Henk's Saab 9-5 Aero Twin Scroll Budget Fastness Project
Discussion
So pretty normal kind of car really, bought a 9-5 SE saloon for £700 after my trusty V70 diesel broke it's timing belt.
as my first foray into proper petrol cars (with a turbo!) coming from a line of mostly turbo diesel estates, I was hooked.
However a saloon was totally impractical for well, everything.
As a mountain biker, tube chassis car builder and general tinkerer of stuff, I need to carry stuff!
So decided if I was going to stick with these cars, rather than bump the SE up to aero spec, just to buy an aero.
Had to be an estate, manual, 2004+ (to hopefully avoid the PCV sludging issues).
This was back in 2015 now, a trip down to Essex from mid Wales and an okay-condition car was bought. had some horrible yellow headlight film, a few dents, but reasonable mileage, super comfy and pulled wonderfully.
Cue quote from my mother "now that you've got this new car you're not going to mess around with it are you"
Few usual mods, huge Pipercross inside the wing, fabricated a 304 stainless 3" downpipe, 2.5" exhaust with a single 2.5" ebay silencer and a modified 3" back box, some nice burble on over-run, not much drone.
Mercedes alloys, new Mtec grooved discs and DS2500 pads.
Later on in the ownership it was noticeably losing oil, which has actually been the bane of this can.
Turbo wasn't in great shape so that was swapped for a Mellet CHRA and a 6cm Mamba hotside. This had a steel 3" v-band TIG welded on (nickel rods and welding an inch or so at a time, seems to have worked great!) and massively ported out to match.
It has continued to lose oil regardless, about 1l per 1000 miles, well I think it was a bit worse than that.
Lots of topping up, and careful driving to prevent the oil light coming on if i'd not kept an eye on the level!
Earlier in 2017 i noticed the classic signs of head gasket failure, so spent a few weeks driving my sister's 1.4D Yaris
while i faffed with getting the head off. Had a local engine builder (M.E. Poston, Newtown) skim it, change the valve guides as an attempt in keeping the oil in. valves were also lapped in. New genuine gaskets etc done.
At the same time I had a crack at finally fitting the huge FMIC which I admit did involve cutting out a lot of the (surprisingly rusty) crash bar.
Upon driving the car again I had some nightmares in not having any boost, changing/removing exhaust, checking the Kinugawa actuator was working. checking all over the slightly bodged intercooler pipework etc.
It was only when i was considering removing the turbo to check it over, I noticed the wastegate flapper had fallen out!
Luckily still had my original turbo kicking around so removed the flapper and welded that on, and finally had enough boost to blow off intercooler hoses!
Subframe bushes replaced with steel, becuase who wants the steering and suspension flopping around?
Drove it around happily for a few weeks until a few miles from home it started sounding rough and trying to stall.
The last 10 miles home were a nightmare, it was stalling and sounded like a jackhammer.
https://youtu.be/C6uUkXyVj20
Engine terminal.
Suspect it was all the oil starvation finally catching up with the engine and a spun main bearing.
May take it apart out of curiosity. May just scrap it.
Finally sourced a donor B235E engine for £150 delivered, came across an OEM Cobalt diff on ebay USA for about £450 including import fees. Man maths told me it was the sensible thing to do while the engine and gearbox are coming out anyway, and the nearest Saab garage mechanic has offered to fit it at the same time as his OBX in his lovely Viggen.
Exciting lump of steel
Engine is currently mostly stripped and ready to go to the builder, not work I trust myself doing.
The plan is for Wossners (while the engine is apart, am i right?), all new bottom end bearings and seals. Been keeping an eye out for an Accusump too just as a final preventative measure with regards to oil starvation.
So to justify the Wossners, I'll be going down the route of new injectors, got a cheap Evo tubular, a TD05HRA-16G6-9.8T from an Evo 7 RS (Titanuim alloy turbine and shaft
) so hoping for some nice early boost. Will take some fettling to fit...
Currently looking sad partially dismantled, cold wet Welsh winter is a bit of a deterrent when it comes to working on cars outside!
Well that's a fairly brief summary of the last 2 years or so!
My first foray into building up an engine, a totally stupid powerful wrong wheel drive car.
Cheers
- Henk
as my first foray into proper petrol cars (with a turbo!) coming from a line of mostly turbo diesel estates, I was hooked.
However a saloon was totally impractical for well, everything.
As a mountain biker, tube chassis car builder and general tinkerer of stuff, I need to carry stuff!
So decided if I was going to stick with these cars, rather than bump the SE up to aero spec, just to buy an aero.
Had to be an estate, manual, 2004+ (to hopefully avoid the PCV sludging issues).
This was back in 2015 now, a trip down to Essex from mid Wales and an okay-condition car was bought. had some horrible yellow headlight film, a few dents, but reasonable mileage, super comfy and pulled wonderfully.
Cue quote from my mother "now that you've got this new car you're not going to mess around with it are you"
Few usual mods, huge Pipercross inside the wing, fabricated a 304 stainless 3" downpipe, 2.5" exhaust with a single 2.5" ebay silencer and a modified 3" back box, some nice burble on over-run, not much drone.
Mercedes alloys, new Mtec grooved discs and DS2500 pads.
Later on in the ownership it was noticeably losing oil, which has actually been the bane of this can.
Turbo wasn't in great shape so that was swapped for a Mellet CHRA and a 6cm Mamba hotside. This had a steel 3" v-band TIG welded on (nickel rods and welding an inch or so at a time, seems to have worked great!) and massively ported out to match.
It has continued to lose oil regardless, about 1l per 1000 miles, well I think it was a bit worse than that.
Lots of topping up, and careful driving to prevent the oil light coming on if i'd not kept an eye on the level!
Earlier in 2017 i noticed the classic signs of head gasket failure, so spent a few weeks driving my sister's 1.4D Yaris
while i faffed with getting the head off. Had a local engine builder (M.E. Poston, Newtown) skim it, change the valve guides as an attempt in keeping the oil in. valves were also lapped in. New genuine gaskets etc done. At the same time I had a crack at finally fitting the huge FMIC which I admit did involve cutting out a lot of the (surprisingly rusty) crash bar.
Upon driving the car again I had some nightmares in not having any boost, changing/removing exhaust, checking the Kinugawa actuator was working. checking all over the slightly bodged intercooler pipework etc.
It was only when i was considering removing the turbo to check it over, I noticed the wastegate flapper had fallen out!
Luckily still had my original turbo kicking around so removed the flapper and welded that on, and finally had enough boost to blow off intercooler hoses!
Subframe bushes replaced with steel, becuase who wants the steering and suspension flopping around?
Drove it around happily for a few weeks until a few miles from home it started sounding rough and trying to stall.
The last 10 miles home were a nightmare, it was stalling and sounded like a jackhammer.
https://youtu.be/C6uUkXyVj20
Engine terminal.
Suspect it was all the oil starvation finally catching up with the engine and a spun main bearing.
May take it apart out of curiosity. May just scrap it.
Finally sourced a donor B235E engine for £150 delivered, came across an OEM Cobalt diff on ebay USA for about £450 including import fees. Man maths told me it was the sensible thing to do while the engine and gearbox are coming out anyway, and the nearest Saab garage mechanic has offered to fit it at the same time as his OBX in his lovely Viggen.
Exciting lump of steel
Engine is currently mostly stripped and ready to go to the builder, not work I trust myself doing.
The plan is for Wossners (while the engine is apart, am i right?), all new bottom end bearings and seals. Been keeping an eye out for an Accusump too just as a final preventative measure with regards to oil starvation.
So to justify the Wossners, I'll be going down the route of new injectors, got a cheap Evo tubular, a TD05HRA-16G6-9.8T from an Evo 7 RS (Titanuim alloy turbine and shaft
) so hoping for some nice early boost. Will take some fettling to fit...Currently looking sad partially dismantled, cold wet Welsh winter is a bit of a deterrent when it comes to working on cars outside!
Well that's a fairly brief summary of the last 2 years or so!
My first foray into building up an engine, a totally stupid powerful wrong wheel drive car.
Cheers
- Henk
Edited by 43655 on Friday 1st December 09:59
Nutty9000 said:
Love it! How much power are you aiming for? If no more than 350 bhp / 520 NM then Bosch green giants 465cc are perfect.
Make sure you use a bigger airbox / Jetex 80mm cone is ideal (see my thread for that).
Should spin up real fast with that turbo, any reason why you didn't go for a 19t with a 7cm exhaust housing though?
I recommend https://imgbb.com for hosting images.
Sorry, have sorted the pictures out now! I hope.Make sure you use a bigger airbox / Jetex 80mm cone is ideal (see my thread for that).
Should spin up real fast with that turbo, any reason why you didn't go for a 19t with a 7cm exhaust housing though?
I recommend https://imgbb.com for hosting images.
Hoping for somewhere between 350 and 400, or at least 300 at the wheels. Yes I considered Green Giants, possibly VXR I've heard, or Bosch.
Airbox has been binned, I have a foamy cone filter with a 4" inlet or something silly, it's enormous, about 250mm long x 200 diameter.
hope so yes, and being twin scroll is a win for efficiency too. That was a large part of the appeal, plus cost, sort of. A 19t and 7cm would be more than the cost of this TD05, i think I can upgrade to a 10.5T instead without too much hassle if i want. I wanted a top mount turbo really as i'm fed up of trying to fiddle with stuff way down in the engine bay. this would have meant a new manifold anyway so just got to have a look at alternative turbos, there was no reason to stick with the TD04, except for it being fairly tried and tested.
Thanks, sorted the pictures using the forum's Thumbsnap uploader
Nutty9000 said:
Looks epic, great job on sourcing the diff also!
Love the wheels, what are they off?
Regarding the oil leak, make sure everything is inspected and sealed up correctly during the rebuild - 1 litre per 1000 miles isn't major but it could be leaking through the cam cover, in addition to the usual place, the sump.
Thanks, yes i figured its about the same cost as an OBX, but i'd much rather my chances with a low mileage OEM than a questionable-quality chinesium one, even though I've been offered quite a friendly price for the installation.Love the wheels, what are they off?
Regarding the oil leak, make sure everything is inspected and sealed up correctly during the rebuild - 1 litre per 1000 miles isn't major but it could be leaking through the cam cover, in addition to the usual place, the sump.
Forgot to mention I plan to rip out a load of steel from the flywheel, which along with (I think) lighter pistons should improve the engine response.
30% less mass
36% lower polar moment of inertia.
Thanks, wheels are Mercedes 18x8. Well okay they're rubbish replicas, and one is gold becuase I bucked one and thats the spare!
No issues running 5x112 on 5x110 using 'wobble bolts'.
as for oil, have a new sensor to go on, did all new valve cover seals with the new head. I'm going to try and clean up the block and paint it so oil leaks can be tracked down easier.
Have been told the exhaust puffs a bit of black smoke on acceleration, although that sounds like overfuelling I suspect
Thanks, yes it took a while to find this one, and I wasn't overjoyed about the long drive and the car's a bit ropey but oh well.
That was 2 years ago December 1st now!
The flywheel seems to be a common mod and the percentages are inline with what is usually fitted. Plus I*'ll probably keep the balance shafts fitted, and it's the longer stroke 2.3 over the revvier 2.0.
Appreciate the warning though, fingers crossed it will be ok.
As for noise, had a huge filter in the wing for over a year and there's always been plenty of turbo noise, but I'm apprehensive to try the twin-scroll for sure!
Compared the TD05HR to a stock TD04, it's bigger than I expected!
|https://thumbsnap.com/svO28tfF[/url]
Oil drinking sure seems to be a trait of Saabs, heard of quite a few using a lot.
cam covers were done but I'll probably replace again.
Crank seals again will be done
Oil cooler pipes I've not checked but will do, likewise the PCV valves, thanks for that.
I do hate the mess of a PCV, would love to just run one pipe and a catch can...
Yes I hope with the twin scroll to be a win-win (apart from the complexity, time and cost ) to come in quite low down, but have more still at the top end compared to just a bigger compressor on a TD04.
Heard it a few times people going big-turbo that while the top end is unreal, it doesn't get there until 70-80mph which makes it totally unusable unless driving around in second! so really didn't want to lose any more boost response than necessary.
I hope the tubular (which I'll have to fabricate
) will help, and intake tubing
As much as I wanted to run top-mounted, it makes a lot more sense to run the turbo how it was designed to be run.[url]
That was 2 years ago December 1st now!
The flywheel seems to be a common mod and the percentages are inline with what is usually fitted. Plus I*'ll probably keep the balance shafts fitted, and it's the longer stroke 2.3 over the revvier 2.0.
Appreciate the warning though, fingers crossed it will be ok.
As for noise, had a huge filter in the wing for over a year and there's always been plenty of turbo noise, but I'm apprehensive to try the twin-scroll for sure!
Compared the TD05HR to a stock TD04, it's bigger than I expected!
|https://thumbsnap.com/svO28tfF[/url]Oil drinking sure seems to be a trait of Saabs, heard of quite a few using a lot.
cam covers were done but I'll probably replace again.
Crank seals again will be done
Oil cooler pipes I've not checked but will do, likewise the PCV valves, thanks for that.
I do hate the mess of a PCV, would love to just run one pipe and a catch can...
Yes I hope with the twin scroll to be a win-win (apart from the complexity, time and cost
) to come in quite low down, but have more still at the top end compared to just a bigger compressor on a TD04.Heard it a few times people going big-turbo that while the top end is unreal, it doesn't get there until 70-80mph which makes it totally unusable unless driving around in second! so really didn't want to lose any more boost response than necessary.
I hope the tubular (which I'll have to fabricate
) will help, and intake tubingAs much as I wanted to run top-mounted, it makes a lot more sense to run the turbo how it was designed to be run.[url]
madwrx said:
obviously no point comparing between engines but the scoobs(with 3metre long headers lol)were laggier on a td05 boosting higher at around 35-3800rpm with similar 350bhp on a16g at 1.6-7 bar..
trying to look for "cheap" old tech turbos nowadays is false economy imo, when there are dozens of billet wheeled versions that will flow better in every way up top and low down.
turbo doesn't fit at all with the cheapy manifold i have there, it would be inside the radiator!trying to look for "cheap" old tech turbos nowadays is false economy imo, when there are dozens of billet wheeled versions that will flow better in every way up top and low down.
Clocking of the cold side is no bother I kow, not sure yet if i'll need to do anything to the hot side yet, will just hav to grind off the index pin.
As for power, I don't know, it's pretty unknown. The otivation came from another user on UKSaabs who has an evo turbo and stock anifold with a bit of a hack port-spacing adapting setup from what I understand
Rich C @ UKS said:
Response/lag is pretty good I think, need to double check some logs on my other laptop (Not with me at present) but from memory; Starts to build from just over 2k, pushing 1bar by 2.5k, then 1.5 by just over 3k. Will hold 1.5 bar to about 6k, at which point the boost control maxes out and the wastegate starts to be forced open, but the compressor is about at max flow by then anyway.
I've got it mapped to 1600 airmass from 3-6k which is just over 500nm and at 6k should be within sight of the 400bhp mark. Could do with a bit more work on the ignition map and some dyno time to get the max numbers, but I'm happy enough with it as is.
The twin scroll turbine housing is meant to help the spool vs. a similar sized single scroll.
On the response side, the turbo I have is from an EVO RS, so it has a titanium aluminide turbine and shaft supposedly worth a few RPM of spool, and te saab b235 has 300cc over the 4G63, so both factors should help. That and being a twin-scroll, hopefully will help. I've got it mapped to 1600 airmass from 3-6k which is just over 500nm and at 6k should be within sight of the 400bhp mark. Could do with a bit more work on the ignition map and some dyno time to get the max numbers, but I'm happy enough with it as is.
The twin scroll turbine housing is meant to help the spool vs. a similar sized single scroll.
I will be having a go at making a tubular manifold for it, which looks to be a pain due to the goofy shaped turbo ports.
Downpipe will be 3" and probably divided for a long way, ports matched etc which should all help!
I must admit I have been skeptical of the power, but its considerably bigger than stock so surely it can push more air?
I did wonder about looking for a bigger compressor, 18g or 20G isn't big money.
just a thought, is the subaru a twin scroll TD05?
Also, the evo's 16G6 compressor is bigger than the 'large' 16G compressor in other TD05s, I believe to the tune of approx 550cfm vs 505?
There seems to be quite the minefield available, but I wonder if, should an upgrade be necessary, a 10.5T hotside, evo 9 compressor housing and an 18G compressor maybe.
Not sure i follow what you're saying about the billet, I assume you mean one that's been optimised a bit further with different blade quantities/shape not a billet copy of the stock cast one, as that would achieve nothing really?
On the subject of turbo tech, from here https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-engine-turbo... apparently the Ti.Al shaft and turbine are with some 500rpm in spool-up gains, and i assume no loss of top end so chuffed about that.
Been designing an exhaust manifold to fit, would have been easier with en EVO X TD05 as they don't run back to front but never mind
|https://thumbsnap.com/VDfXhTpf[/url]
But anyway this is all getting VERY ahead of myself. Still need to piss about over christmas removing the junk engine.[url]
Also, the evo's 16G6 compressor is bigger than the 'large' 16G compressor in other TD05s, I believe to the tune of approx 550cfm vs 505?
There seems to be quite the minefield available, but I wonder if, should an upgrade be necessary, a 10.5T hotside, evo 9 compressor housing and an 18G compressor maybe.
Not sure i follow what you're saying about the billet, I assume you mean one that's been optimised a bit further with different blade quantities/shape not a billet copy of the stock cast one, as that would achieve nothing really?
On the subject of turbo tech, from here https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/evo-engine-turbo... apparently the Ti.Al shaft and turbine are with some 500rpm in spool-up gains, and i assume no loss of top end so chuffed about that.
Been designing an exhaust manifold to fit, would have been easier with en EVO X TD05 as they don't run back to front but never mind
|https://thumbsnap.com/VDfXhTpf[/url]But anyway this is all getting VERY ahead of myself. Still need to piss about over christmas removing the junk engine.[url]
Nutty9000 said:
Looks like you're making excellent progress! Can strongly recommend Bilstein B12s. They made my 9-5 feel way more modern. Who's doing the mapping? I can whole-heartily recommend Karl at Noobtune.
PS I've got some 630 injectors going spare soon (need 875s) so they should come in handy for your goal of 400 bhp?
Will be getting B12 later down the road when funds allow. the Aero kit isn't bad mind, i do appreciate the softness it does have, but it also is a boat too!PS I've got some 630 injectors going spare soon (need 875s) so they should come in handy for your goal of 400 bhp?
Hopefully Karl yes
Ah interested in them potentially, they Bosch EV? will be a while before I need them I expect.
This is the same Henk as of UKS "350-400hp build", recognise your username too!
Finally getting some s
t done 
Cars been turning green and rusty over winter, but towed it to the farm, using a solid bar is so much better than a rope!
How hard can it be..?
Getting the engine out went a lot better than expected, came out of the top with engine, gearbox and passengers side driveshaft
sorry for the bad photos.
t done Cars been turning green and rusty over winter, but towed it to the farm, using a solid bar is so much better than a rope!
How hard can it be..?
Getting the engine out went a lot better than expected, came out of the top with engine, gearbox and passengers side driveshaft
sorry for the bad photos.
Engine back from builders. Honed, new bearings throughout, Wossners in and looking sexy.
And yes, purple, of course
Timing stuff fitted up, hopefully correct, head on and timing cover bonded in place.
Sorting out a mocal (copy) oil cooler to replace the crusty stock one.
Positioning the weird shaped TD05 has given me a few sleepless hours so far.
Making the manifold is pretty daunting at the moment!
But I have both flanges and a box full of bends now
Non engine content...
rubber bushes can go to hell, turned up some acetal / delrin bushes on stainless steel shafts for the stock wishbones.
The bores are for V seals to keen the worst of the welsh weather out of there hopefully.
Will be a bit of an experiment...
Edited by 43655 on Monday 21st May 20:08
Hi Nutty, slow, but progressing!
Lets have some pics;
Aircon, no thanks
Blanking off the throttle body coolant feeds
gay sparkles
Phosphor Bronze shifter bushes
7075 aluminium drop links w/ sealed rod ends
Lightened flywheel, 7kg ish I think, down from 10,75
Tidied engine loom, added plugs for the MAF and a few bits
Having to bodge the fan housing to fit the chinese ebay radiator, not impressed by it, but hardly a surprise...
Modified and painted wishbones
Oil cooler pipework
For the Mocal. Then yesterday discovered it's in the way of the intercooler pipework
Fabulous-ed calipers, and Bilstein (B12 kit)
Chinese Coolers
power panel, for my boot-mounted battery.
Makes space for the Accusump I've got to put in, when I work out how to plumb it!
Lets have some pics;
Aircon, no thanks
Blanking off the throttle body coolant feeds
gay sparkles
Phosphor Bronze shifter bushes
7075 aluminium drop links w/ sealed rod ends
Lightened flywheel, 7kg ish I think, down from 10,75
Tidied engine loom, added plugs for the MAF and a few bits
Having to bodge the fan housing to fit the chinese ebay radiator, not impressed by it, but hardly a surprise...
Modified and painted wishbones
Oil cooler pipework
For the Mocal. Then yesterday discovered it's in the way of the intercooler pipework
Fabulous-ed calipers, and Bilstein (B12 kit)
Chinese Coolers
power panel, for my boot-mounted battery.
Makes space for the Accusump I've got to put in, when I work out how to plumb it!
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