The future for Porsche?
Discussion
Boxster5 said:
It certainly doesn’t seem to be reflected in UK dealers with lots of unsold new/pre-registered stock some with decent discounts - something I’ve never seen in my 20 years of buying Porsches.
Times are tough for all manufacturers with the transition to EV and Porsche is not immune to that. Let’s see how it pans out.
Porsche have sold something like 50% more cars in the UK this year….in that context things are perhaps not quite so bad. That said the OPC’s have got a lot of cars sitting in their storage compounds, that’s an issue they will have to deal with.Times are tough for all manufacturers with the transition to EV and Porsche is not immune to that. Let’s see how it pans out.
In my mind the biggest issue Porsche have is that the core of their business is the 911….whose USP is that it is a rear engined 2+2 sports car.
How they keep a 911 feeling like a 911 with “hybridisation” and EV’s I don’t know. Personally I don’t leaven like the 4wd variants now !
Picked up my 991.2 GTS today and happened to mention that I still have a deposit in with another dealer on a 992.2.
Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket.
No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.
Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket.
No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.
Louis Balfour said:
RDMcG said:
I think that there is a strategic issue for Porsche, ( I have some cars, by the way).
The brand identity to me has always been anchored in motorsport success and engineering excellence and innovation. The driving experience has always been very focused.
I am of course well aware that the Cayennes and Mayans etc are the core of the sales volume these days, but the casual observer might still think of racing and engineering.
Now the world in changing quickly and we will see the emergence of new players, especially from China who will have a significant competitive advantage in the EV space as they are already ahead. Even small players from places like Croatia are showing up in the EV supercar space.
Typically the GT cars were periodic holders of the Nürburgring lap record, the dedicated team cars were competitive at Le Mans and there were waiting lists for the latest models. However,the conventionally powered cars with all of that engineering history have nowhere to go in terms of future development. There will be two records for the Ring , EV and non-EV no doubt, but the overall recored will go to the EV in the future.
I may be totally wrong , but it seems to me that VAG has made a strategic error in being behind on EV power and Porsche is just part of that concern.
Believe me, I want to be wrong. I have had 4 GT3RS and love the feel of them, but I am less confident that they are the way of the future.
Interesting post.The brand identity to me has always been anchored in motorsport success and engineering excellence and innovation. The driving experience has always been very focused.
I am of course well aware that the Cayennes and Mayans etc are the core of the sales volume these days, but the casual observer might still think of racing and engineering.
Now the world in changing quickly and we will see the emergence of new players, especially from China who will have a significant competitive advantage in the EV space as they are already ahead. Even small players from places like Croatia are showing up in the EV supercar space.
Typically the GT cars were periodic holders of the Nürburgring lap record, the dedicated team cars were competitive at Le Mans and there were waiting lists for the latest models. However,the conventionally powered cars with all of that engineering history have nowhere to go in terms of future development. There will be two records for the Ring , EV and non-EV no doubt, but the overall recored will go to the EV in the future.
I may be totally wrong , but it seems to me that VAG has made a strategic error in being behind on EV power and Porsche is just part of that concern.
Believe me, I want to be wrong. I have had 4 GT3RS and love the feel of them, but I am less confident that they are the way of the future.
There is also the issue of Porsche trading on a name it established fifty years ago.
Porsche used to be mentioned in the same breath as Ferrari. In the 1980s people used to put "My other car is a Porsche" stickers in the back window of jalopies. Then Porsche wanted to become all things to all men - the SUVs, the saloons, and now Porsche is everywhere. It's a trick that only works for so long, and now I think the brand has become boring. Just another German car.
Sure, they still make some great sports cars. But it's been a long time since anything Porsche has turned my head, classics notwithstanding.
Milemuncher said:
Picked up my 991.2 GTS today and happened to mention that I still have a deposit in with another dealer on a 992.2.
Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket.
No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.
Remember you were talking to car sales person, the old trick of sorry sir we won’t make enough of those for everyone. Limited numbers see! Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket.
No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.
GT4RS said:
Remember you were talking to car sales person, the old trick of sorry sir we won’t make enough of those for everyone. Limited numbers see!
Yes, yes, I always take it with a pinch of salt - but to be fair this salesman had no dog in this particular fight - I’d just bought a car off him and the deposit is down elsewhere with a completely different group.GT4RS said:
Milemuncher said:
Picked up my 991.2 GTS today and happened to mention that I still have a deposit in with another dealer on a 992.2.
Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket.
No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.
Remember you were talking to car sales person, the old trick of sorry sir we won’t make enough of those for everyone. Limited numbers see! Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket.
No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.
They’re a highly successful company and brand and they can sell ICE cars until at least 2035 in the EU and in other markets for longer. I wouldn’t get too worried for their share holders yet. If Chinese cars get too successful, the EU and the States will close ranks and stop their competitiveness.
Cheib said:
There is absolutely no way Porsche are giving out production information/specs for the 992.2 when it hasn’t even been launched. DP’s/Heads of Sales have probably seen one by now but Porsche won’t be letting information like all 992.2s being hybrid leak out…which they know it will.
I don’t think the hybrid bit is much of a secret tbf but the rest could also be Porsche playing games with dealers as in next year you will/might get a much lower allocation so why don’t you take another few cars now to be on the safe side. The whole foisting EVs on people next year will have an impact uniquely in the UK you’d imagine. There is probably a business case for pre regging now. Long term they will be fine but short term it's very grim until they manage their way out of the massive overstocking of expensive vehicles.
Cutting 2024 production to force people into old stock is an attempt to protect the brand but people won't buy old stock without major incentives.
Watch out fir more smoke an mirrors
Cutting 2024 production to force people into old stock is an attempt to protect the brand but people won't buy old stock without major incentives.
Watch out fir more smoke an mirrors
stichill99 said:
I was at my local OPC last week and I just have to admit their was none of the dealer stock that I had the slightest interest in! 40 years ago as a car mad teenager I used to love looking at the showroom full of 911,924,944 and 928's, Such is turning into an old fart I suppose!
I remember those days very well.ChrisW. said:
I think that Porsche have nailed their colours to the mast and are an industrial juggernaut with VAG.
You can be sure that all decisions made will be purely financial ... hence they will survive but possibly not in the "classically emotionally" branded character of the past (... when they did almost go bust between 3.2 / 964 and 993).
For some of us (old farts ? in Porsche's eyes ?) we feel the loss and are disengaging, not least because we can't go into our OPC and spec and buy a car that we want at the normal price. So maybe we aren't such old farts, but the shareholder of Porsche certainly don't care and there is no point in speaking against the Sun.
In a way my view is that Porsche are a bit stuck ... their Ev's aren't yet good enough, they are leaving their classic market behind and everybody knows that the middle ranges are VW's ... but for the moment at least the brand name appeals.
Agree Chris, But as we all know Porsches bread and butter are Macan and Cayenne and to swap both ranges ASAP over to pure EVs is in my opinion a big risk as i think the sales numbers will be smaller.You can be sure that all decisions made will be purely financial ... hence they will survive but possibly not in the "classically emotionally" branded character of the past (... when they did almost go bust between 3.2 / 964 and 993).
For some of us (old farts ? in Porsche's eyes ?) we feel the loss and are disengaging, not least because we can't go into our OPC and spec and buy a car that we want at the normal price. So maybe we aren't such old farts, but the shareholder of Porsche certainly don't care and there is no point in speaking against the Sun.
In a way my view is that Porsche are a bit stuck ... their Ev's aren't yet good enough, they are leaving their classic market behind and everybody knows that the middle ranges are VW's ... but for the moment at least the brand name appeals.
The Taycan is also doing damage to the brands residuals reputation at the moment, and I recently learned that all the BIK and other tax advantages only apply to NEW cars, and I would never want to own any EV simply because 50% of thieir value is a bloody battery.
I am also amazed that the UK is the top market for Taycan with our current crap infrastructure.
burman said:
Agree Chris, But as we all know Porsches bread and butter are Macan and Cayenne and to swap both ranges ASAP over to pure EVs is in my opinion a big risk as i think the sales numbers will be smaller.
The Taycan is also doing damage to the brands residuals reputation at the moment, and I recently learned that all the BIK and other tax advantages only apply to NEW cars, and I would never want to own any EV simply because 50% of thieir value is a bloody battery.
I am also amazed that the UK is the top market for Taycan with our current crap infrastructure.
BIK is the same for new or second hand. It’s only the 1st year WDA that doesn’t apply for second hand. A second hand Taycan at a huge discount still has plenty of advantages for those with a company. Firstly, you’ll pay corp tax, but it’s not personal funds so you won’t have paid higher rate income tax or dividend rate. Secondly, insurance, tyres, servicing etc is a company expense. These things add up when taking a Panamera to the OPC.The Taycan is also doing damage to the brands residuals reputation at the moment, and I recently learned that all the BIK and other tax advantages only apply to NEW cars, and I would never want to own any EV simply because 50% of thieir value is a bloody battery.
I am also amazed that the UK is the top market for Taycan with our current crap infrastructure.
The problem for Taycan is the UK and Europe doesn’t historically buy cars of that size in huge volumes.
The EV tax advantages on new cars massively inflated demand artificially due lack of alternatives in either same or next size category down. Until fairly recently if you didn’t want a EV SUV your choices where Model 3, i4 or EQS.
Remember in ‘22 Porsche sold more Taycan’s in the UK than combined sales of Audi A7, BMW 7er and Mercedes S class. Residuals of cars in that sector have traditionally been pretty grim, but as mostly corporate purchases not something the buyer feels personally. If you are the MD of widget and sprocket ltd rocking up a S class to customer meetings that’s on the books as an executive pool car *hint* this is just factored into your operating costs.
The “plummeting” values are just a reversion to historical sector means. You should due to lack of used demand take a bath on such cars.
The EV tax advantages on new cars massively inflated demand artificially due lack of alternatives in either same or next size category down. Until fairly recently if you didn’t want a EV SUV your choices where Model 3, i4 or EQS.
Remember in ‘22 Porsche sold more Taycan’s in the UK than combined sales of Audi A7, BMW 7er and Mercedes S class. Residuals of cars in that sector have traditionally been pretty grim, but as mostly corporate purchases not something the buyer feels personally. If you are the MD of widget and sprocket ltd rocking up a S class to customer meetings that’s on the books as an executive pool car *hint* this is just factored into your operating costs.
The “plummeting” values are just a reversion to historical sector means. You should due to lack of used demand take a bath on such cars.
Capitalism is cannibalistic in its nature, only around 25% of the original companies listed on the FTSE100 in 1984 are still there, giants have fallen, VAG aren't immune no business is as most have a shelf life.
Kodak is a classic example of a market leader that held on to its legacy cash cow for too long, but it's very hard for a legacy business to change and compete with disrupters that have cash to burn whilst the legacy business is held to its qtr outlook by the same investors that throw money at the start ups
When you go into a Porsche Centre now, the asking prices of cars in the showrooms are beyond belief. They’ve absolutely rocketed in recent times (as have other brands - the so called luxury car tax £40k+ now incorporates the likes of cars from Kia and Hyundai -time for some readjustment of the threshold)
Granted, they’ll be highly specced but the “average Joe” can’t contemplate being able to afford one of these (not that Porsche were ever classed as a car for the “average Joe” of course) but the cost to change is out of most peoples reach.
I remember visiting a Porsche dealer in Naples, Florida in 2018 and spotting a highly specced 718 GTS 2.5 (not the 4.0 litre version) - that was over $111,000 back then.
I for one will not be looking at anything new now - just not possible.
Granted, they’ll be highly specced but the “average Joe” can’t contemplate being able to afford one of these (not that Porsche were ever classed as a car for the “average Joe” of course) but the cost to change is out of most peoples reach.
I remember visiting a Porsche dealer in Naples, Florida in 2018 and spotting a highly specced 718 GTS 2.5 (not the 4.0 litre version) - that was over $111,000 back then.
I for one will not be looking at anything new now - just not possible.
Cheib said:
GT4RS said:
Milemuncher said:
Picked up my 991.2 GTS today and happened to mention that I still have a deposit in with another dealer on a 992.2.
Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket.
No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.
Remember you were talking to car sales person, the old trick of sorry sir we won’t make enough of those for everyone. Limited numbers see! Dealer said they found out this week that all 992.2s will be hybrid, with much reduced allocations - their allocation for first year of production likely to be c.30 cars vs 70 x 992s this year, the suggestion being that production volume was being pushed onto SUVs and EVs with 911 to be pushed further upmarket.
No idea if accurate but interesting nonetheless.
Edited by GTS440 on Sunday 19th November 18:06
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