540HP NA 7L V12 3 seater
Discussion
Looks like an interesting / crazy project!
I went for a similar variant Honda V6 engine with a little less mass in my mk1 MX5. With some tuning parts I have reached a tested 300bhp in NA. Plenty enough for a 950kg road car.
However if you feel the need for insanity, you can add turbos. I know of two cars which are running up to 1300bhp with a standard bottom end. So I'm not really sure why you'd want the complexity of two, when there is so much potential with a single unit.
Either way, I wish you luck
I went for a similar variant Honda V6 engine with a little less mass in my mk1 MX5. With some tuning parts I have reached a tested 300bhp in NA. Plenty enough for a 950kg road car.
However if you feel the need for insanity, you can add turbos. I know of two cars which are running up to 1300bhp with a standard bottom end. So I'm not really sure why you'd want the complexity of two, when there is so much potential with a single unit.
Either way, I wish you luck
Kubevoid said:
With some tuning parts I have reached a tested 300bhp in NA.
Thanks for the support!I am impressed with your build, your engine bay looks factory! Could you detail what you did to coax the extra HP out? Might have to change the title of my thread to 600HP NA. Most interested to find out your ECU setup too, could not find a build thread here, do you have one? Cheers.
The whole point of 2 motors is to achieve 7L capacity NA responsiveness - with stock engine reliability. As you well know the J series is not a stressed design and can take a lot of extra load - or standard gives longevity. I am going for long term goals - hence not wanted to stress a single unit to high levels.
Roughed out the front crash structure tonight. It is thick wall aluminium tubing running forward of the steel frame and will position the concealed front aluminium bumper that will absorb some frontal impact energy if the worse should happen (certification requirement is for provision of a frontal absorbing structure - luckily no actual testing has to be conducted to test its effectiveness). The bumper structure will also rigidly mount the headlights and the radiators. This shot shows the right front wheel in full bump and lock and there is no fouling with bodywork - tick.
The upper control arm will mount onto a separate cnc spacer plate that bolts to the frame - this will allow easy configuration for front camber and caster experiments - intend to start with the baseline C6 settings which are -0.7 to -0.9 deg camber and 9 degrees caster. Scrub radius on the 265/35/18 front tire is 10mm with kingpin angle of 10.3 deg.
Headlights will be 90mm Hella LED projector units.
The upper control arm will mount onto a separate cnc spacer plate that bolts to the frame - this will allow easy configuration for front camber and caster experiments - intend to start with the baseline C6 settings which are -0.7 to -0.9 deg camber and 9 degrees caster. Scrub radius on the 265/35/18 front tire is 10mm with kingpin angle of 10.3 deg.
Headlights will be 90mm Hella LED projector units.
Edited by F1natic on Wednesday 25th September 12:43
What steering rack will you use. I talked to a friend about making a car central driving position and he really struggled to find anything off the shelf that would adapt well enough. I guess with enough linkages anything could work but looking at your picture it looks very simple or is this conceptual at this point?
I went for the smaller and lighter J32A model for the best power to weight. Mine was imported from Japan as it isn't available over here. There are various models with differing names and power levels. Mine was from a Type S. With the different sub frame and intake mods, it is around OEM weight. With the standard Honda intake it would have been about 4kg heavier than the cast iron four pot. Although mine is stripped out as well, so weighs less.
Upgrades were: AEM ecu, sensors, guages. 90mm K-Tuned throttle with Mustang adaptor, Holley intake plenum (adds power and loses lots of mass and gubbins) plus custom mounting, ported runners, big bore modified CompTech manifolds (really improves the flow), custom exhaust system.
Made 300bhp on a warm summer morning.
Adding a supercharger would easily double that. However I'd need a different gearbox first.
Upgrades were: AEM ecu, sensors, guages. 90mm K-Tuned throttle with Mustang adaptor, Holley intake plenum (adds power and loses lots of mass and gubbins) plus custom mounting, ported runners, big bore modified CompTech manifolds (really improves the flow), custom exhaust system.
Made 300bhp on a warm summer morning.
Adding a supercharger would easily double that. However I'd need a different gearbox first.
Edited by Kubevoid on Wednesday 25th September 16:15
On nights when I can’t sleep I day (night?) dream about building something bespoke with a central driving position.
For the link to the F1 I always go back to a BMW V10 as the power plant. For no more reason than I think it’s criminal it didn’t go into anything saying much less than a two ton car!
I guess still to long with a traditional gearbox op?
For the link to the F1 I always go back to a BMW V10 as the power plant. For no more reason than I think it’s criminal it didn’t go into anything saying much less than a two ton car!
I guess still to long with a traditional gearbox op?
Caddyshack said:
What steering rack will you use.
Modelled is a Porsche 911 unit that I was donated by a friend, it is too narrow but will be used for the suspension pickup test = a bunch of steel box section in the positions the cad says is good so that I can confirm the behaviour in bump and roll before signing off on the dimensions and committing them to the frame proper.My certifier had an Ariel atom in the workshop and the Titan rack is what he wants to see in there. They have full customized ordering so will get exactly what I need, which is good as steering is important right?
F1natic said:
Caddyshack said:
What steering rack will you use.
Modelled is a Porsche 911 unit that I was donated by a friend, it is too narrow but will be used for the suspension pickup test = a bunch of steel box section in the positions the cad says is good so that I can confirm the behaviour in bump and roll before signing off on the dimensions and committing them to the frame proper.My certifier had an Ariel atom in the workshop and the Titan rack is what he wants to see in there. They have full customized ordering so will get exactly what I need, which is good as steering is important right?
LaurasOtherHalf said:
On nights when I can’t sleep I day (night?) dream about building something bespoke with a central driving position.
For the link to the F1 I always go back to a BMW V10 as the power plant. For no more reason than I think it’s criminal it didn’t go into anything saying much less than a two ton car!
I guess still to long with a traditional gearbox op?
Yup, I too spend a lot of my brainpower pondering on this adventure.For the link to the F1 I always go back to a BMW V10 as the power plant. For no more reason than I think it’s criminal it didn’t go into anything saying much less than a two ton car!
I guess still to long with a traditional gearbox op?
I never contemplated a V10, have driven a 2015 ACR Viper and that thing is fantastic, however any longitudinal engine really pushes the trans out the back in a middy, and center of mass moves back with it, any conventional engine-diff-gearbox combo is going to suffer what the F1 design team so brilliantly avoided. The BMW v10 sounds great and would be a great choice of powerplant.
Same goes for V8's, I want NA cubic displacement so the contenders all suffer the same rearward bias effect.
The new corvette C8 transmission in a few years will be the ideal starting point for a mid engine homebuilder, however I love manual boxes too much to change course now.
F1natic said:
Modelled is a Porsche 911 unit that I was donated by a friend, it is too narrow but will be used for the suspension pickup test = a bunch of steel box section in the positions the cad says is good so that I can confirm the behaviour in bump and roll before signing off on the dimensions and committing them to the frame proper.
My certifier had an Ariel atom in the workshop and the Titan rack is what he wants to see in there. They have full customized ordering so will get exactly what I need, which is good as steering is important right?
The Titan rack is a very good product. Great guys to deal with. My certifier had an Ariel atom in the workshop and the Titan rack is what he wants to see in there. They have full customized ordering so will get exactly what I need, which is good as steering is important right?
LaurasOtherHalf said:
On nights when I can’t sleep I day (night?) dream about building something bespoke with a central driving position.
For the link to the F1 I always go back to a BMW V10 as the power plant. For no more reason than I think it’s criminal it didn’t go into anything saying much less than a two ton car!
I guess still to long with a traditional gearbox op?
Pretty sure Wiesmann used the V10... a lot lighter than the M5/6!For the link to the F1 I always go back to a BMW V10 as the power plant. For no more reason than I think it’s criminal it didn’t go into anything saying much less than a two ton car!
I guess still to long with a traditional gearbox op?
Been too busy with day job (end of financial year) so no decent progress to report, unlike Danie in SA!
I think his implementation of the engine/gearbox is brilliant, using an Audi Q7 transaxle - looks good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjhiMHMqFmI&t=... - he deserves some major likes and subscribes.
I think his implementation of the engine/gearbox is brilliant, using an Audi Q7 transaxle - looks good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjhiMHMqFmI&t=... - he deserves some major likes and subscribes.
F1natic said:
Been too busy with day job (end of financial year) so no decent progress to report, unlike Danie in SA!
I think his implementation of the engine/gearbox is brilliant, using an Audi Q7 transaxle - looks good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjhiMHMqFmI&t=... - he deserves some major likes and subscribes.
Bookmarked. Your totally insane. Hope it all goes well. I think his implementation of the engine/gearbox is brilliant, using an Audi Q7 transaxle - looks good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjhiMHMqFmI&t=... - he deserves some major likes and subscribes.
I really admire your enthusiasm and you've obviously got some skills but I can't help thinking you're over complicating matters with your powertrain. Your funds I assume aren't limitless so going with something more conventional will help. You have enough on your plate already. As you're trying to replicate another car, even small differences in weight distribution, and aerodynamic loads can make or break this. As said, the glasshouse and seals will be one of the most difficult problems to solve. That's why I would keep as much simplicity as you can.
This is such a cool thread that the mention of a Honda V6-engined MX-5 - which would make a pretty interesting story itself - is just a sideshow !
A couple of cars you might consider examining closely for inspiration / parts:
- the Cizeta Moroder V16 is the only other car I know of like this, two Lambo V8 engines mounted transversely driving a transaxle, very similar layout to what you're thinking. So it proves it can work, and the way they did it might be worth looking at.
- I think the Porsche 917 has a central power takeoff, being formed from two flat sixes
- McLaren closely based the F1 greenhouse on the Toyota Sera, which also has doors that open that way. So you could just possibly use parts of that car for your greenhouse? Could be a shortcut to a set of glass and doors, seals etc that fit together properly without leaks.
A couple of cars you might consider examining closely for inspiration / parts:
- the Cizeta Moroder V16 is the only other car I know of like this, two Lambo V8 engines mounted transversely driving a transaxle, very similar layout to what you're thinking. So it proves it can work, and the way they did it might be worth looking at.
- I think the Porsche 917 has a central power takeoff, being formed from two flat sixes
- McLaren closely based the F1 greenhouse on the Toyota Sera, which also has doors that open that way. So you could just possibly use parts of that car for your greenhouse? Could be a shortcut to a set of glass and doors, seals etc that fit together properly without leaks.
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