IPDs - do they work on N/A - let's find out
Discussion
mrdemon said:
when is the IPD competition one together with a GT3 Throttle body going on ?
that will be more interesting as it will be getting more air in.
If you recall my earlier quotethat will be more interesting as it will be getting more air in.
"Taking either a 996 or 997 gen 1 car and fitting the competition IPD together with 83mm TB (e.g. GT3 TB) will only provide very marginal gains over using the standard size IPD"
this is why we are just at this stage testing a standard IPD.
However, on Wednesday Mark will be bringing his car to us for several bits including x51 manifolds. We will still be using the std IPD before and afterwards, but Mark wants to upgrade to the TB and competition one later.
So we will be the test at some point this month on that as well.
Trying at this stage to see whether just the std ipd is a value for money upgrade.
RESULTS
Summary
Dyno shows improved bhp/tq across whole power curve with peak hp increase of 10hp/13nm tq
Maximum hp up to 313.7hp from 309hp.
Test conditions
Test car 996 c4s standard with K&N Panel filter. Standard car should dyno 320hp at flywheel and made 309hp on best run as a baseline.
Car was run 3 times on dyno and on the third pull the maximum power was read as a baseline for the test.
Standard IPD was fitted
Car was allowed time to adapt
Car was put on the dyno and on the second pull, the results were immediately obvious. Those are the results published.
On the road – owner reported mid range increase in torque.
Conclusion
We are still to test a 997 gen 1 c2s on Wednesday, which will be vbox for on the road performance changes. However clearly today shows that a car with working Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor with just a standard IPD fitted, gains across the whole curve, which is more important that headline maximum hp figures.
IPD themselves were a little disappointed with the final figures, but in our opinion, a useable increase in mid range power is a good result. It will be interesting to see the results when these IPDs are fitted in combination of other modification such as exhaust and manifold.
Prior to this test, we already fitted IPDs to our turbo packages and on those with just the IPD fitted there was a noticeable difference in mid range power as well.
Assuming Wednesday goes the same and there is no reason to think otherwise, we are happy to endorse IPDs and will be offering them as performance upgrades.
We will also be testing their new y-pipe direct replacement shortly as well on a 997 GT2, as well as an IPD.
Would like to thank Greg for supplying the IPD, Phil for providing the car and Charlie for doing the dynos.
Will post up on Wednesday with the next set of results.
Summary
Dyno shows improved bhp/tq across whole power curve with peak hp increase of 10hp/13nm tq
Maximum hp up to 313.7hp from 309hp.
Test conditions
Test car 996 c4s standard with K&N Panel filter. Standard car should dyno 320hp at flywheel and made 309hp on best run as a baseline.
Car was run 3 times on dyno and on the third pull the maximum power was read as a baseline for the test.
Standard IPD was fitted
Car was allowed time to adapt
Car was put on the dyno and on the second pull, the results were immediately obvious. Those are the results published.
On the road – owner reported mid range increase in torque.
Conclusion
We are still to test a 997 gen 1 c2s on Wednesday, which will be vbox for on the road performance changes. However clearly today shows that a car with working Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor with just a standard IPD fitted, gains across the whole curve, which is more important that headline maximum hp figures.
IPD themselves were a little disappointed with the final figures, but in our opinion, a useable increase in mid range power is a good result. It will be interesting to see the results when these IPDs are fitted in combination of other modification such as exhaust and manifold.
Prior to this test, we already fitted IPDs to our turbo packages and on those with just the IPD fitted there was a noticeable difference in mid range power as well.
Assuming Wednesday goes the same and there is no reason to think otherwise, we are happy to endorse IPDs and will be offering them as performance upgrades.
We will also be testing their new y-pipe direct replacement shortly as well on a 997 GT2, as well as an IPD.
Would like to thank Greg for supplying the IPD, Phil for providing the car and Charlie for doing the dynos.
Will post up on Wednesday with the next set of results.
Mankers said:
^ - Interesting results, would you imagine similar gains over base line figure if you fitted an IPD to a 996 with a factory fitted X51 kit, or does an X51 already have a similarly modded intake plenum?
The X51 does not have a similar IPD to the one fitted today. We would expect better results to those today(incremental) if it was fitted to a car with an X51 kit - it is one of these mods that works best with better headers, exhaust etc. Today was to show whether in isolation it was a worthwhile mod.
Interesting results.
Nice to see it makes a difference through the rev range. I would have liked to have seen one on a cable 3.4 though.
When you say you let the ECU adapt to it, did you unplug the battery and then do some pulls on the dyno before taking the figures? How was the car originally? Was that allowed an ECU reset and adaptation?
Keep the results coming!
Nice to see it makes a difference through the rev range. I would have liked to have seen one on a cable 3.4 though.
When you say you let the ECU adapt to it, did you unplug the battery and then do some pulls on the dyno before taking the figures? How was the car originally? Was that allowed an ECU reset and adaptation?
Keep the results coming!
dom9 said:
Interesting results.
Nice to see it makes a difference through the rev range. I would have liked to have seen one on a cable 3.4 though.
When you say you let the ECU adapt to it, did you unplug the battery and then do some pulls on the dyno before taking the figures? How was the car originally? Was that allowed an ECU reset and adaptation?
Keep the results coming!
Adaption was just by driving the car for a short period of time. Preferable to doing multiple dyno pulls. Nice to see it makes a difference through the rev range. I would have liked to have seen one on a cable 3.4 though.
When you say you let the ECU adapt to it, did you unplug the battery and then do some pulls on the dyno before taking the figures? How was the car originally? Was that allowed an ECU reset and adaptation?
Keep the results coming!
Second set of tests
We really wanted to do something a little more technical on this to support the findings from the dyno on Monday. Unfortunately weather was not good for testing in terms of vbox today so that will come in a few weeks when Mark let's us have the car back for the rest of the goodies he wants fitted.
In brief, we fitted his new radiator from Porsche as part of the x51 kit, std IPD, and then a mod to his intake sound which I will leave him to explain.
We concentrated on whether the IPD increases air flow. In simple terms, the Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor measures in kg per hour. Setting all other things aside such as volumetic efficiency (VE), intake temps, if the MAF value is higher, then you have more power, because you burn more fuel. For example on a standard 996 turbo MAF value is approx 1250-1280kg/hr on full boost. The 997 3.8 c2s today as a base ran around 900 kg/hr. So if you think that the turbo has 420hp, and the 997 has 355hp, the MAF reflects this. If you increase from 0.8 bar on a turbo to 1 bar boost, then the MAF value increases to 1350-1375kg. It is a simplistic approach but does have merit.
So what you would expect, is if the IPD is removing a restriction, then the MAF value should be higher. If you look back at the dyno sheet on the 3.6c4s in the thread, you can see that mid range torque (nm) was up by around 13nm. As also mentioned, when you fit these IPDs, you must allow sufficient time to allow them to adapt.I will let Mark comment on that himself - you can feel it adapt.
So the image below shows, RPM, the Base MAF figure, the adapt 1, the adapt 2. The adapt 1 and adapt 2 are the MAF values after the IPD was fitted, and reflect 10 minute intervals of driving. There is also a difference column as well.
We ran out of time tonight to do more testing and we will be retesting when the car is back in a few weeks. We will also be fitting the x51 manifolds and some other goodies.
In our opinion, the MAF values support the dyno charts from Monday. Moreover, looking at the yellow sections, throttle response is noticeable quicker which is reflected in the power feel.
The std IPD improves mid range response, hp & tq. For us, the important part is the increase in area under the power curve, not the peak hp. No point have 25hp for 100rpm - better and faster to have less hp, but over more of the curve.
We really wanted to do something a little more technical on this to support the findings from the dyno on Monday. Unfortunately weather was not good for testing in terms of vbox today so that will come in a few weeks when Mark let's us have the car back for the rest of the goodies he wants fitted.
In brief, we fitted his new radiator from Porsche as part of the x51 kit, std IPD, and then a mod to his intake sound which I will leave him to explain.
We concentrated on whether the IPD increases air flow. In simple terms, the Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor measures in kg per hour. Setting all other things aside such as volumetic efficiency (VE), intake temps, if the MAF value is higher, then you have more power, because you burn more fuel. For example on a standard 996 turbo MAF value is approx 1250-1280kg/hr on full boost. The 997 3.8 c2s today as a base ran around 900 kg/hr. So if you think that the turbo has 420hp, and the 997 has 355hp, the MAF reflects this. If you increase from 0.8 bar on a turbo to 1 bar boost, then the MAF value increases to 1350-1375kg. It is a simplistic approach but does have merit.
So what you would expect, is if the IPD is removing a restriction, then the MAF value should be higher. If you look back at the dyno sheet on the 3.6c4s in the thread, you can see that mid range torque (nm) was up by around 13nm. As also mentioned, when you fit these IPDs, you must allow sufficient time to allow them to adapt.I will let Mark comment on that himself - you can feel it adapt.
So the image below shows, RPM, the Base MAF figure, the adapt 1, the adapt 2. The adapt 1 and adapt 2 are the MAF values after the IPD was fitted, and reflect 10 minute intervals of driving. There is also a difference column as well.
We ran out of time tonight to do more testing and we will be retesting when the car is back in a few weeks. We will also be fitting the x51 manifolds and some other goodies.
In our opinion, the MAF values support the dyno charts from Monday. Moreover, looking at the yellow sections, throttle response is noticeable quicker which is reflected in the power feel.
The std IPD improves mid range response, hp & tq. For us, the important part is the increase in area under the power curve, not the peak hp. No point have 25hp for 100rpm - better and faster to have less hp, but over more of the curve.
mrdemon said:
I bought a lot of stuff from the USA to prove them wrong 4 years ago, as I thought claims were silly big.
I infact managed a 45BHp gain on my Cayman and it was great.
I don't get why UK tuning is so far behind, and people just want to resell stuff and not invest in tuning/testing.
The Cayman and Boxster can release loads of extra power and Torque. Not so sure about the 911's as I have never owned one.
Why no one resold the stuff I used seems crazy as the increase was amazing.
The issue is get more air in you need to get the air out and most new Porsche have 4 cats in the way.
You might get a 5 BHP gain from a IPD on it's own, you might get a 10BHp gain from removing the two rear cats on their own.
but do both and you might get a 25BHp gain over all as they work together to release the power.
AS for dyno you can put them where the sun don't shine imo, nice to get a base result and look at a curve to see where it changes over stock.
But what you want to know is , is it faster and the only way to test that is vbox it doing 3rd gear pulls.
you must have seem my results but all I fitted was a decat rear section, a bigger plenum and the GT3 throttle body, than a remap to tie it all in. but doing just 1 thing would have been not worth it, (bar the rear decat which is always worth it on a Porsche imo)
I could have got even more gains changing the headers/manafolds.
I look forward to your findings, better late than never :-), I am now thinking what I can do to my Porsche Spyder to get 350BHp :-)
which should give it a great BHP/ton figure.
Oh wow, still with the dyno chart that lops off all the essential data at the bottom! Have you not got that part?I infact managed a 45BHp gain on my Cayman and it was great.
I don't get why UK tuning is so far behind, and people just want to resell stuff and not invest in tuning/testing.
The Cayman and Boxster can release loads of extra power and Torque. Not so sure about the 911's as I have never owned one.
Why no one resold the stuff I used seems crazy as the increase was amazing.
The issue is get more air in you need to get the air out and most new Porsche have 4 cats in the way.
You might get a 5 BHP gain from a IPD on it's own, you might get a 10BHp gain from removing the two rear cats on their own.
but do both and you might get a 25BHp gain over all as they work together to release the power.
AS for dyno you can put them where the sun don't shine imo, nice to get a base result and look at a curve to see where it changes over stock.
But what you want to know is , is it faster and the only way to test that is vbox it doing 3rd gear pulls.
you must have seem my results but all I fitted was a decat rear section, a bigger plenum and the GT3 throttle body, than a remap to tie it all in. but doing just 1 thing would have been not worth it, (bar the rear decat which is always worth it on a Porsche imo)
I could have got even more gains changing the headers/manafolds.
I look forward to your findings, better late than never :-), I am now thinking what I can do to my Porsche Spyder to get 350BHp :-)
which should give it a great BHP/ton figure.
Edited by mrdemon on Wednesday 18th January 12:54
I'll dig it out for you, nothing to hide, the place where I had it dyno did not even know I had any thing done to the car, it's was a 3rd party test, with a week inbetween.
over 1000 Caymans Have the same mods with this sort of power, it's tried and tested.
My Spyder will get the same which will give it a better BHp/ton than your 996RS and with the engine in the right place, you will be free to look at it from behind on track :-)
over 1000 Caymans Have the same mods with this sort of power, it's tried and tested.
My Spyder will get the same which will give it a better BHp/ton than your 996RS and with the engine in the right place, you will be free to look at it from behind on track :-)
mrdemon said:
I'll dig it out for you, nothing to hide, the place where I had it dyno did not even know I had any thing done to the car, it's was a 3rd party test, with a week inbetween.
over 1000 Caymans Have the same mods with this sort of power, it's tried and tested.
My Spyder will get the same which will give it a better BHp/ton than your 996RS and with the engine in the right place, you will be free to look at it from behind on track :-)
We never had any doubt that they worked - had one on my turbo for 4 years I think. The main issues that we can see for not getting results is either poor fitment, poor MAF, or not allowing adaption to take place and any combination of those. We suspect that part of the reason that dyno does not always show results, is that you dyno base (3 or 4 runs), fit the IPD, then re dyno, and the engine gets hot in order to give enough time to adapt, and performance tails off. over 1000 Caymans Have the same mods with this sort of power, it's tried and tested.
My Spyder will get the same which will give it a better BHp/ton than your 996RS and with the engine in the right place, you will be free to look at it from behind on track :-)
Seems a good product, especially when added to other mods.
So today I went down to see Ken at Nine Excellence and I have to say that his operation was chock full of nice cars to look at: Turbos, GT3's, various RS's, GT2's, not to mention a parts store that was pure automotive porn! Also I was very impressed with everyone's knowledge and painstaking attention to detail!
So they fiited my new centre radiator, the IPD, fixed my loose exhaust tips (thanks James) and after we had done the Vbox testing, the cold air kit too! The IPD produces a discernable improvement in mid range torque and certainly a little bit at the top end, but one of the main (surprise) beneits was that it sounds much better. More induction snort and a louder howl over 5,000rpm! However as Ken says, once everything was fitted, the traffic was just too heavy to give the car some full power runs (and serious leptons) to bed it in and test it, so I'm going to take it back again once it's had another week for the ECU to learn!
On the next visit I'm going to have the X51 manifolds fitted, some new discs and pads all round, and some super sexy RSS lower arms / rear control arms (to dial out the bump steer) as I couldn't help myself! A full geometry reset should finish things off for this month! Phew!
Anyway, I thought you all might like to see some pics of the operation:
MM.
So they fiited my new centre radiator, the IPD, fixed my loose exhaust tips (thanks James) and after we had done the Vbox testing, the cold air kit too! The IPD produces a discernable improvement in mid range torque and certainly a little bit at the top end, but one of the main (surprise) beneits was that it sounds much better. More induction snort and a louder howl over 5,000rpm! However as Ken says, once everything was fitted, the traffic was just too heavy to give the car some full power runs (and serious leptons) to bed it in and test it, so I'm going to take it back again once it's had another week for the ECU to learn!
On the next visit I'm going to have the X51 manifolds fitted, some new discs and pads all round, and some super sexy RSS lower arms / rear control arms (to dial out the bump steer) as I couldn't help myself! A full geometry reset should finish things off for this month! Phew!
Anyway, I thought you all might like to see some pics of the operation:
MM.
EvoSlayer said:
MadMark911 said:
O/T, Keep up the good work Ken,...is yours back in one piece yet?
Body kit is finished
Wiper delete
All sound deadening removed
Cup rear screen - very light
Custom cage
To fit.
3.8 clubsport pistons and liners
Motorsport pump
Custom gaskets for high boost
Raceware studs
All pipework where possible welded instead of bonding
Completely custom fuel system - rated to 1200whp - so we never have to do it again, in case for some strange reason I want more power
Custom (and I mean custom
) garrett turbos which have been flow tested to 600hp each @ 1.7 bar and can be run at 2 bar.Custom headers with external WGs (48mm) with screamer pipes
Custom exhaust with true 3 inch all the way through
Full RSS Tarmac Series
PSS10
.....cannot remember the rest but plenty more.
Still got to sort out wheels and rubber, had a few offers on that so will have to think , and will probably have to get some custom work done on the screamer pipes to feed into the exhaust for track days...might be a tad loud otherwise.
Cannot wait to drive it as you can imagine.
And of course it already has an IPD...lol
Ken
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