Aston martin V8 Vantage club sport type thing
Discussion
200Plus Club said:
Very interesting thread!
DuncanM said:
Brilliant update, you seem to be having fun, and the car is looking serious, love it.
Thanks guys, feels like its starting to "get there" always more to do but not unhappy with how its turning out.olv said:
Really enjoy the updates as always.
Very interesting on the LSD ramp angles, it explains why years ago in a previous 4.3 I owned, on one very treacherous journey to Wales in heavy snow the rear axle would really easily lock up at slow speeds when downshifting for roundabouts. I'm keen to switch the diff over as you've done, what's not to like about that!
Yea its odd as a standard setup, i think its meant to stabilise the car when people come off throttle but i think its more likely to make the car difficult to turn in and/ or introduce oversteer on overrun which is contrary to how you would expect this type of car to behave.Very interesting on the LSD ramp angles, it explains why years ago in a previous 4.3 I owned, on one very treacherous journey to Wales in heavy snow the rear axle would really easily lock up at slow speeds when downshifting for roundabouts. I'm keen to switch the diff over as you've done, what's not to like about that!
Its not a difficult thing to do, the hardest part is pushing the transaxle over far enough the get the diff out past the subframe, but you could always just drop the transaxle if you didnt want to do that, its just a few more bolts, the other driveshaft, cooler lines and lever cables, but we were pressed for time so did it in situe using a small scissor jack to keep the axle pressed over.
Jhonno said:
That diff find is ingenious! Love it.. Also, I had never seen how ramp angles are done before, so also interesting there!
Look forward to the other updates.
Its a pretty standard diff unit to be honest, if you open up any bmw e30, e36, e46 you will find the same arrangement, some slight differences in terms of how the plates are actuated (e46 uses a shear pump to eliminate the need for a troque difference between axles) but th same concepts and in the case of the older bmw differentials, which are the same as the old Ford atlas axles they look exactly the same., to the point where i think parts could be interchangeable Look forward to the other updates.
seefarr said:
Great updates, keep them coming! 
Ricky from REPerformance is rated highly on the R8 / Gallardo platform. He's done a few gearbox teardown / build videos that may be of use if you need any more info. I think the automated manual is the same unit as the manual.
https://www.youtube.com/@REPerformanceUK/search?qu...
Thank , i am actually a subscriber to that channel but hadnt really considered is as most of the stuff seems to be on the Audi Mechatronic, but its a fair shout. Ricky from REPerformance is rated highly on the R8 / Gallardo platform. He's done a few gearbox teardown / build videos that may be of use if you need any more info. I think the automated manual is the same unit as the manual.
https://www.youtube.com/@REPerformanceUK/search?qu...
I am going to see if i can locate a manual somewhere, they must be about as Graziano has had some shakups, be a bit surprised if a manual hasn't fallen out into the public domain somewhere along the line.
Sko77y said:
Nothing to add, except fantastic thread and really enjoying the updates.
Thanks dude, its always nice to know people actually get something out of my weird pursuits. Ok, so will try and smash out the last of the changes and get onto using the thing rather than taking it to bit constantly.
On my list of things to do, is to pull the rear axle out, there are a load of things that make sense to do at the same time and i done want to rush at that one so it will be on hold until i can free up my own ramp, and freeing up my own ramp is contingent on me building out a lean to to shelter the half built track car so its got a bit of a longer gestation period. The actual rear frame of the car is not too bad, bit brown but not in any way concerning, however the lower cross brace was absolutely rooted, so rooted I didn't even want to bother reconditioning it. so i got a really nice used one from aston martinbits and had it powder coated grey, seems that this is from a later car ass all the undertray fittings were m8 rather than M6 (so they are not all the same) howver this was no biggie as i just drilled the tray out to fit.
Like putting a dress on a pig really but the rest will get done at some point.
Next up was a big one for me. OEM instruments lie to you, they do not reflect the actual conditions in the engine until its far too late. to do anything about it. I had discussed this with a few people and the consensus seemed to be "we they dont blow up so its ok" that just doesn't work for me on any level. So I decided to fit a decent gauge to i could actually track pressure and temperature of the oil (i may change to just temp of oil and coolant but more on that later.
I had the genius ide of cutting holes into the dry sump thermostat welding in bosses and taking my readings from that. I knew that the pressure readings would be rubbish in terms of absolute pressures as the stat either vents to the tank or should force it through the cooler so the pressures would be low, however you just need to establish what the normal base line is and work off that (in theory) however its ideal to take temperature from and as its isolated from the engine its not subject to vibration etc so win win, in theory.
So the stat looks like this:
An elegant device, it is not, i am 99% sure its not much good and i fully intend to see wht i can do about it, but will get onto that later.
I bought a used one from ebay for a few quid, removed the original, drilled, tapped and welded to accommodate the temperature probe and pressure transducer.
Removing it is a bit of a faff as access is tricky, ended up bolting it to a bit bit of steel and then using a crows foot to get the fittings off. I later discovered an An20 pipe spanner is also a perfect fit.
Sensor and transducer fitted
Gauge fitted (yet another hole in the carbon!) I dont like the look of the gauge, its a great quality gauge that i nicked out of the track car, but the legibility is poor due to the dash angle getting loads of the light from the screen and it looks absolute toss, it will be getting changed, i think i may make something bespoke so its flush mounted but we will see.
|https://thumbsnap.com/1dtTtQAC[/url]
Does it work? Does it f
k. the temperature probe is perfect and accurately measures the temp of the oil as its leaving the sump, thats great the pressure gauge is useless. as the system doesn't put any oil to the cooler until about 100 degrees its literally just pumping out of a hose into a bucket, you get 0 to 1.5 psi registering lumpily. what's weirder is that the system doesnt show much over 100 degrees, this leads me to believe that the stat is not closing properly / fully so there is not complete flow to the cooler, that of the cooler has a much lower pressure drop than expected, which i think i struggle to believe.
Anyway, one out of two will on this occasion have to do, even if it does look a bit nasty.
I then wasted some time, effort and a little money buying a radiator and removing the current one from the car. The horrible OAT coolant always looks terrible in the header tank but i knew it was fresh as i changes it with the stat when i got the car, i dont know why they didnt use a transparent tank so you could actually visually check the condition, anyway, it was mint as i poured it all over my drive
With that removed (you can do it without removing the AC rad BTW) it was apparent that the original radiator was actually really robust and after a bit of a wash in excellent condition.
having had a really good look at both, i decided that on balance the original one was probably better made (a bit) than the replacement nissens unit, so decided that i was actually better off just giving it a really good clean, air lining it out and putting it back in. total waste of time.
I did find that the lower rad mounts had de bonded, so cleaned them up and bonded them back on with the correct 3m structural 2 part PU adhesive.
Being that was there I also looked at the belt, it was fked, fortunately i had found a ford USA replacement part a year or so back so had one on hand. I thought i was a clever tit having found the source part, however on removing the old one, it seems i was not the first to make this discovery 
Part number in the picture if it helps at all.
What i also found is that all the idlers were horrible, stiff, nasty. They are also all metal and heavy perfect for inertia. either way they all have replaceable bearings which i have now ordered but didn't have at the time, as such, i owned them up, washed them out with brake cleaner and put them in a boiling sonic bath for a few hours.
Once cleaned out i repacked them all with redline CV2 and the difference was quite dramatic, noise i hadn't really noticed was noticeable by its absence whole engine was quieter and felt smoother. so i suppose at least that part of the job was a winner.
I have ordered a full set of new roller bearings but i am comfortable that this lot will last at the very least another belt.
the final bits of prep (i can hear the relief) was to revisit my old friend the cable clamp, this did me over at spa last year, but had been fine until i took the car for a rip over the mountain during TT where it fked me again. Fortunately i was carrying enough speed that i was able to coast all the way to the Creg Ny Baa pub at the bottom of the circuit and call the Mrs out with a jack to put it back on.
Either way it was obvious it didnt work correctly.
So clamp MK2!
I know, an engineering marvel! anyway, this one seems to work properly. I have made it so it sits at 90 degrees to the cable action, as such it doesn't restrain the cable forward and aft just vertically.
This has now executed thousands of shifts without any issue, so i am cautiously optimistic.
After this i fitted my ebay fiberglass lip as seem previously, i was absolutely sure i would smash it off in a matter of hours but credit where its due, its still on and barring a few chips looks not bad IMO. This is all fitted in the original fixings, but i changed all the fastenings to chimney nuts and stainless bolts so its infinitely stronger.
See, still attached
Last bit was to print out a few of these out of ABS:
They stop the seatbelt gong going nuts when your wearing the harness's, guess how i found that out......[url]
On my list of things to do, is to pull the rear axle out, there are a load of things that make sense to do at the same time and i done want to rush at that one so it will be on hold until i can free up my own ramp, and freeing up my own ramp is contingent on me building out a lean to to shelter the half built track car so its got a bit of a longer gestation period. The actual rear frame of the car is not too bad, bit brown but not in any way concerning, however the lower cross brace was absolutely rooted, so rooted I didn't even want to bother reconditioning it. so i got a really nice used one from aston martinbits and had it powder coated grey, seems that this is from a later car ass all the undertray fittings were m8 rather than M6 (so they are not all the same) howver this was no biggie as i just drilled the tray out to fit.
Like putting a dress on a pig really but the rest will get done at some point.
Next up was a big one for me. OEM instruments lie to you, they do not reflect the actual conditions in the engine until its far too late. to do anything about it. I had discussed this with a few people and the consensus seemed to be "we they dont blow up so its ok" that just doesn't work for me on any level. So I decided to fit a decent gauge to i could actually track pressure and temperature of the oil (i may change to just temp of oil and coolant but more on that later.
I had the genius ide of cutting holes into the dry sump thermostat welding in bosses and taking my readings from that. I knew that the pressure readings would be rubbish in terms of absolute pressures as the stat either vents to the tank or should force it through the cooler so the pressures would be low, however you just need to establish what the normal base line is and work off that (in theory) however its ideal to take temperature from and as its isolated from the engine its not subject to vibration etc so win win, in theory.
So the stat looks like this:
An elegant device, it is not, i am 99% sure its not much good and i fully intend to see wht i can do about it, but will get onto that later.
I bought a used one from ebay for a few quid, removed the original, drilled, tapped and welded to accommodate the temperature probe and pressure transducer.
Removing it is a bit of a faff as access is tricky, ended up bolting it to a bit bit of steel and then using a crows foot to get the fittings off. I later discovered an An20 pipe spanner is also a perfect fit.
Sensor and transducer fitted
Gauge fitted (yet another hole in the carbon!) I dont like the look of the gauge, its a great quality gauge that i nicked out of the track car, but the legibility is poor due to the dash angle getting loads of the light from the screen and it looks absolute toss, it will be getting changed, i think i may make something bespoke so its flush mounted but we will see.
|https://thumbsnap.com/1dtTtQAC[/url]Does it work? Does it f
k. the temperature probe is perfect and accurately measures the temp of the oil as its leaving the sump, thats great the pressure gauge is useless. as the system doesn't put any oil to the cooler until about 100 degrees its literally just pumping out of a hose into a bucket, you get 0 to 1.5 psi registering lumpily. what's weirder is that the system doesnt show much over 100 degrees, this leads me to believe that the stat is not closing properly / fully so there is not complete flow to the cooler, that of the cooler has a much lower pressure drop than expected, which i think i struggle to believe. Anyway, one out of two will on this occasion have to do, even if it does look a bit nasty.
I then wasted some time, effort and a little money buying a radiator and removing the current one from the car. The horrible OAT coolant always looks terrible in the header tank but i knew it was fresh as i changes it with the stat when i got the car, i dont know why they didnt use a transparent tank so you could actually visually check the condition, anyway, it was mint as i poured it all over my drive
With that removed (you can do it without removing the AC rad BTW) it was apparent that the original radiator was actually really robust and after a bit of a wash in excellent condition.
having had a really good look at both, i decided that on balance the original one was probably better made (a bit) than the replacement nissens unit, so decided that i was actually better off just giving it a really good clean, air lining it out and putting it back in. total waste of time.
I did find that the lower rad mounts had de bonded, so cleaned them up and bonded them back on with the correct 3m structural 2 part PU adhesive.
Being that was there I also looked at the belt, it was f
ked, fortunately i had found a ford USA replacement part a year or so back so had one on hand. I thought i was a clever tit having found the source part, however on removing the old one, it seems i was not the first to make this discovery Part number in the picture if it helps at all.
What i also found is that all the idlers were horrible, stiff, nasty. They are also all metal and heavy perfect for inertia. either way they all have replaceable bearings which i have now ordered but didn't have at the time, as such, i owned them up, washed them out with brake cleaner and put them in a boiling sonic bath for a few hours.
Once cleaned out i repacked them all with redline CV2 and the difference was quite dramatic, noise i hadn't really noticed was noticeable by its absence whole engine was quieter and felt smoother. so i suppose at least that part of the job was a winner.
I have ordered a full set of new roller bearings but i am comfortable that this lot will last at the very least another belt.
the final bits of prep (i can hear the relief) was to revisit my old friend the cable clamp, this did me over at spa last year, but had been fine until i took the car for a rip over the mountain during TT where it f
ked me again. Fortunately i was carrying enough speed that i was able to coast all the way to the Creg Ny Baa pub at the bottom of the circuit and call the Mrs out with a jack to put it back on. Either way it was obvious it didnt work correctly.
So clamp MK2!
I know, an engineering marvel! anyway, this one seems to work properly. I have made it so it sits at 90 degrees to the cable action, as such it doesn't restrain the cable forward and aft just vertically.
This has now executed thousands of shifts without any issue, so i am cautiously optimistic.
After this i fitted my ebay fiberglass lip as seem previously, i was absolutely sure i would smash it off in a matter of hours but credit where its due, its still on and barring a few chips looks not bad IMO. This is all fitted in the original fixings, but i changed all the fastenings to chimney nuts and stainless bolts so its infinitely stronger.
See, still attached
Last bit was to print out a few of these out of ABS:
They stop the seatbelt gong going nuts when your wearing the harness's, guess how i found that out......[url]
Edited by IainWhy on Friday 18th August 17:20
Batch 7.5R said:
Absolutely LOVE this - exactly my kind of build, exactly what I’d have in mind for a Vantage if I ever got my hands on one (although without the knowledge you’ve gained!) and, whilst I’m acutely aware my car’s not an AM, kind of where I’ve aimed for with the wagon (although family reasons mean all the seats are standard and present).
Iain this has been a fantastic read, thank you, and I look forward to more. For some reason the pics of tha cage and seat above just sum the whole thing up for me - lovely!
Thanks mate, it is always nice to know others take something from it at whatever level tbh Iain this has been a fantastic read, thank you, and I look forward to more. For some reason the pics of tha cage and seat above just sum the whole thing up for me - lovely!
I totally get the family transport angle, I spend most of my time ferrying my two about in an old derv 5 series, i previously ran a c32 amg estate for many years so absolutely feel a fast estate
Ok, so i figure i should try and condense this down a touch, or at least get it into one update.
Many maintenance things were done, oil was changed (yet again) brake pads were changed (i believe pagid rs14 they are some "secret sauce" from a race program, (read reasonably priced as no one is 100% sure what compound they are) and on the front pagid endurance RST2 as they are less squeaky on the road than RSL1's fluid fully bled through with Castrol react (not React SRF, im tighter than cramp at £80 for a bottle is taking the piss imo). Finally and not just trying to be subversive i have found the motul gear oil to be a bit on the thick side as its creating some notchy changes when cold and to honest you can still detect it when hot, so i put half a liter of dex 6 ATF in the box, this has improved the shift a fair bit. I have no doubt that some will not like this idea, but its not uncommon to do it in other marques and its something i do on the m3 and have done for many years.
with this and other things done, i headed off down to Ollies so we could convene and do some bolt checks on the cars. what this meant in reality was that i could work on ollies e30 for a bit and he would vaguely help me was mine as i am the world least motivated car cleaner.
As we had a bit of time i made use of ollies super flas weighing scales. THis was a big thing for me, for a number of reasons, firstly i really wanted to know what the ca actually weighed, and secondly i had set the suspension heights by eye and i wanted to know how well balanced it was and the cross weights.
So (drumroll please) a standard vantage is apparently kerb weighted at 1630 kgs, i am not 100% if that's fully fuelled or not.
So my car, with 40 ish ltrs of fuel on board, we are being lazy and saying 40kgs of fuel, some crap in the glovebox and fully wet (all fluids) loads of changes to reduce weight but then also adding bigger discs and a half cage....
so were saying 1510 without driver or fuel load and the cross weights were fully respectable. Happy with that!, so much more weight could be lost, but its really hard not to just compromise the car horribly for more regular use.
I chucked a few weight plates in the car and set the balance to favour the passenger side to further compensate for the driver weight,this was to be honest a bt half arsed, it needs a quiet evening with some tea and no time pressures to get right, but it was ok.
Also: i realised i posted the wrong setup sheet for the car i past posts. this is my made up geometry on the car at present:
So geo above and no fuel weight approx 1510kg.
With tat done i started to have a bit of a worry about my front tyres, they were fine, but clearly were wearing a bit on the edge, i was concerned that 3 days would leave me naked round the rim. So i had a bit of a look at the stock of old NS2R's that we have been using on the Z4 racer, and fortunately there were a couple that were essentially new, new being a bit debateable as they were from 2016, but on the other hand, they had more tread, so "new"
I had those popped onto the rims and we were all set for departure, as per usual, early as st why this sort of thing always involved a 4am start i dont know, but it does.
First stop, Spa, i had booked a fairly st hotel in Malmedy, it wasn't intended to be crap, but it felt a bit like an old brothel and the code to release the kew was incorrect, due to having to wait about to sort the key out we went out for a few drinks, i am not a big drinker and this essentially resulted in me waking up in the middle of the night feeling hot and unwell. Morning saw a handful of anadin for breakfast, this is not how i like to start the day.
The morning was wet, wet enough that you know your going to be slow, on the plus side being that both ollie and I were in the least powerful cars on the track, that was probably for the best.
Of course armed with my sick new aero and 7 year old part worn track tyres the rain presented no issue, in no way at all was i slithering around each and every corner. that said we were not holding anyone up so rain proved as is often the case to be the great leveller, not just that all the porsche owners were all sat about comparing hats and holding hands.
Not long into the day., ollie had to get recovered off track, which made a change from me having to be recovered. Transpired the rotor arm had exploded going down Kemel the used one in the box was not the same as the one what had fallen to bits, fortunately having borrowed a drill we were able to get it sorted and back on track.
With the track drying rapidly times started to improve and the amount of time you were getting your arse handed to you by a radical / some stupid jet powered skateboard increased.(When there are lots of these on a trackday running with saloons its not a brilliant combination. Appreciate it takes all comers but they are under your door line and its just not idea).
The Aston was great, the diff really added to the ability to control the car on throttle and the brakes continued to be superb. Ideally it would have a bit more lick out of the slower corners but thats really a final drive ratio issue where the engine could do with being more on the boil more often. THe gear lever stayed attached which was also a plus. According to my garmin the car did 56 laps which at 3 minutes a lap and excluding in and out laps is a fair old run time.
Oil temperatures as the day dried and got hotter also increased, operating temperature of the oil leaving the block was peaking at 132 under full load but no higher. This was about the top end of my comfort level. its within the spec of a synthetic 10-60 but i found myself short shifting the car a little just to mitigate the heat and not flog the absolute living st out of it.
Best time was a slightly irritating 3.00.99 i would have liked to get under 3mins but it just didn't happen, was it the slightly stty tyres or the slightly stty driver, (probably the latter) but its not too far off.
Lap here now with added data:
That was one of my last last of the day, and with time called on the track wee packed the cap into the cars and made the short hop to Hotel Du Pits In Zolder.
I love zolder, i love the way the day always feels like there are few rules, i love the circuit and the hotel and food is great.
So on with it, we had some small good fortune in that an e36 had expired at spa the previous day and the guy had kindly said we could use the garage space he had booked at Zolder, so we chucked all the tools out of the cars, lidded up and got going. The morning was reasonably cool but all the signs pointed to a really hot day on the way.
The morning session where the track was clean, not too busy and not too hot gave me my best time, i suspect that my concentration was probably also at its peak. a 1.56 is i am pretty sure my best time round Zolder in any car i have used there and was close to ollies 1.55 that he has managed in the m3 race car, i was to be frank delighted with it. particularly as i knew there was more in it ass there had been an m5 in the way during the lap that had cost some time, annoyingly i wasn't able to find it, oil on track, increased traffic (annoying turbo skateboards) and quite a few accidents and i suspect my tyres now being well fked topped off with a lack of talent saw my optimals staying in the 1.55's but my actuals only troubling the 1.58's Still, i was having fun.
The same could not be said for my fellow driver. after a few laps the e30 started emitting a lot of steam. It was recovered off circuit (again
its only funny because its usually me ) We will pulled the rad out but it all looked in order so refilled it with water and went to start it, at this point the car failed to turn over... Having pulled the plugs out the engine cranked freely. but also painted the side of a very posh trailer and accomodation center in red hot blue coolant (they really loved that) so sadly the e30 had eaten its head gasket. i vaguely considered suggesting we try to change it in the carpark but Ollie was unmoved by the idea, fortunately he was able to arrange a pickup within two hours of the failure, and the car was back at his house before we were.
Ollie spent the rest of the day being slightly salty and passengering with me.
Best lap here:
Amazingly zolder appeared to be having a noisy day so i was able to run for the latter part of the day with the flaps open, this resulted in people putting their fingers in their ears every time i went down the pit straight which was amusing.
The day again drew to a close, but were were now down to one very heavily loaded car. We had been booked to drive up to Meppen circuit in lower saxony, but being down to one vehicle it didn't feel like a trip worth making, so we re planned to go to the ring for a bit, however, it was closed the the public, so in a first ever for our eurotrips, we called it a draw and came back a few days early. As always, i have a list of things to get cracking on, but there is only so much you can write in one post.....
Many maintenance things were done, oil was changed (yet again) brake pads were changed (i believe pagid rs14 they are some "secret sauce" from a race program, (read reasonably priced as no one is 100% sure what compound they are) and on the front pagid endurance RST2 as they are less squeaky on the road than RSL1's fluid fully bled through with Castrol react (not React SRF, im tighter than cramp at £80 for a bottle is taking the piss imo). Finally and not just trying to be subversive i have found the motul gear oil to be a bit on the thick side as its creating some notchy changes when cold and to honest you can still detect it when hot, so i put half a liter of dex 6 ATF in the box, this has improved the shift a fair bit. I have no doubt that some will not like this idea, but its not uncommon to do it in other marques and its something i do on the m3 and have done for many years.
with this and other things done, i headed off down to Ollies so we could convene and do some bolt checks on the cars. what this meant in reality was that i could work on ollies e30 for a bit and he would vaguely help me was mine as i am the world least motivated car cleaner.
As we had a bit of time i made use of ollies super flas weighing scales. THis was a big thing for me, for a number of reasons, firstly i really wanted to know what the ca actually weighed, and secondly i had set the suspension heights by eye and i wanted to know how well balanced it was and the cross weights.
So (drumroll please) a standard vantage is apparently kerb weighted at 1630 kgs, i am not 100% if that's fully fuelled or not.
So my car, with 40 ish ltrs of fuel on board, we are being lazy and saying 40kgs of fuel, some crap in the glovebox and fully wet (all fluids) loads of changes to reduce weight but then also adding bigger discs and a half cage....
so were saying 1510 without driver or fuel load and the cross weights were fully respectable. Happy with that!, so much more weight could be lost, but its really hard not to just compromise the car horribly for more regular use.
I chucked a few weight plates in the car and set the balance to favour the passenger side to further compensate for the driver weight,this was to be honest a bt half arsed, it needs a quiet evening with some tea and no time pressures to get right, but it was ok.
Also: i realised i posted the wrong setup sheet for the car i past posts. this is my made up geometry on the car at present:
So geo above and no fuel weight approx 1510kg.
With tat done i started to have a bit of a worry about my front tyres, they were fine, but clearly were wearing a bit on the edge, i was concerned that 3 days would leave me naked round the rim. So i had a bit of a look at the stock of old NS2R's that we have been using on the Z4 racer, and fortunately there were a couple that were essentially new, new being a bit debateable as they were from 2016, but on the other hand, they had more tread, so "new"
I had those popped onto the rims and we were all set for departure, as per usual, early as s
t why this sort of thing always involved a 4am start i dont know, but it does.First stop, Spa, i had booked a fairly s
t hotel in Malmedy, it wasn't intended to be crap, but it felt a bit like an old brothel and the code to release the kew was incorrect, due to having to wait about to sort the key out we went out for a few drinks, i am not a big drinker and this essentially resulted in me waking up in the middle of the night feeling hot and unwell. Morning saw a handful of anadin for breakfast, this is not how i like to start the day.The morning was wet, wet enough that you know your going to be slow, on the plus side being that both ollie and I were in the least powerful cars on the track, that was probably for the best.
Of course armed with my sick new aero and 7 year old part worn track tyres the rain presented no issue, in no way at all was i slithering around each and every corner. that said we were not holding anyone up so rain proved as is often the case to be the great leveller, not just that all the porsche owners were all sat about comparing hats and holding hands.
Not long into the day., ollie had to get recovered off track, which made a change from me having to be recovered. Transpired the rotor arm had exploded going down Kemel the used one in the box was not the same as the one what had fallen to bits, fortunately having borrowed a drill we were able to get it sorted and back on track.
With the track drying rapidly times started to improve and the amount of time you were getting your arse handed to you by a radical / some stupid jet powered skateboard increased.(When there are lots of these on a trackday running with saloons its not a brilliant combination. Appreciate it takes all comers but they are under your door line and its just not idea).
The Aston was great, the diff really added to the ability to control the car on throttle and the brakes continued to be superb. Ideally it would have a bit more lick out of the slower corners but thats really a final drive ratio issue where the engine could do with being more on the boil more often. THe gear lever stayed attached which was also a plus. According to my garmin the car did 56 laps which at 3 minutes a lap and excluding in and out laps is a fair old run time.
Oil temperatures as the day dried and got hotter also increased, operating temperature of the oil leaving the block was peaking at 132 under full load but no higher. This was about the top end of my comfort level. its within the spec of a synthetic 10-60 but i found myself short shifting the car a little just to mitigate the heat and not flog the absolute living s
t out of it. Best time was a slightly irritating 3.00.99 i would have liked to get under 3mins but it just didn't happen, was it the slightly s
tty tyres or the slightly stty driver, (probably the latter) but its not too far off.Lap here now with added data:
That was one of my last last of the day, and with time called on the track wee packed the cap into the cars and made the short hop to Hotel Du Pits In Zolder.
I love zolder, i love the way the day always feels like there are few rules, i love the circuit and the hotel and food is great.
So on with it, we had some small good fortune in that an e36 had expired at spa the previous day and the guy had kindly said we could use the garage space he had booked at Zolder, so we chucked all the tools out of the cars, lidded up and got going. The morning was reasonably cool but all the signs pointed to a really hot day on the way.
The morning session where the track was clean, not too busy and not too hot gave me my best time, i suspect that my concentration was probably also at its peak. a 1.56 is i am pretty sure my best time round Zolder in any car i have used there and was close to ollies 1.55 that he has managed in the m3 race car, i was to be frank delighted with it. particularly as i knew there was more in it ass there had been an m5 in the way during the lap that had cost some time, annoyingly i wasn't able to find it, oil on track, increased traffic (annoying turbo skateboards) and quite a few accidents and i suspect my tyres now being well f
ked topped off with a lack of talent saw my optimals staying in the 1.55's but my actuals only troubling the 1.58's Still, i was having fun.The same could not be said for my fellow driver. after a few laps the e30 started emitting a lot of steam. It was recovered off circuit (again
its only funny because its usually me ) We will pulled the rad out but it all looked in order so refilled it with water and went to start it, at this point the car failed to turn over... Having pulled the plugs out the engine cranked freely. but also painted the side of a very posh trailer and accomodation center in red hot blue coolant (they really loved that) so sadly the e30 had eaten its head gasket. i vaguely considered suggesting we try to change it in the carpark but Ollie was unmoved by the idea, fortunately he was able to arrange a pickup within two hours of the failure, and the car was back at his house before we were. Ollie spent the rest of the day being slightly salty and passengering with me.
Best lap here:
Amazingly zolder appeared to be having a noisy day so i was able to run for the latter part of the day with the flaps open, this resulted in people putting their fingers in their ears every time i went down the pit straight which was amusing.
The day again drew to a close, but were were now down to one very heavily loaded car. We had been booked to drive up to Meppen circuit in lower saxony, but being down to one vehicle it didn't feel like a trip worth making, so we re planned to go to the ring for a bit, however, it was closed the the public, so in a first ever for our eurotrips, we called it a draw and came back a few days early. As always, i have a list of things to get cracking on, but there is only so much you can write in one post.....
4Q said:
Another great write up. Thanks
B'stard Child said:
Enjoyed that a lot - Aston looks great from inside and outside
DuncanM said:
Mission accomplished then! You've built a very cool car, beautiful and fast.
Thanks guys, as always there is more to do post trip. Looking at my times vs other scumbag weirdo's on the garmin leaderboard i come in at 24th for this year for Spa
and 16th for the year at Zolder
I would like to improve on both of those tbh, clearly that just for oddballs with a Catalyst and who have lapped this year, but its nice to have some form of yardstick.
The car was not entirely faultless on the trip, though all things considered it was only minor stuff.
1. When really pressing on the gearbox started telling me that it was in reverse, this initially occurred going into Raidillon at a ton, so did give me a "code brown" moment, however on the basis that the engine was still in the car, i wasn't dead and the we were still accelerating i had to conclude that the dashboard was misguided. THis issue reoccurred again during the day and then again at zolder. in all cases once the car had cooled the issue went away. this leads me to believe that the gearbox is getting very hot and that the reverse light switch is taking a dump at a certain temperature. THe gearbox actually does have a fully pumped setrab oil cooler, however, paradoxically i think that the oil cooler is actually creating the issue.
Why would i make such a ridiculous statement and why is this such a drama. Its a drama firstly because i think the gearbox is essentially overheating, secondly the reverse lights come on and stay on when this occurs. now granted its an effective counter measure to people passing you but not exactly a good look. Why do i think the cooler is the issue? Well, during the second half of the day at zolder i ran with the exhaust bypass open. this means the gas does not pass through the rear silencer. as such the rear silencer does not get hot, or not as hot. the airflow for the transaxle cooler passes over the backbox and is collecting the heat, or becoming heat saturated (depending on how you want to looks at it) this is then either heating or failing to cool the gearbox. short version, i need to look at heat shielding and ducting the the gearbox cooler.
2. The engine oil is getting a bit warmer than i would ideally like, its not bad bad, but i would be much happier at 120 ish degrees max. I think this is largely an issue with the thermostat. its some ford junk that looks to have come out of a pickup truck, sophisticated, it aint. it will either get modified, or potentially i will design a new one working on the principal of pressure differential like an m3 one which will be much more efficient and flow better.
3. I used some what seemed to be perfectly good wiring plugs when i wired the stereo system in, they came loose shortly after i did it, i took it all apart, tightened them up and checked them all. no sooner than we had set off my stereo started turning off over bumps, the plugs are crap, i need to replace them with good ones.
4. the tyres are a limiting factor, or at least i think they are. Before the next trip i need to put my hand in my pocket and put some better ones on so that i am not constantly making that excuse.
5. someone, almost certainly some "superlight" dropped a ton of oil round the fastest corners at zolder right on the racing line (round (Sterrenwachtbocht and Kanaalbocht) it had been dusted and i knew it was there, it had been there for some hours, it just meant you had to tu tighter than you would like. however because i am an idiot, for some reason i just forgot about this for one lap, this meant i was going to quick and in the wrong place to tighten my line and as a result i had a pretty healthy slide, the rear wheel dropped into the gravel and its absolutely pebbledashed the the sill and the rear quarter. the quarter will need painting, the sill will be going in the bin anyway as i have some replacements. its a small thing , but irritating.
the job list never really seems to end........
SturdyHSV said:
Just chiming in to say love the thread, really like the car (except the red bits 
) and really like the fact you're using it and modifying it.
Couple of questions as you at least do a good impression of knowing what you're on about, is the 10W60 based on the expectation that you're going to see high oil temps, so you want the oil to survive and there still be decent pressure at 130*? As I assume the engine probably has bearing clearances and such expecting something thinner like a 10w30 or something? Just curious really for my own education
Also, with the higher cornering loads from finally getting some decent tyres etc., are you concerned about oil starvation in some of the long high G corners? Or is the car dry sumped and I've missed that? I don't remember if they came dry sumped from the factory.
Thanks for taking the time to do the updates, very much enjoy your tone / attitude as well
Thanks dude, the red bits are a bit marmite, they literally are just a copy of the standard GT4 livery but not to everyone's taste, i dont really like boring coloured cars so they are in some ways a stopgap between now and if i ever decide to get it wrapped or even painted. ) and really like the fact you're using it and modifying it.Couple of questions as you at least do a good impression of knowing what you're on about, is the 10W60 based on the expectation that you're going to see high oil temps, so you want the oil to survive and there still be decent pressure at 130*? As I assume the engine probably has bearing clearances and such expecting something thinner like a 10w30 or something? Just curious really for my own education
Also, with the higher cornering loads from finally getting some decent tyres etc., are you concerned about oil starvation in some of the long high G corners? Or is the car dry sumped and I've missed that? I don't remember if they came dry sumped from the factory.
Thanks for taking the time to do the updates, very much enjoy your tone / attitude as well
Oil wise, as you know this is one of those never ending topics, but in this case is less adventurous than you would think. I run 10-60 in all the track cars i have, largely because they are all bmw's and use step less vanos, the 10-60 keeps the bearings in them as it has a good shear film at high pressure and high load and because they are mostly old tat (90's m3's) if the oil gets too thin you find that the VVT essentially just doesn't work properly as its driven by a 100 bar oil pump into actuators, when the oil thins out not only do the rods tend to bay window the block but the vanos wont make the right pressure to actuate the cam.
On the aston, factory spec is 10-60, which if for me at least convenient, as i have a barrel of it, the cynic in me suspects that they run this also to keep the rods on the inside, for most duties i would think a 40 would be adequate and give better power and efficiency, but who can be bothered switching oil grades by use? Despite it probably being a good idea.
As to cornering loads, for once, no, the car is fully drysumped from factory (its a very confused car) its onre of the reasons it takes 10ltrs oil oil to do a change! that said on the 3.0 m3 i just use a later evo twin pickup sump and use a later evo head with bigger return drains and have not seen any issues. On the z4 we dont even do that, just a baffle and an oil pump tensioner and that thing has had some real abuse including running on slicks
SturdyHSV said:
Appreciate the thorough response, cheers. As you say, interesting the factory spec is 10w60, agreed I'd have expected something lighter in the name of efficiency but I suppose they figured what you'd save on fuel you'd spend on rods 
Will look forward to seeing what you do with the oil cooler ducting etc. :thumbsup:
Yea, i am being a bit less revealing than perhaps i should in the name of not getting too nerdy here, not to mention i cant substantiate all of my comments, but whatever. Will look forward to seeing what you do with the oil cooler ducting etc. :thumbsup:
These engines were built under ford ownership but i think cosworth did most of the work. the original engine design (and the first 1000 cars) came with arrow rods, likely because of cost (or production capacity but i doubt it) these were changed to sintered rods, I dont think there is anything actually wrong with sintered rods but they also came with a move to tangless and rather basic bearings. As i understand it (and believe) the engine had already failed fords torture tests (running the thing flat out from cold for 100,000 miles or something.
As a result they dropped the rpm limit down a bit to keep the longevity of the engine. this is substantiated by a few things, big power gainz when you rev it harder and the fact that the inlet runner lengths are shorter than optimum for the stock rpm (so i believe) frankly the entire inlet is pretty far from what i would regard as optimal but thats another story, and maybe another plan..
Either way the engine was slightly hamstrung in the RPM game to keep the inside bits on the inside. Now there are a range of ways to look at that, the first being that no other "exotic" would put the engine through that kind of testing, and that actually if you have a functioning brain you don't cane the life out of the car before its ready, and you run to a more aggressive maintenance schedule to keep things in good order. so you can afford to run the car harder, however seeing temperatures in the 130's is a bit more than i would like so i am using the car a bit more conservatively than i would otherwise do. there is a fair bit more HP in the upper end that i am only using occasionally (current redline is 7800rpm but i am shifting is at 7 ish) on the basis that your going nowhere fast if the insides are all over the road.
The 4.7's double down on the problem using a crappier bearing, with a longer rod, hence why they seem to pop more frequently.
Jhonno said:
I was going to make a similar comment to Sturdy.. Maybe thinner oil might help temps! 5W-50 maybe, less pressure = less heat.
Great write up again though. Enjoyable read.
Glad your enjoying it dude I generally agree on the oil, though i would say its less pressure and more flow in that the better flow rate would mean higher velocity through the cooler so more heat exchanged, the issue i have is that at these temperatures 60 really does still have a good strong shear film to protect a slightly vulnerable bottom end. My concern at the moment is that the stock stat is simply not closing properly and as such the flow through the cooler is never that high, if i can get some confidence that it would actually use the flow i would be more tempted to give say a 10-50 a shot and see how it looked, that said 10-60 doesnt seem too strange to me as its factory fill on bot the e46 and e90 M3's for pretty much the same reasons! Great write up again though. Enjoyable read.
- Edit*
Sorry for the long and super nerdy post!
SturdyHSV said:
No no, keep going, I'm almost there...
Love the nerdy st, so appreciate the dip in to the dark side, really interesting to hear about the early engines etc., I had no idea.
My experience lies with LS engines so you're talking 5W30 typically there, hence the 10W60 sounding like treacle to me, and also hence asking about the sustained cornering G, as without a sump baffle the LS's can suffer from oil starvation.
Also, on the subject of runner length, here's some numbers for a 6.2 LS with a cam in it, and some pictures.
Some remarkable losses there just with the runner length, all within the same manifold! I have a ported FAST102 with the long runners on my 402 LS, and it carries the power flat from 6500 - 7000 rpm, so it'd be a very different build for me for even the medium length runners to be worthwhile!
Mega Love the nerdy s
t, so appreciate the dip in to the dark side, really interesting to hear about the early engines etc., I had no idea.My experience lies with LS engines so you're talking 5W30 typically there, hence the 10W60 sounding like treacle to me, and also hence asking about the sustained cornering G, as without a sump baffle the LS's can suffer from oil starvation.
Also, on the subject of runner length, here's some numbers for a 6.2 LS with a cam in it, and some pictures.
Some remarkable losses there just with the runner length, all within the same manifold! I have a ported FAST102 with the long runners on my 402 LS, and it carries the power flat from 6500 - 7000 rpm, so it'd be a very different build for me for even the medium length runners to be worthwhile!
Edited by SturdyHSV on Friday 25th August 17:32
I like you spent an age messing about with the intake tract on the m3, i ended up building my own airbox using kids party balloon and a load of carbon mixed with non linear bell mouthed intakes, i ended up picking up nearly 10 hp just from braking the airbox internally so that it didn't pulse with the engine!
The inlet on the 4.3 is a massive chuck of cast allot so its on the list, its too heavy, too small, too conductive and clearly NFG. The sacked it all off on specials like the gt8 so you know your on the right track.....
DuncanM said:
Love the long posts, and no such thing as too nerdy on here
Lol, you say that but i can get really weird if the boundaries are not properly managed B'stard Child said:
^ WHS makes the "Readers Cars" area of the PH forum very interesting and very informative - always nice to read other people opinions and experiences
On the 10/60W - ran Millers Competition for a lot of miles in my "unsuitable track car" 1985 Opel Monza GSE with a much later but still a boat anchor lump "3.0 24V Senator" engine tuned to 245 bhp with triple sidedrafts - it rev'd to 8000 rpm as result of cam work and a stand alone swing dizzy but the oil cooler circuit and control was rubbish (waxstat type operation) and until I sorted that oil temps were right on the edge of what Millers claimed was acceptable but it stayed together. In the end I put a blank where the wax stat used to be and ran full flow to the cooler and dropped the oil temps to around 120-130 deg C on track under hard use - downside was it took a fair old while to warm up the oil up to 100 deg from cold - you just had to accept that.
The old boat anchor (just before my "ooops moment" that put it painted side down in the gravel trap)
Engine shot
I also run 10/60W in the Lotus - cos that's got an old school boat anchor engine stroked to 3.6 with a couple of turbos nailed on the side and it doesn't like thin oil
Love an unsuitable track car! Thicker is generally a safe option provided that your not getting cavitation, yes you lose some efficiency and yes there is a trade of between handling the temperature and creating it in the first place but i have not had any issues running 60 on any of the race cars, and when the bearings have come out they have looked really solid. Do you have a thread for the lotus?On the 10/60W - ran Millers Competition for a lot of miles in my "unsuitable track car" 1985 Opel Monza GSE with a much later but still a boat anchor lump "3.0 24V Senator" engine tuned to 245 bhp with triple sidedrafts - it rev'd to 8000 rpm as result of cam work and a stand alone swing dizzy but the oil cooler circuit and control was rubbish (waxstat type operation) and until I sorted that oil temps were right on the edge of what Millers claimed was acceptable but it stayed together. In the end I put a blank where the wax stat used to be and ran full flow to the cooler and dropped the oil temps to around 120-130 deg C on track under hard use - downside was it took a fair old while to warm up the oil up to 100 deg from cold - you just had to accept that.
The old boat anchor (just before my "ooops moment" that put it painted side down in the gravel trap)
Engine shot
I also run 10/60W in the Lotus - cos that's got an old school boat anchor engine stroked to 3.6 with a couple of turbos nailed on the side and it doesn't like thin oil
DuncanM said:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b5-platform-di...
Rightly or wrongly, this link convinced me to run a thinner oil in my Cerbera, 5w30. Caveat being I don't track it.
I think att that is sound, what it doesnt allow for though the the shear film strength and the realities of shearing down on the oil. the futher apart the numbers the more stretch the base stock has on it and the more likely it will shear down under high load and heat. in direct terms after the first day at spa i was probably using a 10w-54, at the end of zolder 10w-52, as that number drops the absolute resistance to shear under load drops and the more likely you are to pick up a bearing on a crank under high pressure and temperature, this is in effect exactly why BMW M, Ferarri and a number of others use a 60, its a relatively simplle way of giving the bottom end its best chance. Rightly or wrongly, this link convinced me to run a thinner oil in my Cerbera, 5w30. Caveat being I don't track it.
All that said unless your beating the life out of it or in a very hot climate i would use a 40 and enjoy the reduced cost,increased power and efficiency and not lose a wink of sleep. (easy to say when i dont have to pay the bill
)B'stard Child said:
Nothing like as detailed as your thread - I didn't build it, Lotus did, I haven't modified it (it's high maintenance enough already) and I have a bit of a love hate relationship with it.
It's got a few mentions over the years and PH'rs have spotted it in other Readers Cars threads that I have done - fundamentally it story to tell - one that I'm happy to share but it got labeled a "replica" with some justification in some circles.
You can make your mind up by reading Happy Birthday Elsie - Clicky
Read and enjoyed! Replica my arse, its no more a replica than any other lotus carlton. Cool car and i for one would read more on your experiences with it! It's got a few mentions over the years and PH'rs have spotted it in other Readers Cars threads that I have done - fundamentally it story to tell - one that I'm happy to share but it got labeled a "replica" with some justification in some circles.
You can make your mind up by reading Happy Birthday Elsie - Clicky
TotalControl said:
Brilliant thread. Thoroughly enjoyed the read op.
Don1 said:
Another amazing thread where a skilled person goes off the beaten track and creates something magical. Love it.
Really glad you guys are enjoying it, but your definately all being too nice and giving me too much credit! DuncanM said:
The oil debate is fascinating to me, for example, the Jag project 7/8 cars, with 500+bhp, supercharged V8 engines, run on 0w-20 oil. I'd love one or the other to be right, thick or thin, but that just doesn't seem the case.
there is no silver bullet in my experience unless you use the car in only controlled conditions. i.e. a out and out race car will likely use mono grade, but at that point your into static warming and all manner or pratting about. the best bet really is to work with the manufacturer spec and then adjust it for your own use case and climate IMOJhonno said:
I believe one of the advantages of running a Ester Synthetic, is it more stable and doesn't loose shear strength like a Synthetic blend does, due to the fact it doesn't have fillers/additives in to cause a drop with temperature.
never ending wormhole dude, its more resistant to temperature shearing to some degree but your still affected by fuel dilution and contamination.Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff