GT3 / 3RS / Touring
Discussion
CorrosionInhibitor said:
Re 991.2rs and your pricing point, these guys have a .2rs with 7 or 8k miles and good spec at £165k.
https://www.supercarsourcing.com/
Either I'm being thick or there's something else going on. That's the second time someone's said that, but I can't see a 3RS in their stock listing.https://www.supercarsourcing.com/
isaldiri said:
Tbh OP it sounds like you'll only really be happy with the .2rs as you'd always hanker for one if you got something else that's theoretically 'inferior' like the .1rs or .2gt3.....
Yep. That is rather how the inside of my head works. I can rule out things I'm not prepared to afford, like the GT2RS, but making "sensible" downgrade decisions isn't really my thing. Which is idiotic since I know perfectly well that a .1 3RS is all the car I need (in fact, so I suspect is a plain .2 GT3).I keep hoping that one day I'll learn.
964Cup said:
CorrosionInhibitor said:
Re 991.2rs and your pricing point, these guys have a .2rs with 7 or 8k miles and good spec at £165k.
https://www.supercarsourcing.com/
Either I'm being thick or there's something else going on. That's the second time someone's said that, but I can't see a 3RS in their stock listing.https://www.supercarsourcing.com/
CorrosionInhibitor said:
Ah. Social media. No wonder I didn't see it. I only do antisocial media, like PH. I'll call them on Monday. Ta.Tripe Bypass said:
Just the minor issue that about 80% of the difference in performance comes from it being on slicks. Not something you will get away with for very long on this side of the pond.AIUI the big difference with the .2 RS is that they moved the centre of pressure for the aero forward, which is one reason why it has a better front end and more progressive handling balance. Even with the Cup front PU, splitter and dive planes I think that car is likely to have the 60% rear bias to the aero that is common to the Cup and .1.
Also, Americans. Race car for the road blah blah - but it's got 14-way sports seats. Eh?
964Cup said:
AIUI the big difference with the .2 RS is that they moved the centre of pressure for the aero forward, which is one reason why it has a better front end and more progressive handling balance. Even with the Cup front PU, splitter and dive planes I think that car is likely to have the 60% rear bias to the aero that is common to the Cup and .1.
Oh cmon that's all marketing guff and nonsense about aero. CoP of downforce change isn't going to be anything significant on a road car that weighs 1500-ish kg. The idea it's responsible for a major handling change on the .2 Vs the .1 is laughable. You want slightly rear biased downforce anyway rather than front I can assure you any race engineer will mention as high speed oversteer isn't particularly desirable a trait.isaldiri said:
Oh cmon that's all marketing guff and nonsense about aero. CoP of downforce change isn't going to be anything significant on a road car that weighs 1500-ish kg. The idea it's responsible for a major handling change on the .2 Vs the .1 is laughable. You want slightly rear biased downforce anyway rather than front I can assure you any race engineer will mention as high speed oversteer isn't particularly desirable a trait.
I did say I haven't driven either. The line comes, amongst others, from Randy Pobst.It's entirely a psychological problem, and only because I can afford any of the cars I listed earlier - I'm not worried that the GT2RS is faster because I'm not in the market for a £300k car.
It's one reason to look at the Lotus - not just because it's cheap, but because it's the latest & greatest of that series. If I buy a .1 I'll always wonder if a .2 would have been faster, even though obviously it'll be me, not the car, that's the limiting factor. If I'd done less research, I'd doubtless have bought the .1 I first thought of and been happy...
964Cup said:
Just the minor issue that about 80% of the difference in performance comes from it being on slicks. Not something you will get away with for very long on this side of the pond.
AIUI the big difference with the .2 RS is that they moved the centre of pressure for the aero forward, which is one reason why it has a better front end and more progressive handling balance. Even with the Cup front PU, splitter and dive planes I think that car is likely to have the 60% rear bias to the aero that is common to the Cup and .1.
Also, Americans. Race car for the road blah blah - but it's got 14-way sports seats. Eh?
In later vids it's on Trofeo Rs and fitted with proper buckets.AIUI the big difference with the .2 RS is that they moved the centre of pressure for the aero forward, which is one reason why it has a better front end and more progressive handling balance. Even with the Cup front PU, splitter and dive planes I think that car is likely to have the 60% rear bias to the aero that is common to the Cup and .1.
Also, Americans. Race car for the road blah blah - but it's got 14-way sports seats. Eh?
Hokay. So. Progress. Of a sort.
I have homed in on a .1 GT3RS. I have, in fact, found three that fit the bill:
LHD, in the UK, 12k miles, KW V3 and ST discs, independent dealer and warranty.
RHD, in the UK, 9k miles, stock, OPC + 2 year Porsche warranty.
LHD, in Germany, 7k miles, stock, independent dealer but Porsche warranty for a year.
They all have the key bits (lift, chairs, PCCB); the RHD needs a cruise retrofit (which won't happen in time, I should think); the German car has mad spex (original invoice over 200k EUR); the UK left-hooker's previous owner went a bit mad at Techart so all the exterior plastic parts are now CF at vast (but resale-pointless) expense, and it also has the aforementioned trick but road-unfriendly suspension and supposedly more durable brakes. It can be had with some mentalist exhaust that I suspect makes an already loud car very much louder for people who like that kind of thing.
They are all the same colour. Not telling. Have to keep some kind of surprise in reserve.
I have the option to go to Spa for two days next week Thursday and Friday.
However, in addition to putting up with a lot of footling rules about facemasks and [karen]social distancing[/karen], I also have to buy and take delivery of the car in time. And gamble that the UK won't make my life difficult with quarantine rules on the way back in (especially if I'm in a car on German plates...)
I can:
1. Buy the UK left-hooker. It's clearly the best set up for my intended use, but the worst set up for getting to Spa. amongst other things this version of the KW kit disables the nose lift and it'll need significant geometry changes to make it driveable over that kind of distance - which will mean a completely unknown setup when I get there. I also won't get a Porsche warranty (unless I return the car to standard - I get the parts with the car, but the labour won't be free... - and do the 111-point check and pay for it). The car can be ready in time and I do trust the supplying dealer.
2. Buy the UK right-hooker. No 90 litre tank but full UK OPC support. About the same money as car #1. Can probably be ready in time, but it would help if the dealer actually answered the phone. And no cruise for a long motorway drive across the most boring country in Europe. Feh.
3. Buy the German car, sight unseen. Wire them the money tomorrow to give time for the paperwork. The car is apparently on the button and ready to go. Then fly to Germany on Tuesday night, pick the car up on Wednesday morning and drive 700km to Spa. This feels slightly mad, but quite fun, and the car is about £15k cheaper than the other two.
4. Skip Spa on the grounds that it will be less fun with all the social elements hamstrung by karen-panic, take a breath and sort a car out in time for the next booking which is in September. But where's the fun in that?
Normally I'd go for #3 as a no-brainer - because cheaper, and lower mileage, and spec etc - but travel is somewhat more fraught than it used to be and therefore I have no chance to see the car (or more importantly, assess the dealer) first. In other circumstances I would of course just do a day-trip to the Fatherland, see the car, pay for it, fly home again and then return to pick it up. But during [karen]coronavirus[/karen] there are no direct flights from London (seriously - how absurd is that?), and it's all a bit of a massive pain in the 'arris.
So, in the spirit of this thread, WWYD?
I have homed in on a .1 GT3RS. I have, in fact, found three that fit the bill:
LHD, in the UK, 12k miles, KW V3 and ST discs, independent dealer and warranty.
RHD, in the UK, 9k miles, stock, OPC + 2 year Porsche warranty.
LHD, in Germany, 7k miles, stock, independent dealer but Porsche warranty for a year.
They all have the key bits (lift, chairs, PCCB); the RHD needs a cruise retrofit (which won't happen in time, I should think); the German car has mad spex (original invoice over 200k EUR); the UK left-hooker's previous owner went a bit mad at Techart so all the exterior plastic parts are now CF at vast (but resale-pointless) expense, and it also has the aforementioned trick but road-unfriendly suspension and supposedly more durable brakes. It can be had with some mentalist exhaust that I suspect makes an already loud car very much louder for people who like that kind of thing.
They are all the same colour. Not telling. Have to keep some kind of surprise in reserve.
I have the option to go to Spa for two days next week Thursday and Friday.
However, in addition to putting up with a lot of footling rules about facemasks and [karen]social distancing[/karen], I also have to buy and take delivery of the car in time. And gamble that the UK won't make my life difficult with quarantine rules on the way back in (especially if I'm in a car on German plates...)
I can:
1. Buy the UK left-hooker. It's clearly the best set up for my intended use, but the worst set up for getting to Spa. amongst other things this version of the KW kit disables the nose lift and it'll need significant geometry changes to make it driveable over that kind of distance - which will mean a completely unknown setup when I get there. I also won't get a Porsche warranty (unless I return the car to standard - I get the parts with the car, but the labour won't be free... - and do the 111-point check and pay for it). The car can be ready in time and I do trust the supplying dealer.
2. Buy the UK right-hooker. No 90 litre tank but full UK OPC support. About the same money as car #1. Can probably be ready in time, but it would help if the dealer actually answered the phone. And no cruise for a long motorway drive across the most boring country in Europe. Feh.
3. Buy the German car, sight unseen. Wire them the money tomorrow to give time for the paperwork. The car is apparently on the button and ready to go. Then fly to Germany on Tuesday night, pick the car up on Wednesday morning and drive 700km to Spa. This feels slightly mad, but quite fun, and the car is about £15k cheaper than the other two.
4. Skip Spa on the grounds that it will be less fun with all the social elements hamstrung by karen-panic, take a breath and sort a car out in time for the next booking which is in September. But where's the fun in that?
Normally I'd go for #3 as a no-brainer - because cheaper, and lower mileage, and spec etc - but travel is somewhat more fraught than it used to be and therefore I have no chance to see the car (or more importantly, assess the dealer) first. In other circumstances I would of course just do a day-trip to the Fatherland, see the car, pay for it, fly home again and then return to pick it up. But during [karen]coronavirus[/karen] there are no direct flights from London (seriously - how absurd is that?), and it's all a bit of a massive pain in the 'arris.
So, in the spirit of this thread, WWYD?
footsoldier said:
Don’t know what I’d do, but I had full KW (Manthey) set up on Gt2RS and it was no issue to drive to Spa (from Scotland...). Made the odd squeaking noise, but that’s it.
I've not seen the car yet, but it's apparently about 3mm off the road and has so much toe it looks cross-eyed; the dealer is pretty adamant it will need changing to avoid it eating its tyres on the way there, if nothing else. I also need to be able to navigate speed humps, since I live in London. So that means raising the ride height, changing the toe, and trusting that the setup will work with no chance to test it (apart, perhaps, from a brief blat around the UK countryside, which doesn't strike me as an ideal proving ground). Something of an act of faith, at least.I hear very good things about the Manthey kit (they did this car) but I'd originally planned to go with a standard car at least until I'd found the ultimate limit of the stock suspension.
Just to give you a bit of steer - price wise. I just sold my GT3 RS, LHD, 10.000 km 2016, full list of extras incl PCCB, full leather, lift and carbon inserts. I sold it through Porsche Center Munich at asking price EUR 168k which priced it as pretty much as the cheapest PCCB equipped car in the network. I gave a small discount to 165k and it needed a big service ( app EUR 2k ) which i split with Porsche - so net net 164k (including Porsche’s fee) for a mint 10k km LHD car. It sold quickly (within a week) and there were 3 interested parties. Since then I have the impression that more have come on the market, but there is definitely demand at that level. Wonderful car all together, but i never used it preferring my 997 GT3 RS 4.0 as the more “raw” experience when i had the time. Good luck hunting and i would definitely take it on the track as that is where it excels. Plan Spa and N-Ring and you’ll have a great time.
i know it sounds a bit dull and not in the spirit of this thread, but i'd probably go with option 4....allows you time to plan the Spa trip, get a hotel sorted for Nordschiefe the day before as well, make a proper trip of it and choose the right steed of course.
i am doing the RMA day in September, in my touring (below).
i am doing the RMA day in September, in my touring (below).
964Cup said:
... the UK left-hooker ... has the aforementioned trick but road-unfriendly suspension and supposedly more durable brakes.
It's the set-up that is road-unfriendly not the KW kit as such. Get the set-up sorted and you have a fantastic car. If you have not tracked a 1.1 RS yet then the set-up will in any case be new to you. If you have an experienced engineer who knows your driving style to do the set-up, you should be fineDr S said:
If you have an experienced engineer who knows your driving style to do the set-up,
yep with all carry one of those about we us !!I am sure PH is another world from normal. :-)
he should still get a manual though, I really don't get lapping automatic road cars.
May as well not buy a car and just have a few passenger laps, it will be the same involvement :-p and you save £150k
Porsche911R said:
Dr S said:
If you have an experienced engineer who knows your driving style to do the set-up,
yep with all carry one of those about we us !!I am sure PH is another world from normal. :-)
he should still get a manual though, I really don't get lapping automatic road cars.
May as well not buy a car and just have a few passenger laps, it will be the same involvement :-p and you save £150k
Dr S said:
The OP has been racing in the past. So it's not unlikely that he knows an experienced engineer who could be helpful
It's a good point. Actually I'm no longer in touch with the chap that used to run my race car (Neil Bainbridge at BS Motorsport) but RPM did the setup for my 964RS and that worked well, so I'd be fairly comfortable with them having a stab at it. The issue is twofold:1) no chance to validate the setup beforehand at all (because I've ended up in a badly-planned rush) and no real way to adjust it while I'm at Spa; I won't have tools or, frankly, knowledge and I can't do what I'd normally do and try to beg/borrow/schmooze/buy some help out of someone else's engineers because of [karen]coronavirus[/karen].
2) I know the KW suspension is good in principle. But my experience of adjustable suspension is that if you get the set up wrong the car can be undriveably bad (go on, ask me how I know). Probably the engineer will do a good job on a compromise set up, and let's be clear that since I'll also be learning the car (and trying to remember which way Spa goes round - I've not been there in a car for 20 years, I think - although I cycled past it in 2017...) I'm not going to be looking for the last couple of tenths. I just don't want to spend two days dealing with terminal understeer or snap oversteer or wheel hop or any of the other hilarious issues I've previously experienced.
So the right answer would be wait, book a day at Bedford or Mallory or somewhere else cheap (if those places still are), go down with support, get the car set up and then do Spa. Since I can't do that, I'm attracted to a stock set up because although it won't ultimately be as fast as the KW when fully configured, it will have good handling balance out of the box.
Of course there's also option 5 - take the 964RS. Perhaps I should do that, use the opportunity to remember how frightening Eau Rouge is, and then sort out a faster car for September. Of course that would be sensible, and I don't really do sensible.
964Cup said:
Of course that would be sensible, and I don't really do sensible.
I like your style 
You have had some bad experiences. I get why you are being cautious - it's an easily wasted two days on a fantastic track. I'd be looking at what car you want to drive not only for your first outing but for the time you intend to keep it.
If you still ponder over going with the KW car, ping me. I can put you in touch with our race engineer who should be able to get it pretty right from the outset, given he does lots of customer track cars, worked (or still works) for KW and has a track record racing at Spa. He is based in Germany though, so you'd need someone in the UK who can implement his set-up recommendation
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