mistake and they just said they would investigate but nothing came of it. Lesson learned, just do it yourself unless you live near Birds or Darren Woods.
Court_S said:
Was the ovalled injector bore their fault after the walnut blast? If I hang onto the car, I was going to use then for a walnut blast and to sort my slight weep from the oil cooler whilst the manifold is off.
No, unrelated to their work.For walnut blasting they are probably fine, they just rush things. BMW dealers do offer good rates for that service too. Rybrook in Worcester did my Z4 for £250 about 6 years ago, I only went to PMP because I was living in the area for a while. Check dealers first as at least they will fix their mistakes.
Edited by car user on Monday 9th January 23:25
As an FYI on some of the costs mate. Got them from Joey Hazell at BMW Park Lane (joseph.hazell@bmwparklane.co.uk)
- 4x teflon cam seals @ £3.76 each, total minus some friendly discount = £13.54
- 30x cam tray bolts @ £1.00 each, total minus some friendly discount = £27.00
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