1975 (1973) Lancia 2000 HF Coupe
Discussion
TL/DR: Bought another Lancia. Bit rusty, not too bad.
When is a Lancia Flavia not a Lancia Flavia? The answer is: When it's a Lancia 2000. How do you get a few more 70s years out of a 1960s design whilst waiting for the (ill fated) Gamma to be ready? You bang in some Bosch injection and an extra gear ratio, and stick on an HF badge (but notably an HF badge without any elephants on it).
Lancia's boffin Professor Fessia persuaded the then still independent company to depart from sliding pillar suspension and rear wheel drive at the beginning of the 1960s, and in consequence the world got small car Fulvia and medium car Flavia (V6 RWD Flaminia was the big car).
For the Flavia (but not the V4 Fulvia), there was also a departure from Lancia's usual V engines, with an all new flat four, hung out ahead of the front axle with a longitudinal gearbox behind it, and all this plus some mildly whacky front suspension mounted on big subframes, with a Panhard-rodded dead axle at the back, and discs all round.
As usual, Lancia gave the Berlinas (saloons) slightly frumpy bodies but good interior space and equipment, and got various Carrozzeria to design and build the good looking sporty ones - spiders, coupes, and specials. Zagato did a typically nutty looking Sport.
Pininfarina bagged the Flavia Coupe, which went from a somewhat timid 1500 to a rather better 1800. As the 70s kicked in the body got redone and the engine became a two litre (1991 cc). Fiat was now in charge but this car remained all Lancia. No more Flavia, the car was rebranded as the 2000. Some of the previous Coupes had Kugelfischer fuel injection while most had Solex carbs. For the last of the line, a small number of Coupes got Bosch injection and became the HF. The five speed gearbox had a dogleg first below reverse. Pininfarina recycled their design for dashboard and console from the Ferrari 330 GT (they also put this into their Peugeot 504 Coupe).
The car in this thread was made in September 1973 and might possibly be the last RHD one made, or one of the last. The type remained on sale until 1975, and early that year a partner in PWC bought this car - the sales order listed Rosso Scudo, grey cloth, inertia reel static seatbelts (this seems to have changed to static before delivery, but the car not has inertia reels), electric aerial, and the car had electric windows as standard. The car went back and forth between Belgravia and Inverness-shire until replaced by a Gamma Coupe in 1982.
To abbreviate the rest of the history, by 1989 the car was a bit of a banger, and had been resprayed first black and then cream and maroon. Its fourth owner then gave the car a thorough restoration, gave it keep fit windows, put it back to its original colour and recovered the front seats. He had the car from 1986 to 2005, and the car then went to Ireland for ten years. It's been back in the UK since the end of 2015 and I became its eighth owner (not counting a couple of Lancia dealers in its early years) last week.
The history file suggests that the car has generally been well maintained for most or all of its life.
The car has, I think, lived outdoors under a cover for the last four years, and it has gone a bit crusty on the offside, most notably at the rear wheel arch which is flaky pastry. Other bad (but not that bad) spots include the base of the front wing ahead of the door. The interior is pretty good, especially the groovy fluted headlining.
The engine (107,000 miles) and gearbox seem OK, and the electrics work, but the rear brakes and handbrake need doing, and up front the steering idler arm has play (I forgot to say that these cars have power steering), and some bushes need replacing. Overall, however pretty good for the money. Sadly this means that I will be selling my (non rusty) Lancia Beta, as funds and space dictate that I can't keep both.
The HF is not a ball of fire (nominal 125 BHP, not super light, said to be good for 118 mph when new), but it's a long legged cruisy GT with gear ratios to suit that style, and it handles very nimbly (or will do when the steering and brakes are fixed). It's lovely to sit in and sounds quite good, although not Alfa good.
When is a Lancia Flavia not a Lancia Flavia? The answer is: When it's a Lancia 2000. How do you get a few more 70s years out of a 1960s design whilst waiting for the (ill fated) Gamma to be ready? You bang in some Bosch injection and an extra gear ratio, and stick on an HF badge (but notably an HF badge without any elephants on it).
Lancia's boffin Professor Fessia persuaded the then still independent company to depart from sliding pillar suspension and rear wheel drive at the beginning of the 1960s, and in consequence the world got small car Fulvia and medium car Flavia (V6 RWD Flaminia was the big car).
For the Flavia (but not the V4 Fulvia), there was also a departure from Lancia's usual V engines, with an all new flat four, hung out ahead of the front axle with a longitudinal gearbox behind it, and all this plus some mildly whacky front suspension mounted on big subframes, with a Panhard-rodded dead axle at the back, and discs all round.
As usual, Lancia gave the Berlinas (saloons) slightly frumpy bodies but good interior space and equipment, and got various Carrozzeria to design and build the good looking sporty ones - spiders, coupes, and specials. Zagato did a typically nutty looking Sport.
Pininfarina bagged the Flavia Coupe, which went from a somewhat timid 1500 to a rather better 1800. As the 70s kicked in the body got redone and the engine became a two litre (1991 cc). Fiat was now in charge but this car remained all Lancia. No more Flavia, the car was rebranded as the 2000. Some of the previous Coupes had Kugelfischer fuel injection while most had Solex carbs. For the last of the line, a small number of Coupes got Bosch injection and became the HF. The five speed gearbox had a dogleg first below reverse. Pininfarina recycled their design for dashboard and console from the Ferrari 330 GT (they also put this into their Peugeot 504 Coupe).
The car in this thread was made in September 1973 and might possibly be the last RHD one made, or one of the last. The type remained on sale until 1975, and early that year a partner in PWC bought this car - the sales order listed Rosso Scudo, grey cloth, inertia reel static seatbelts (this seems to have changed to static before delivery, but the car not has inertia reels), electric aerial, and the car had electric windows as standard. The car went back and forth between Belgravia and Inverness-shire until replaced by a Gamma Coupe in 1982.
To abbreviate the rest of the history, by 1989 the car was a bit of a banger, and had been resprayed first black and then cream and maroon. Its fourth owner then gave the car a thorough restoration, gave it keep fit windows, put it back to its original colour and recovered the front seats. He had the car from 1986 to 2005, and the car then went to Ireland for ten years. It's been back in the UK since the end of 2015 and I became its eighth owner (not counting a couple of Lancia dealers in its early years) last week.
The history file suggests that the car has generally been well maintained for most or all of its life.
The car has, I think, lived outdoors under a cover for the last four years, and it has gone a bit crusty on the offside, most notably at the rear wheel arch which is flaky pastry. Other bad (but not that bad) spots include the base of the front wing ahead of the door. The interior is pretty good, especially the groovy fluted headlining.
The engine (107,000 miles) and gearbox seem OK, and the electrics work, but the rear brakes and handbrake need doing, and up front the steering idler arm has play (I forgot to say that these cars have power steering), and some bushes need replacing. Overall, however pretty good for the money. Sadly this means that I will be selling my (non rusty) Lancia Beta, as funds and space dictate that I can't keep both.
The HF is not a ball of fire (nominal 125 BHP, not super light, said to be good for 118 mph when new), but it's a long legged cruisy GT with gear ratios to suit that style, and it handles very nimbly (or will do when the steering and brakes are fixed). It's lovely to sit in and sounds quite good, although not Alfa good.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 10th April 09:04
PS: Good and plumpy tallish Firestones all round (needing pumping up in pics above).
PPS: Here is a bloke with a really amazing porno 'tache and some dodgy gloves going on about ones of these cars a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D48pTaWayo
PPS: Here is a bloke with a really amazing porno 'tache and some dodgy gloves going on about ones of these cars a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D48pTaWayo
Re the HF badge, why no elephants?
Lancia buff Wim Oude Weernink makes a boob in his 2019 book on Fulvias and Flavias when he says that the HF badge is an "ie" inezione elettronica badge.
The Lancia medallion on the bonnet of my car should not be there. The bonnet may come from a 350 quid donor car that died to save my car in 1989.
The rear badge says Lancia 2000 in groovy 70s sci fi writing, and there is another elephant-free HF badge on the back.
The boot is huuuuuuuge. But there are no elephants in there either.
Lancia buff Wim Oude Weernink makes a boob in his 2019 book on Fulvias and Flavias when he says that the HF badge is an "ie" inezione elettronica badge.
The Lancia medallion on the bonnet of my car should not be there. The bonnet may come from a 350 quid donor car that died to save my car in 1989.
The rear badge says Lancia 2000 in groovy 70s sci fi writing, and there is another elephant-free HF badge on the back.
The boot is huuuuuuuge. But there are no elephants in there either.
I came sooooo close to buying a Gamma Berlina about three years ago, but bottled it. A friend has a lovely Gamma Coupe that I drove once (fab), but he has too many cars and hasn't had the time to get the Gamma sorted, so it is stuck in his shed.
Please tell us more about your Gamma. Thread please! Yes deffo let's compare the two in the summer.
As for the dogleg first, it does take some getting used to. The engine is torquey, so on the flat pulling away in second isn't an issue, but first will I assume be needed for a hill start. 70s reviews suggest that changing between first and second can be a real pain when the oil is cold, but this far I have not encountered that.
No proper driving will happen until the rear brakes have been done and the steering idler bar has been fixed. The play in the latter is causing the car to nose to the left when the throttle is closed. A fixer upper kit is on its way from Germany.
Please tell us more about your Gamma. Thread please! Yes deffo let's compare the two in the summer.
As for the dogleg first, it does take some getting used to. The engine is torquey, so on the flat pulling away in second isn't an issue, but first will I assume be needed for a hill start. 70s reviews suggest that changing between first and second can be a real pain when the oil is cold, but this far I have not encountered that.
No proper driving will happen until the rear brakes have been done and the steering idler bar has been fixed. The play in the latter is causing the car to nose to the left when the throttle is closed. A fixer upper kit is on its way from Germany.
I notice that by the time of the Gamma Lancia had decided to make the Berlina in the range good looking and not just the Coupe. They had a go with the Beta Berlina, but it is still pretty frumpy compared to a Beta Coupe or an HPE. That whacky non hatchback looks like a hatchback 1970s thing was whacky. See also: Princess.
By contrast with Gammas, Fulvia and Flavia Berlinas are, at least to my eyes, surprisingly plain and stolid when compared to their Coupe cousins.
Alfa: much the same with the Giulia Berlina in the 60s. See also: Fiat 130 Berlina - mehhhh. Fiat 130 Coupe - swooooon.
This is very fine on the subject of Coupes and the very dodgy people who own them. Also super accurate about Ireland in the 70s and 80s, as are the comments.
https://driventowrite.com/2016/01/24/ireland-in-th...
By contrast with Gammas, Fulvia and Flavia Berlinas are, at least to my eyes, surprisingly plain and stolid when compared to their Coupe cousins.
Alfa: much the same with the Giulia Berlina in the 60s. See also: Fiat 130 Berlina - mehhhh. Fiat 130 Coupe - swooooon.
This is very fine on the subject of Coupes and the very dodgy people who own them. Also super accurate about Ireland in the 70s and 80s, as are the comments.
https://driventowrite.com/2016/01/24/ireland-in-th...
Mefistofele said:
Breadvan72 said:
Re the HF badge, why no elephants?
I may be wrong on this, but I believe the baby elefants were the lucky charm of Lancia's squadra corse, i.e., the comps department.Being a more of a Grand Tourer, the Flavias and HF 2000s were not supposed to need them... or to have earned them, as in the later, Integrale years, I think the number of elefantini shown depended on titles won.
One should expect then to find tiny pachyderms attached to Fulvias and Deltas –but not to HF 2000s, Gammas, or Themas (not even the 8.32).
Having said not so long ago Lancia has sold an Elefantino Blu special series of the Ypsilon/Y10, because of marketing and all that (and no proper respect for tradition).
HF itself had as you know derived from the early loyalty programme of Lancia: buy six new Lancias, join the Hi Fidelity Club and get a posh keyring, or something; but the HF designation was then grabbed by the Squadra Corse for the sporty motors. One story about the elephants is "you can't have elephants on a sports car, elephants are slow", to which the response would be "...but very reliable".
Mefistofele said:
By the way, I forgot to congratulate you on your car. Excellent choice!
At this rate in a few years' time you may end up buying a Dilambda (or an Astura!). Please carry on!
Regarding the Gamma Coupè, i suppose it was also built by Pininfarina? That would probably mean they are slightly more durable than the saloon and therefore the better bet of the two. At least that is what used to be the case with sundry low-volume Ferrari and Fiat products assembled at Grugliasco.
PS: The million-dollar question: the verdict of your wife on your new acquisition is...?
I bet she loves it.
Cheers! I like it (so far...)At this rate in a few years' time you may end up buying a Dilambda (or an Astura!). Please carry on!
Regarding the Gamma Coupè, i suppose it was also built by Pininfarina? That would probably mean they are slightly more durable than the saloon and therefore the better bet of the two. At least that is what used to be the case with sundry low-volume Ferrari and Fiat products assembled at Grugliasco.
PS: The million-dollar question: the verdict of your wife on your new acquisition is...?
I bet she loves it.
Please Santa Lottery Ticket can I have an Aurelia B20 GT?
Dunno re Gamma Coupe - must look that up. Pininfarina build quality seems pretty good.
My wife loves my Appia, quite likes my Fiat 124 (but not that much), and barely tolerates my other cars (she likes my boring modern car). I shall unveil the 2000 HF to her when it's been lightly tarted up. I think that she will be grumpy at me, but will also love the car - it will remind her a bit of the Jensen Interceptor I had ages ago which she adored (because biggish luxo GT). Her grump will be assuaged when I say that I shall sell my Beta and one motorbike (which I shall do) . I add that we are at the stage of life where we spend half of our time living apart and half together, and we have fairly separate finances.
PS: as for trashing tradition, Chrysler did some humdrum car a few years back, and in Italy called it a Flavia. Che disgrazia!
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 19th March 20:29
I really like Driven to Write - the best car magazine anywhere?
https://driventowrite.com/2021/01/30/alec-issigoni...
https://driventowrite.com/2021/01/30/alec-issigoni...
Well, why buy any classic car? I think that this car looks great, it contains interesting engineering, and it will once tinkered with be fun to drive. I am really more of a Grand Tourer person than a sports car person. I also like cars that are very rare.
I like the Beta a lot, but I cannot justify the funds or the storage space for two front wheel drive 1970s Lancias, one a mid sized cruisy GT, and the other a small GT with more buzzbox character. Although Betas are much better cars than the pub bores say they are, the Flavias/2000s are from a previous generation of Lancia and are a big step up in classiness.
For a more out and out rorty torty car I have a Fiat 124 Sport . That is more thrashy bashy RWD wahoo. If I did not have that car, the Beta would stay.
I like the Beta a lot, but I cannot justify the funds or the storage space for two front wheel drive 1970s Lancias, one a mid sized cruisy GT, and the other a small GT with more buzzbox character. Although Betas are much better cars than the pub bores say they are, the Flavias/2000s are from a previous generation of Lancia and are a big step up in classiness.
For a more out and out rorty torty car I have a Fiat 124 Sport . That is more thrashy bashy RWD wahoo. If I did not have that car, the Beta would stay.
Cheers. At present the cars has some issues, mainly with bodywork, but at least its mechanical issues are a known quantity thanks to a very through check by my mechanic. There will of course be other snags that arise - the car is almost half a century old - but it doesn't seem too bad. Parts support from club and suppliers seems pretty good.
Front end: some bits of brakes and suspension.
Very chunky subframe plus chunky rubber thing for the engine mounting visible. There are some tired bushes etc and signs that the car stood for a while in the last year or so. It seems to have been loved up to 2017 but a tad unloved since then. It's done about 1500 miles in the last three years.
LOADSA parcels arriving, mostly from Italy. Italian sellers of bits of old cars send stuff rapidly, sometimes overnight. German suppliers take weeks.
Very chunky subframe plus chunky rubber thing for the engine mounting visible. There are some tired bushes etc and signs that the car stood for a while in the last year or so. It seems to have been loved up to 2017 but a tad unloved since then. It's done about 1500 miles in the last three years.
LOADSA parcels arriving, mostly from Italy. Italian sellers of bits of old cars send stuff rapidly, sometimes overnight. German suppliers take weeks.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 21st March 15:24
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 21st March 15:30
A V6 Flavia would be an interesting sparring partner for a V6 Peugeot 504 Coupe. BUT... from memory the Busso, a fabulous thing, is quite a big engine, so fitting one in under that Pininfarina bonnet line might be a hassle, and the weight distribution might also need some thought. Prof Dr Ing Fessia had very clear ideas about weight distribution, and positioned the boxer engine according to those ideas.
FACTOID: The rare, LHD only, and slightly odd looking Lancia Kappa Coupe came with a Busso engine.
These articles are quite good -
https://driventowrite.com/2021/01/25/1960-lancia-f...
https://driventowrite.com/2021/01/30/alec-issigoni...
FACTOID: The rare, LHD only, and slightly odd looking Lancia Kappa Coupe came with a Busso engine.
These articles are quite good -
https://driventowrite.com/2021/01/25/1960-lancia-f...
https://driventowrite.com/2021/01/30/alec-issigoni...
Hello DeltaHPE, I infer that you are the car's fourth owner, Many thanks for the helpful information. Your work on the car stood up well over time. The drivers' seat has just one small split in it. The current bonnet has paint cracks on it and needs a respray. I will get the badge off as soon as possible.
Penguinracer, I haven't flown as P1 for the last five years. I occasionally go for a trip in a Tiger Moth owned by a friend. I might get back into motor gliding, but am not sure I will have the time, and I spaff all my money on cars and bikes.
Penguinracer, I haven't flown as P1 for the last five years. I occasionally go for a trip in a Tiger Moth owned by a friend. I might get back into motor gliding, but am not sure I will have the time, and I spaff all my money on cars and bikes.
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