graveyard for petrol driven classics
Discussion
Wudee said:
in my view long before we are forced 100% electric by legislation the classic car market will have taken a nosedive.
In my surroundings i see the youngster less interested in cars, don't own cars etc.
These are not people who will invest in a classic car as a thing of joy. Driving is becoming a thing for old people
This is much more significant view of the future of classics. The decline of car culture in the general public and at younger end is obvious, and so much of the classic interest is fuelled by older, more time/money capable people buying cars they lusted over, were famous or otherwise played a significant role in their formative years. It doesn’t help that cars are becoming so appliance-like. Hobbies in general are in decline and ageing, whether amateur radio or private flying. No reason classic cars won’t follow this trend - just look around you at shows and events for more evidence. An older person’s thing indeed. In my surroundings i see the youngster less interested in cars, don't own cars etc.
These are not people who will invest in a classic car as a thing of joy. Driving is becoming a thing for old people
The other hope is bob also!
All electric years away,no infrastucture to charge,not green as people think,the old classics more green than a tesla.
Petrol around for the next 500 years if most of you go off and buy elec cars you cant charge.
In your dreams classic car market will crash,petrol would still be cheap at £20 per gallon and all the more fun with less petrol cars about.
I hear the latest development at porsche is hover cars that run on fresh air.
All electric years away,no infrastucture to charge,not green as people think,the old classics more green than a tesla.
Petrol around for the next 500 years if most of you go off and buy elec cars you cant charge.
In your dreams classic car market will crash,petrol would still be cheap at £20 per gallon and all the more fun with less petrol cars about.
I hear the latest development at porsche is hover cars that run on fresh air.
Wudee said:
in my view long before we are forced 100% electric by legislation the classic car market will have taken a nosedive.
In my surroundings i see the youngster less interested in cars, don't own cars etc.
These are not people who will invest in a classic car as a thing of joy. Driving is becoming a thing for old people
Perception. When I was 15 I had lots of friends with no interest in cars. That was some time ago and yet look today. There will always be people who are disinterested - and the "special car" scene has always, obviously like every other pursuit, been a minority interest.In my surroundings i see the youngster less interested in cars, don't own cars etc.
These are not people who will invest in a classic car as a thing of joy. Driving is becoming a thing for old people
What I do see is that buffs do tend to have a greater interest in cars of their childhood or a decade or so prior as these are the ones they grew up coveting, and less interest in much older stuff. So by inference the older cars tend to be with older people, yes, but today's cars will be with tomorrow's older people, and so it will always remain, but does not reflect on any decline in interest.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think many people 50 years ago would not have been convinced that a huge business was to be based upon selling plain water coming from country A, sometimes in heavy glass bottles no less, to country B in a different hemisphere altogether, at humongous cost (for water) and which latter country had its own unlimited water supply.If there is a demand, if there is money to be made, someone will be making it. The amount of totally non-essential junk that is actually "big business" is staggering, so to suggest that no-one will bother supplying a necessity is not realistic. A basic petrol pump does not cost much. In certain places there is no associated filling station. It's just two pumps, one petrol and one diesel, sometimes simply placed on the pavement. You don't even need an attendant.
996TT02 said:
Wudee said:
in my view long before we are forced 100% electric by legislation the classic car market will have taken a nosedive.
In my surroundings i see the youngster less interested in cars, don't own cars etc.
These are not people who will invest in a classic car as a thing of joy. Driving is becoming a thing for old people
Perception. When I was 15 I had lots of friends with no interest in cars. That was some time ago and yet look today. There will always be people who are disinterested - and the "special car" scene has always, obviously like every other pursuit, been a minority interest.In my surroundings i see the youngster less interested in cars, don't own cars etc.
These are not people who will invest in a classic car as a thing of joy. Driving is becoming a thing for old people
What I do see is that buffs do tend to have a greater interest in cars of their childhood or a decade or so prior as these are the ones they grew up coveting, and less interest in much older stuff. So by inference the older cars tend to be with older people, yes, but today's cars will be with tomorrow's older people, and so it will always remain, but does not reflect on any decline in interest.
We car buffs come from standing on the pavement as kids being able to tell which car was approaching just by its sound. dreaming about owning the lotus, jag, porsche , ferrari etc not just owning them but driving them.
so when that era of desire as a youth disappears cars will become just a function to get from a-b , driverless is definitely coming, god people now want house lights , curtains process controlled etc. thats how people percieve cool
reckon moose is dead on
So ive stopped looking at the GT2 as an investment and when i retire im banging some miles on her and when im unable to squeeze my bulk into her hopefully she will find a new home with a petrolhead a young un!
.
so when that era of desire as a youth disappears cars will become just a function to get from a-b , driverless is definitely coming, god people now want house lights , curtains process controlled etc. thats how people percieve cool
reckon moose is dead on
So ive stopped looking at the GT2 as an investment and when i retire im banging some miles on her and when im unable to squeeze my bulk into her hopefully she will find a new home with a petrolhead a young un!
.
Driverless and electric are two very different poisons. There is scant industry interest in anything else but electric propulsion now. Humans crave change and change at all costs. We tend to have a bob on for what we call progress and it’s a trait of ours to confuse change as progress. So electric cars have been settled upon and its is electric cars that will now happen. They undoubtably will start to gain traction quickly once critical mass in the market is reached.
Self driving cars are an entirely different ball game. What will be seen in the next two or three decades is assisted driving or cars with “autopilot” that has to be monitored on motorways. But you still will be able to drive and enjoy cars, albeit electrical appliance impressionistic versions of once loved marques. But entirely self driving cars, or moreover a market that pushes out manually driven cars entirely? Not in a long time. The problem delves deep.
There are still huge issues with computers inability to mix with the wildly changing variables of the current road network or marry a decision making process that can cope or is compatible with human or natural variables. Only recently there was a crash where an automatic car attempted a lane change, sensed the intended lane had become occupied and reversed its decision and changed back to its original lane, striking a vehicle that had moved in to close the gap. The driver of the manual vehicle was prosecuted. Obviously, as a California is headlong determined to push the agenda.
It leaves the gaping wounds open that computers cannot yet sufficiently think ahead or strategise. Consider the extreme variables whilst the system is as it is with weather, external factors, manually driven cars, cyclists, pedestrians, falling trees, road surface and traction degradation all able to affect the operating environment in rather an unpredictable and random fashion that is seemingly a hostile unpredictable world for a straight thinking computer. The whole network would need to change, to remove wildcard inputs for robotic cars to appear “safer”. A closed environment, like the docklands light railway. That’s a factor fold difference from electric vehicles becoming a reality.
It will happen, of course. Practically, legally and ethical challenges considered it’s a long way off, no matter how healthy the appetite of business. Until then other drivers will be prosecuted for robotic cars’ cock ups so as not to deter the trajectory or momentum of the agenda.
Self driving cars are an entirely different ball game. What will be seen in the next two or three decades is assisted driving or cars with “autopilot” that has to be monitored on motorways. But you still will be able to drive and enjoy cars, albeit electrical appliance impressionistic versions of once loved marques. But entirely self driving cars, or moreover a market that pushes out manually driven cars entirely? Not in a long time. The problem delves deep.
There are still huge issues with computers inability to mix with the wildly changing variables of the current road network or marry a decision making process that can cope or is compatible with human or natural variables. Only recently there was a crash where an automatic car attempted a lane change, sensed the intended lane had become occupied and reversed its decision and changed back to its original lane, striking a vehicle that had moved in to close the gap. The driver of the manual vehicle was prosecuted. Obviously, as a California is headlong determined to push the agenda.
It leaves the gaping wounds open that computers cannot yet sufficiently think ahead or strategise. Consider the extreme variables whilst the system is as it is with weather, external factors, manually driven cars, cyclists, pedestrians, falling trees, road surface and traction degradation all able to affect the operating environment in rather an unpredictable and random fashion that is seemingly a hostile unpredictable world for a straight thinking computer. The whole network would need to change, to remove wildcard inputs for robotic cars to appear “safer”. A closed environment, like the docklands light railway. That’s a factor fold difference from electric vehicles becoming a reality.
It will happen, of course. Practically, legally and ethical challenges considered it’s a long way off, no matter how healthy the appetite of business. Until then other drivers will be prosecuted for robotic cars’ cock ups so as not to deter the trajectory or momentum of the agenda.
Electric cars?
They are just about impossible to put out in a fire, indeed firefighters are to be trained on how to handle an EV when one crashes and burns.
The below off WIKI on the Boeing 787 battery makes interesing reading, especially the part where a lithium battery had a 3inch flame emitting from it, and also the last sentence ..... and we all remember Hammonds EV after he crashed it.
Would you really like to be travelling in an EV with the tech we are using now and someone T- Bones you?.
'On February 7, 2013, the FAA gave approval for Boeing to conduct 787 test flights to gather additional data.[383][384] In February 2013, FAA oversight of the 787's 2007 safety approval and certification was under scrutiny.[385] On March 7, 2013, the NTSB released an interim factual report about the Boston battery fire on January 7, 2013. The investigation[386] stated that "heavy smoke and fire coming from the front of the APU battery case." Firefighters "tried fire extinguishing, but smoke and flame (flame size about 3 inches) did not stop".[387][388]
Boeing completed its final tests on a revised battery design on April 5, 2013.[389] The FAA approved Boeing's revised battery design with three additional, overlapping protection methods on April 19, 2013. The FAA published a directive on April 25 to provide instructions for retrofitting battery hardware before the 787s could return to flight.[390][391] The repairs were expected to be completed in weeks.[392] Following the FAA approval in the U.S.,[393] Japan gave permission for passenger airlines to resume Boeing 787 flights in the country effective April 26, 2013.[394] On April 27, 2013, Ethiopian Airlines took a 787 on the model's first commercial flight after battery system modifications.[391][393]
On January 14, 2014, a battery in a JAL 787 emitted smoke from the battery's protection exhaust while the aircraft was undergoing pre-flight maintenance.[395][396] The battery partially melted in the incident;[397] one of its eight lithium-ion cells had its relief port vent and fluid sprayed inside the battery's container.[398] It was later reported that the battery may have reached a temperature as high as 1,220 °F (660 °C), and that Boeing did not understand the root cause of the failure'
They are just about impossible to put out in a fire, indeed firefighters are to be trained on how to handle an EV when one crashes and burns.
The below off WIKI on the Boeing 787 battery makes interesing reading, especially the part where a lithium battery had a 3inch flame emitting from it, and also the last sentence ..... and we all remember Hammonds EV after he crashed it.
Would you really like to be travelling in an EV with the tech we are using now and someone T- Bones you?.
'On February 7, 2013, the FAA gave approval for Boeing to conduct 787 test flights to gather additional data.[383][384] In February 2013, FAA oversight of the 787's 2007 safety approval and certification was under scrutiny.[385] On March 7, 2013, the NTSB released an interim factual report about the Boston battery fire on January 7, 2013. The investigation[386] stated that "heavy smoke and fire coming from the front of the APU battery case." Firefighters "tried fire extinguishing, but smoke and flame (flame size about 3 inches) did not stop".[387][388]
Boeing completed its final tests on a revised battery design on April 5, 2013.[389] The FAA approved Boeing's revised battery design with three additional, overlapping protection methods on April 19, 2013. The FAA published a directive on April 25 to provide instructions for retrofitting battery hardware before the 787s could return to flight.[390][391] The repairs were expected to be completed in weeks.[392] Following the FAA approval in the U.S.,[393] Japan gave permission for passenger airlines to resume Boeing 787 flights in the country effective April 26, 2013.[394] On April 27, 2013, Ethiopian Airlines took a 787 on the model's first commercial flight after battery system modifications.[391][393]
On January 14, 2014, a battery in a JAL 787 emitted smoke from the battery's protection exhaust while the aircraft was undergoing pre-flight maintenance.[395][396] The battery partially melted in the incident;[397] one of its eight lithium-ion cells had its relief port vent and fluid sprayed inside the battery's container.[398] It was later reported that the battery may have reached a temperature as high as 1,220 °F (660 °C), and that Boeing did not understand the root cause of the failure'
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Oh blimey. Headline shock. CMOOSE just has to have a comment and decries anyone elses opinion., Yet he or Boeing have no idea why lithium batteries are igniting.
But Boeing has an answer though
'The enclosure Boeing had to add is 185 lb (84 kg) heavier, frustratingly negating the lighter battery potential'
There you go, its as safe as houses now.
But petrol you say? Well yes it ignites, but generally only when you put an ignition to it, same as Kerosene (thats jet fuel just in case you dont know).
There you go.
Swiftly moving on .....
Edited by Wozy68 on Wednesday 17th January 14:09
Very sickening to read such a thread, not due to the contributions, but the implications of the idea. For me cars, driving, tinkering, collecting, racing... is one of the greatest pleasures in life. From the age of what, 1 or 2, most boys are pushing little matchbox cars along, then playing top trump, remembering practically every stat of their favourite cars, meccano, scalextric whatever. The fascination develops and forms part of what we are and stays with us for life. Facing the reality of this being taken away is truly horrifying. I hope I'm not around when some of the predicted ideas here are implemented. Very sad!
Leaving aside the highly subjective automation crystal ball and just talking electric cars.
I hated the idea of them, still do. But I know that’s an emotional response, of which I make no apology. I’m guilty of doing what we all tend to do in the face of the constant diatribe coming from pied pipers such as musk. That is throw the whole kit and caboodle out thinking it’s all over in a couple of years with EV.
I had to take my head for a wobble on this one as I really don’t think it’s going to happen like this. Rather than looking forward 30 years, look back 30 years. I suppose some car owners back then would be horrified if they could see what cars 30 years later would look like now. With benefit of hindsight we might look back and can say the change is not so much. However, taken in stark relief without that hinsight the changes would look pretty polar to an observer from 30 years ago. Yet, we are just as enthusiastic about Porsches and find pleasure in them now. It’ll happen with E cars. No brand like Porsche will want to kill off its identity that keeps people coming to it. They’re like rock bands, they need their followers.
As long as there is a market for people taking a pleasure in them, I don’t personally think people won’t lose their enthusiasm for cars despite the doom mongering. Humans always have taken interest in their expensive objects and the self identity associated with them. I mean a house is actually a pretty dull thing if you think about it, but people are obsessed with them, far beyond what is rational for the purpose they serve. We spend a lot on them and invest a bit of ourselves in them. With a EVs it’ll still be talking suspension, handling but with strange new terms and accessories thrown in.
The big kicker would be if shared car pooling was forced upon us either by establishment desire or the wide market. But I think that is a long long way off, if at all. I suspect that aspect will come as part of complete change to road automation and rad infrastructure, which I personally still feel will not happen in the same time frame as the change to the method of propulsion.
Until then, I reckon for the next lot of decades beyond the living memory of most on here - there will be a lot of enthusiast pleasure to be had in cars. It’ll just change and we’ll change too without realising.
I hated the idea of them, still do. But I know that’s an emotional response, of which I make no apology. I’m guilty of doing what we all tend to do in the face of the constant diatribe coming from pied pipers such as musk. That is throw the whole kit and caboodle out thinking it’s all over in a couple of years with EV.
I had to take my head for a wobble on this one as I really don’t think it’s going to happen like this. Rather than looking forward 30 years, look back 30 years. I suppose some car owners back then would be horrified if they could see what cars 30 years later would look like now. With benefit of hindsight we might look back and can say the change is not so much. However, taken in stark relief without that hinsight the changes would look pretty polar to an observer from 30 years ago. Yet, we are just as enthusiastic about Porsches and find pleasure in them now. It’ll happen with E cars. No brand like Porsche will want to kill off its identity that keeps people coming to it. They’re like rock bands, they need their followers.
As long as there is a market for people taking a pleasure in them, I don’t personally think people won’t lose their enthusiasm for cars despite the doom mongering. Humans always have taken interest in their expensive objects and the self identity associated with them. I mean a house is actually a pretty dull thing if you think about it, but people are obsessed with them, far beyond what is rational for the purpose they serve. We spend a lot on them and invest a bit of ourselves in them. With a EVs it’ll still be talking suspension, handling but with strange new terms and accessories thrown in.
The big kicker would be if shared car pooling was forced upon us either by establishment desire or the wide market. But I think that is a long long way off, if at all. I suspect that aspect will come as part of complete change to road automation and rad infrastructure, which I personally still feel will not happen in the same time frame as the change to the method of propulsion.
Until then, I reckon for the next lot of decades beyond the living memory of most on here - there will be a lot of enthusiast pleasure to be had in cars. It’ll just change and we’ll change too without realising.
Edited by Buggyjam on Wednesday 17th January 14:33
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Just tell me how the batteries caught fire and I'll agree with you. We all know how jet fuel or any other flammable fuel ignites, there's no argument there. Just give me the answer on why they do, and I'll agree with you all day long on it.
It never was mean't as an argument about anything, just an observation of what can happen to lithium batteries...... and I find it disquieting.
I actually enjoy driving old cars. Much more than the next 700 PS hybrid whatever sportscar. It is much more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow(ly) so as long as no manufacturer can come up with a modern car that is actually fun to drive and which doesnt put you in jail, i stick to the old ones. Whether they are going to have any value (other than sentimental) 30 years down the line is a question is rather selfishly leave to my kids to worry about.
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
Very sickening to read such a thread, not due to the contributions, but the implications of the idea. For me cars, driving, tinkering, collecting, racing... is one of the greatest pleasures in life. From the age of what, 1 or 2, most boys are pushing little matchbox cars along, then playing top trump, remembering practically every stat of their favourite cars, meccano, scalextric whatever. The fascination develops and forms part of what we are and stays with us for life. Facing the reality of this being taken away is truly horrifying. I hope I'm not around when some of the predicted ideas here are implemented. Very sad!
I don't think children are into cars in the same way any more. I have a couple of nephews (unrelated to each other) one is 11 one is 13. I have never seen the 11 year old even pick up a toy car, I'm sure he has none and he has almost everything he could ever want. The older boy has a few but his father deals in cars. He’ll play car games on his xbox but there is no tactile enjoyment in poring over the details on the toy car that my brothers and I would do marvelling that the white Corgi XJ-S (sans sticker on the bonnet) had twin pipes because it was a V12. Or WD:40ing the corner on the Scalextric.I don’t doubt that there are boys and girls (my sample pool of two is hardly conclusive) who are as in love with cars and everything associated with them as we were but I doubt it’s the norm.
If we were to really look at the “Classic Car Scene” how much of it is because it’s become fashionable among certain influential groups? The ridiculous ascent of the classic car as an investment partly by those wishing to be seen to own various cars and enjoying the financial benefit of doing so. The benefit is that many cars have seen restorations that would not have been rational only a few years ago which can only be a good thing, the disadvantage is that many are unaffordable to the average enthusiast who may be unable to own a convenient daily and the enjoyable weekender.
Not to say that fashion isn’t an incredibly powerful force but it can be prone to change. (Think how quickly SUVs have become the car of choice for families. What if the most desirable next generation is only available as an EV…)
There will always be those like us who will always want to drive something that gives more pleasure than simply and efficiently moving physically from one point to another but we will not be around for ever and those behind us will have a harder job getting into interesting things if everything interesting becomes an investment and is squirreled away as such.
The point of this ramble is that change the perception of the influence makers for whatever reason – a different generation of wealth? and the change of the interests of the next kids (if the normal families don’t have cars that they can get involved with where is the encouragement?) then what is going to keep the culture and demand for the ICE going?
Add financial encouragement from different directions, incentives to change, penalties if you don’t (government taxation, insurance, fuel costs) and you have to really want to dive your petrol car.
There are people on this website who have some of the most amazing cars and yet struggle to drive them more than a few miles a year and that is with everything still in their favour.
I do think that it will be a lot sooner than we think and I’m not generally a pessimist.
I’m not sold by this notion that young people aren’t enthusiastic about cars anymore. Or, more pointedly “millennials only care about phones and connectivity”. If you go onto YouTube there’s a massive amount of content from young twenty somethings to do with their cars. One of the channels I watch on how to spanner various bits and pieces on a Cayman is by someone who’d be classed as a millennial. Take the drifting scene. That’s largely a younger scene and is really buoyant. Granted, moreso in the US and Far East than here it would seem.
We presume young people won’t be interested in cars because of where we’re at. We have expensive ICE motoring, dull as dishwater beta EVs wearing their training nappies and a classic car/ high performance scene treating itself like the bitcoin. No wonder we view the enthusiasm for apps and phones in the young as a trajectory that will continue.
However, that’s lacking foresight for how different things could be. In fact the car scene amongst the young could see a resurgence perhaps. I come back to people still loving their identity. It could be a very healthy thing. Young people still do stuff outside of phones like kite surfing, cycling, making films. You name it. There’s no reason to suspect that the next generation of hot sporty clean EV that sounds like the BTTF Time machine won’t spark interest. Especially if it can be connected to phones, composite panels changed colours by swapping, no more rust. Who knows?
We presume young people won’t be interested in cars because of where we’re at. We have expensive ICE motoring, dull as dishwater beta EVs wearing their training nappies and a classic car/ high performance scene treating itself like the bitcoin. No wonder we view the enthusiasm for apps and phones in the young as a trajectory that will continue.
However, that’s lacking foresight for how different things could be. In fact the car scene amongst the young could see a resurgence perhaps. I come back to people still loving their identity. It could be a very healthy thing. Young people still do stuff outside of phones like kite surfing, cycling, making films. You name it. There’s no reason to suspect that the next generation of hot sporty clean EV that sounds like the BTTF Time machine won’t spark interest. Especially if it can be connected to phones, composite panels changed colours by swapping, no more rust. Who knows?
The other thing that needs to be looked at before EV cars become popular is how you are going to pay for a re-charge, if people think they will be allowed to plug their car into the household mains at night and fill it up on cheap power they are in cloud cuckoo land, there is no way governments will let go the billions raised from fuel duty every year car charging points will be rated to collect duty at every recharge or possibly a dedicated meter is installed to charge the car.
Most seem to think its going to be ultra cheap to run a EV car the exact opposite will probably be the case.
Most seem to think its going to be ultra cheap to run a EV car the exact opposite will probably be the case.
Sadly I agree the X-box generation are bored by the real thing my 13 year old boys ........ when take them to racing want to leave after a few minutes .......... and do not watch even when Dad is out .
PS Petrol does burn as well apparently ....
Here is Yellow's Picture from Daytona a few months ago , a Porsche in pitlane ..... all rescued though by great fire crew ..
PS Petrol does burn as well apparently ....
Here is Yellow's Picture from Daytona a few months ago , a Porsche in pitlane ..... all rescued though by great fire crew ..
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