IPDs - do they work on N/A - let's find out
Discussion
Just to add to this thread, I brought the car into work today (as I haven't driven it since Wednesday) and it's "adjusted" again ....
The power delivery is now much smoother across the whole rev range but whereas it used to become "increasingly urgent" only once 5,000rpm was exceeded (before the IPD); now anything above 4,250rpm provides what feels like the same effect.
In conclusion it feels like it provides more mid range torque (so 3-4,000 rpm is sufficient to make swift progress) and gets into the power curve slightly earlier when you summon the full beans. And yes I love the induction howl / resonance when on full load at high rpm ...
Very happy bunny!
The power delivery is now much smoother across the whole rev range but whereas it used to become "increasingly urgent" only once 5,000rpm was exceeded (before the IPD); now anything above 4,250rpm provides what feels like the same effect.
In conclusion it feels like it provides more mid range torque (so 3-4,000 rpm is sufficient to make swift progress) and gets into the power curve slightly earlier when you summon the full beans. And yes I love the induction howl / resonance when on full load at high rpm ...
Very happy bunny!
MadMark911 said:
It might not produce huge power gains at the top end
But that is the issue here, the IPD sets its stall out on the fact it brings an extra 25BHP and 22 torques but it doesn't deliver on either, I wouldn't be happy after forking out £600+fitting for something that doesnt work as described on the tin. If you ordered a 50" TV and got a 32" surely you would be mega miffed and send it straight back?disco1 said:
But that is the issue here, the IPD sets its stall out on the fact it brings an extra 25BHP and 22 torques but it doesn't deliver on either, I wouldn't be happy after forking out £600+fitting for something that doesnt work as described on the tin. If you ordered a 50" TV and got a 32" surely you would be mega miffed and send it straight back?
My interpretation was that they claimed the numbers you describe in the upper midrange (circa 5,750rpm), with probably 5-10bhp at the top end of a 997 C2S's power curve (link below). That's how it feels. Click for the dyno charts
disco1 said:
MadMark911 said:
It might not produce huge power gains at the top end
But that is the issue here, the IPD sets its stall out on the fact it brings an extra 25BHP and 22 torques but it doesn't deliver on either, I wouldn't be happy after forking out £600+fitting for something that doesnt work as described on the tin. If you ordered a 50" TV and got a 32" surely you would be mega miffed and send it straight back?IPD got those increases on their dyno with other 200 independent persons present on 5 different cars. But that dyno is different to the one that we tested on, correction factors and so on. They didn't make up the dyno charts you know.
So they are not advertising incorrect information - it was their testing, their results.
You have to get past this headline bhp figure of 4hp. Remember that 996 only made 309hp after many runs as a baseline. It should have made 320hp. Anything such as plugs for example can affect the output. The MAF was fine.
Looking at the 3.6 dyno, the mid range increase of 10hp/13nm tq on a car that was not performing to specification is a big increase, and bear in mind that on that test, we had to stop the dyno because the car was starting to heat soak. Maybe running it today would produce a better figure...I suspect it would.
Regardless, the point should not be peak hp. I don't want to bore you with calculations of area under the curve power, which essentially can derive from two separate dyno charts which car has better performance, but
the car is quicker and those are the facts.
On the 3.8 c2s (Mark's car) we gained nearly 10% more air flow at midrange on a car that makes 355hp. Even if it was making say 250hp at 4000 rpm, that is 20hp approx. And Mark has just stated today from Wednesday session that it has adjusted again - which we will rerun the MAF test when his car is back in a few weeks.
On a turbo car, the gains are considerable because the increase in airflow is more significant.
The bottom line is that both cars have a good mid range increase in tq. Remember these are std IPDs, which are designed to provide mid range, not top end.
The fact is that they work. I don't think anyone can dispute that. After all that was the purpose of the exercise.
Is there another product that gives this performance on n/a pound for pound?
Ken
disco1 said:
I think my hat is very safe, only 4BHP extra 
Whatever happened to the 25BHP it claimed to bring?
If you looks at what the IPD's deliver's, there are two types, one for top end power (the large ones coupled with a bigger throttle body), with the smaller ones (OEM throttle body size)increasing the mid range increase. If you want to "absolute power" i.e. top end power may go for the bigger one with a bigger throttle body.Whatever happened to the 25BHP it claimed to bring?
The point of this thread was to see what happens in the real world, i.e. driveability, and to back this up with some dyno figures, as some people only believe what they see on a dyno graph. This thread is based on the mid range power IPD, which I think the OP is stating it has delivered.
If you think of flow restrictions, being that the more flow of air the N/A engines get the more power they deliver, then if you increase the input, you 'might' then have a restriction in the output. Hence, the X51 manifolds, and free flowing CAT exhaust might again add more power to the curve; for this we will have to wait and see.
What Nine Excellence have done with the help of their customers and the PH massive, is bring all this information in an un-bias form for you all to see.
End of the day, you will have to make your own mind up if the IPD is a upgrade that is for you, hopefully this thread should help you decide.
Mr F
Mr Freefall said:
If you looks at what the IPD's deliver's, there are two types, one for top end power (the large ones coupled with a bigger throttle body), with the smaller ones (OEM throttle body size)increasing the mid range increase. If you want to "absolute power" i.e. top end power may go for the bigger one with a bigger throttle body.
The point of this thread was to see what happens in the real world, i.e. driveability, and to back this up with some dyno figures, as some people only believe what they see on a dyno graph. This thread is based on the mid range power IPD, which I think the OP is stating it has delivered.
If you think of flow restrictions, being that the more flow of air the N/A engines get the more power they deliver, then if you increase the input, you 'might' then have a restriction in the output. Hence, the X51 manifolds, and free flowing CAT exhaust might again add more power to the curve; for this we will have to wait and see.
What Nine Excellence have done with the help of their customers and the PH massive, is bring all this information in an un-bias form for you all to see.
End of the day, you will have to make your own mind up if the IPD is a upgrade that is for you, hopefully this thread should help you decide.
Mr F
I agree. A very informed response and actually until we did this test - we had no real idea of exactly how it would turn out. The US dyno charts give clues as to what's possible - but that's no substitute to driving the car with the mods in place! The subjective driving experience is how we make assessments / judgements on cars - not normally on dyno results. The point of this thread was to see what happens in the real world, i.e. driveability, and to back this up with some dyno figures, as some people only believe what they see on a dyno graph. This thread is based on the mid range power IPD, which I think the OP is stating it has delivered.
If you think of flow restrictions, being that the more flow of air the N/A engines get the more power they deliver, then if you increase the input, you 'might' then have a restriction in the output. Hence, the X51 manifolds, and free flowing CAT exhaust might again add more power to the curve; for this we will have to wait and see.
What Nine Excellence have done with the help of their customers and the PH massive, is bring all this information in an un-bias form for you all to see.
End of the day, you will have to make your own mind up if the IPD is a upgrade that is for you, hopefully this thread should help you decide.
Mr F
At the end of the day I'm just a customer who wanted a bit more power / torque and both IPD and Nine Excellence answered that clarion call. In fact they've all bent over backwards to ensure that I'm happy whilst gaining some (very) independent comments / assessment and test data to substantiate the subjective. (Oh and I told Ken what I could feel, long before he showed me the data).
In terms of £ / bhp - if the IPD adds 15-20hp in the midrange, I don't think £30-40 per bhp is too bad in the world of naturally aspirated Porsches as lets's face it - the obligatory BMC panel filter costs around £70 and probably only produces a couple of bhp (but much better throttle response), so thats £35/bhp.
A remap typically costs £750 and delivers 10-15bhp - so that's £50-75/bhp.
My X51 Manifolds cost £780 (inc vat and discount) and should deliver 8-10 bhp over a wide rev range, so that's £78-98/bhp!!
When I looked at Sports Cats (200 Cell), most offer 8-10bhp incrementally, but are typically around £1,200, so that's even worse at £120-150/bhp!!!
Or am I wrong?
MM.
Edited to correct typo!
Edited by MadMark911 on Friday 9th March 13:58
MadMark911 said:
I agree. A very informed response and actually until we did this test - we had no real idea of exactly how it would turn out. The US dyno charts give clues as to what's possible - but that's no substitute to driving the car with the mods in place! The subjective driving experience is how we make assessments / judgements on cars - not normally on dyno results.
At the end of the day I'm just a customer who wanted a bit more power / torque and both IPD and Nine Excellence answered that clarion call. In fact they've all bent over backwards to ensure that I'm happy whilst gaining some (very) independent comments / assessment and test data to substantiate the subjective. (Oh and I told Ken what I could feel, long before he showed me the data).
In terms of £ / bhp - if the IPD adds 15-20hp in the midrange, I don't think £40-60 per bhp is too bad in the world of naturally aspirated Porsches as lets's face it - the obligatory BMC panel filter costs around £70 and probably only produces a couple of bhp (but much better throttle response), so thats £35/bhp.
A remap typically costs £750 and delivers 10-15bhp - sot that's £50-75/bhp.
My X51 Manifolds cost £780 (inc vat and discount) and should deliver 8-10 bhp over a wide rev range, so that's £78-98/bhp!!
When I looked at Sports Cats (200 Cell), most offer 8-10bhp incrementally, but are typically around £1,200, so that's even worse at £120-150/bhp!!!
Or am I wrong?
MM.
So does that mean the IPD fitted was 15x60 or 20x80 =800/900 quid?At the end of the day I'm just a customer who wanted a bit more power / torque and both IPD and Nine Excellence answered that clarion call. In fact they've all bent over backwards to ensure that I'm happy whilst gaining some (very) independent comments / assessment and test data to substantiate the subjective. (Oh and I told Ken what I could feel, long before he showed me the data).
In terms of £ / bhp - if the IPD adds 15-20hp in the midrange, I don't think £40-60 per bhp is too bad in the world of naturally aspirated Porsches as lets's face it - the obligatory BMC panel filter costs around £70 and probably only produces a couple of bhp (but much better throttle response), so thats £35/bhp.
A remap typically costs £750 and delivers 10-15bhp - sot that's £50-75/bhp.
My X51 Manifolds cost £780 (inc vat and discount) and should deliver 8-10 bhp over a wide rev range, so that's £78-98/bhp!!
When I looked at Sports Cats (200 Cell), most offer 8-10bhp incrementally, but are typically around £1,200, so that's even worse at £120-150/bhp!!!
Or am I wrong?
MM.
F3RNANDO said:
MadMark911 said:
I agree. A very informed response and actually until we did this test - we had no real idea of exactly how it would turn out. The US dyno charts give clues as to what's possible - but that's no substitute to driving the car with the mods in place! The subjective driving experience is how we make assessments / judgements on cars - not normally on dyno results.
At the end of the day I'm just a customer who wanted a bit more power / torque and both IPD and Nine Excellence answered that clarion call. In fact they've all bent over backwards to ensure that I'm happy whilst gaining some (very) independent comments / assessment and test data to substantiate the subjective. (Oh and I told Ken what I could feel, long before he showed me the data).
In terms of £ / bhp - if the IPD adds 15-20hp in the midrange, I don't think £40-60 per bhp is too bad in the world of naturally aspirated Porsches as lets's face it - the obligatory BMC panel filter costs around £70 and probably only produces a couple of bhp (but much better throttle response), so thats £35/bhp.
A remap typically costs £750 and delivers 10-15bhp - sot that's £50-75/bhp.
My X51 Manifolds cost £780 (inc vat and discount) and should deliver 8-10 bhp over a wide rev range, so that's £78-98/bhp!!
When I looked at Sports Cats (200 Cell), most offer 8-10bhp incrementally, but are typically around £1,200, so that's even worse at £120-150/bhp!!!
Or am I wrong?
MM.
So does that mean the IPD fitted was 15x60 or 20x80 =800/900 quid?At the end of the day I'm just a customer who wanted a bit more power / torque and both IPD and Nine Excellence answered that clarion call. In fact they've all bent over backwards to ensure that I'm happy whilst gaining some (very) independent comments / assessment and test data to substantiate the subjective. (Oh and I told Ken what I could feel, long before he showed me the data).
In terms of £ / bhp - if the IPD adds 15-20hp in the midrange, I don't think £40-60 per bhp is too bad in the world of naturally aspirated Porsches as lets's face it - the obligatory BMC panel filter costs around £70 and probably only produces a couple of bhp (but much better throttle response), so thats £35/bhp.
A remap typically costs £750 and delivers 10-15bhp - sot that's £50-75/bhp.
My X51 Manifolds cost £780 (inc vat and discount) and should deliver 8-10 bhp over a wide rev range, so that's £78-98/bhp!!
When I looked at Sports Cats (200 Cell), most offer 8-10bhp incrementally, but are typically around £1,200, so that's even worse at £120-150/bhp!!!
Or am I wrong?
MM.
F3RNANDO said:
MadMark911 said:
I agree. A very informed response and actually until we did this test - we had no real idea of exactly how it would turn out. The US dyno charts give clues as to what's possible - but that's no substitute to driving the car with the mods in place! The subjective driving experience is how we make assessments / judgements on cars - not normally on dyno results.
At the end of the day I'm just a customer who wanted a bit more power / torque and both IPD and Nine Excellence answered that clarion call. In fact they've all bent over backwards to ensure that I'm happy whilst gaining some (very) independent comments / assessment and test data to substantiate the subjective. (Oh and I told Ken what I could feel, long before he showed me the data).
In terms of £ / bhp - if the IPD adds 15-20hp in the midrange, I don't think £30-40 per bhp is too bad in the world of naturally aspirated Porsches as lets's face it - the obligatory BMC panel filter costs around £70 and probably only produces a couple of bhp (but much better throttle response), so thats £35/bhp.
A remap typically costs £750 and delivers 10-15bhp - so that's £50-75/bhp.
My X51 Manifolds cost £780 (inc vat and discount) and should deliver 8-10 bhp over a wide rev range, so that's £78-98/bhp!!
When I looked at Sports Cats (200 Cell), most offer 8-10bhp incrementally, but are typically around £1,200, so that's even worse at £120-150/bhp!!!
Or am I wrong?
MM.
So does that mean the IPD fitted was 15x60 or 20x80 =800/900 quid?At the end of the day I'm just a customer who wanted a bit more power / torque and both IPD and Nine Excellence answered that clarion call. In fact they've all bent over backwards to ensure that I'm happy whilst gaining some (very) independent comments / assessment and test data to substantiate the subjective. (Oh and I told Ken what I could feel, long before he showed me the data).
In terms of £ / bhp - if the IPD adds 15-20hp in the midrange, I don't think £30-40 per bhp is too bad in the world of naturally aspirated Porsches as lets's face it - the obligatory BMC panel filter costs around £70 and probably only produces a couple of bhp (but much better throttle response), so thats £35/bhp.
A remap typically costs £750 and delivers 10-15bhp - so that's £50-75/bhp.
My X51 Manifolds cost £780 (inc vat and discount) and should deliver 8-10 bhp over a wide rev range, so that's £78-98/bhp!!
When I looked at Sports Cats (200 Cell), most offer 8-10bhp incrementally, but are typically around £1,200, so that's even worse at £120-150/bhp!!!
Or am I wrong?
MM.
I think they retail at £595 (or £600) and it's not difficult to fit, so I think most competent individuals would do it on a DIY basis!
Edited by MadMark911 on Friday 9th March 14:05
with pricing. 996ttalot said:
In brief, we fitted his new radiator from Porsche as part of the x51 kit, std IPD, and then a mod to his intake sound which I will leave him to explain.
MadMark911 said:
The IPD produces a discernable improvement in mid range.....but one of the main (surprise) beneits was that it sounds much better. More induction snort and a louder howl over 5,000rpm!
Are you perhaps referring to the mod Mark? Out of curiosity, what was it?Popolou said:
996ttalot said:
In brief, we fitted his new radiator from Porsche as part of the x51 kit, std IPD, and then a mod to his intake sound which I will leave him to explain.
MadMark911 said:
The IPD produces a discernable improvement in mid range.....but one of the main (surprise) beneits was that it sounds much better. More induction snort and a louder howl over 5,000rpm!
Are you perhaps referring to the mod Mark? Out of curiosity, what was it?Thinking about it - it could be either product that produces the additional induction snort / howl, but I reckon it's a combination of the two. It appears that the resonator is there to reduce a harmonic resonance at high rpm (so it now sounds a bit GT3), but there is a better noise everywhere that you're "on" the throttle!
Pic below of new hose / IPD in place:
As standard it looks like this:
Edited by MadMark911 on Friday 9th March 16:19
Well thanks for all this info. My view is that IPDs might or might not work, but the gain is minimal. I posted some time ago some results from a forumer at boxa.net - he got a peak gain of 19bhp from IPD, manifold and full exhaust, ECU reflash, underdrive pulley and air intake.
For my car, I did the "Cargraphic" power kit mod of back box, reflash, air filter and IPD and subjectively the car felt no faster as a result. I then got 2oo cell cats fitted plus a new oxygen filter and the car's performance improved substantially. My point is that other things can perform below par and just replacing old parts (in this case, toasted cats and sensor) can work wonders.
If anyone wants to drive my car, which is a 24,000 mile 986S, or dyno it, please send me a PM (Dorset). By the way, the Cargraphic exhaust sounds sensational - 1bhp extra or not!
For my car, I did the "Cargraphic" power kit mod of back box, reflash, air filter and IPD and subjectively the car felt no faster as a result. I then got 2oo cell cats fitted plus a new oxygen filter and the car's performance improved substantially. My point is that other things can perform below par and just replacing old parts (in this case, toasted cats and sensor) can work wonders.
If anyone wants to drive my car, which is a 24,000 mile 986S, or dyno it, please send me a PM (Dorset). By the way, the Cargraphic exhaust sounds sensational - 1bhp extra or not!
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