1981 Porsche 911 Turbo
Discussion
NineMeister said:
Come on lads, let's get back to the plot, we're talking man's cars here for all those equipped with a stick-on hairy chest.....
That's a lovely looking 930.
To sum up your options in getting the engine to feel relatively modern with wider torque curve and better response, these are my recommendations and approximate fitted prices (excl. VAT):
1. Headers. Junk the whole exhaust between the heads and the turbo, fit short tube, small diameter header/heat exchangers. Boosts 700rpm earlier, more torque, more power. £3000 fitted.
2. 1.0 bar boost spring. Although it also gives more power the stronger spring stops the wastegate from prematurely opening and improves the response before the torque peak. £200 fitted.
3. Turbo. Junk the standard 3LDZ and fit the ubiquetous K27/11/11. Spools 500rpm earlier, less lag, more power. £2000 fitted.
Fit the lot and I dare say you will up the power from 300bhp to 370bhp & torque from 420Nm to 530Nm, practically eliminate between gear lag and also have the bottom end feel of a n/a engine. The enggine does not need fuel modifications for this level of tune (stock system is safe up to 400bhp) but I would recommend optimising the ignition on the dyno.
As for NB, BW & JG, all I can say is "who?"Perhaps others would care to enlighten more?
But then its a modified porsche and not the Icon in the poster. Surely there are enough Nissan skylines about without dessicrating porsches.
nonegreen said:
But then its a modified porsche and not the Icon in the poster. Surely there are enough Nissan skylines about without dessicrating porsches.
I respect the view to keep things factory, especially with rare cars, but we are not exactly talking about a collectors car here, are we? And you are definitely preaching to the wrong guy about dessicrating Porsche's.
In my opinion owners should be applauded for looking at sensible ways of improving the enjoyment of their pride and joy, after all why accept a dated factory compromise when there are proven answers to your needs? As I read it, M.Lovell asked the question on how he gets his new car to behave in a civilised modern fashion, and contrary to opinions otherwise I have answered his question on how to get what he is looking for without compromising the reliability, economy (sic), look or sound of his car. None of the parts suggested can be seen from either the engine bay or the outside of the car, so why try to devalue the suggestion by inferring that we are suggesting "blinging" the car to an unrecognisable level? Interestingly the K27/11/11 turbo mentioned is standard fitment on the 965, so what's wrong with fitting the turbo that Porsche recognise as an improvement over the 3LDZ?
Maybe you have learned to live with the lousy response and performance of your own (standard?) 965, and of course if you wanted a faster car you would just buy a 993 or 996 turbo..... but that does not mean that everyone else has to think likewise.
m.lovell said:
A pic of the turbo other pics at
www.villagephotos.com/pubgallery.a
Still Automotive Porn
looks great 
Stone him ,,,,,,,blasthemer
I would say good ones very much are collectors cars. If not what makes a collectors or classic car ?
I do see both points as to upgrading. As I said in my post more than greater HP I would like the car to be more drivable, with less turbo lag. At the moment the turbo seems to be fine but its done 80k miles and wont last for ever and if I have to fit a new turbo would it not make more sence to fit a more modern one ? Same for the exhaust, luckly the car has s/steel heat exchangers but still has a steel exhaust. Form past exsperiance with cars that are not used daily they dont last five mins, so a s/steel sports exhaust has got to be sensable.
I do tend to use my cars quite a lot and the more drivable they are the more I`ll use it. For me its all about my enjoyment and if Its a pain to drive ( I dont all together dislike the all or nothing boost)chances are I`ll just use the CSL or Maserati instead.
regards
marc
I do see both points as to upgrading. As I said in my post more than greater HP I would like the car to be more drivable, with less turbo lag. At the moment the turbo seems to be fine but its done 80k miles and wont last for ever and if I have to fit a new turbo would it not make more sence to fit a more modern one ? Same for the exhaust, luckly the car has s/steel heat exchangers but still has a steel exhaust. Form past exsperiance with cars that are not used daily they dont last five mins, so a s/steel sports exhaust has got to be sensable.
I do tend to use my cars quite a lot and the more drivable they are the more I`ll use it. For me its all about my enjoyment and if Its a pain to drive ( I dont all together dislike the all or nothing boost)chances are I`ll just use the CSL or Maserati instead.
regards
marc
NineMeister said:
But then its a modified porsche and not the Icon in the poster. Surely there are enough Nissan skylines about without dessicrating porsches.
I respect the view to keep things factory, especially with rare cars, but we are not exactly talking about a collectors car here, are we? And you are definitely preaching to the wrong guy about dessicrating Porsche's.
In my opinion owners should be applauded for looking at sensible ways of improving the enjoyment of their pride and joy, after all why accept a dated factory compromise when there are proven answers to your needs? As I read it, M.Lovell asked the question on how he gets his new car to behave in a civilised modern fashion, and contrary to opinions otherwise I have answered his question on how to get what he is looking for without compromising the reliability, economy (sic), look or sound of his car. None of the parts suggested can be seen from either the engine bay or the outside of the car, so why try to devalue the suggestion by inferring that we are suggesting "blinging" the car to an unrecognisable level? Interestingly the K27/11/11 turbo mentioned is standard fitment on the 965, so what's wrong with fitting the turbo that Porsche recognise as an improvement over the 3LDZ?
Maybe you have learned to live with the lousy response and performance of your own (standard?) 965, and of course if you wanted a faster car you would just buy a 993 or 996 turbo..... but that does not mean that everyone else has to think likewise.
I am more than happy to watch you molest as many Porsches as you can find.
You do however seem to be very unhappy unless a car is modified. I think if you are going to modify a Porsche then the choice of the basic car is important. It is a particularly stupid move to purchase the very best and original unmolested example then modify it. Surely a more sensible policy would be to buy a perfectly good example without the neccesary service history and with high miles or even cat D. That way when you modify you are not devaluing the car. My 965 is currently unmodified and I have no plans to change that. It is not that I am against it on principle but simply that in the era that it lives it is fine and its response is as it came from the factory. You are correct in that if I wanted to get more performance I would buy a more modern car. Taking this debate to the extreem would you buy one of the 8 RHD 965s's and modify that? Pottentially dropping its value from 50k to 35 overnight? At what point do you draw the line and say this is a rare car and it should be preserved in the factory state?
Most of my cars are standard and any mods are normaly made to keep originality. With my old CSL the engine has done 80k miles and with care full use it would last another 80k. I decided in that case to build up a race spec 3.5 based on a strengthnd m6 bottom end running a big vave 12 valve head. The reason being that I thrash the t*ts off it and the 3.5 can stand it beter. If ever I want to sell the car all I would do is repace the original engine and the car would be original.
The Rolls Royce needed new springs and shockers and Harvey Baily handling kits are around 30% cheaper that the original Rolls Royce shocks and springs and the Ride and Handling is fAR better.
All my other cars are standard (except the sevo on the E-type, any one who keeps the original would need there heads testing). I must admit I am more inclined to keep the Turbo standard but a quick spooling turbo dose seem the best option and quite tempting.
mar
The Rolls Royce needed new springs and shockers and Harvey Baily handling kits are around 30% cheaper that the original Rolls Royce shocks and springs and the Ride and Handling is fAR better.
All my other cars are standard (except the sevo on the E-type, any one who keeps the original would need there heads testing). I must admit I am more inclined to keep the Turbo standard but a quick spooling turbo dose seem the best option and quite tempting.
mar
NineMeister said:
Come on lads, let's get back to the plot, we're talking man's cars here for all those equipped with a stick-on hairy chest.....
That's a lovely looking 930.
To sum up your options in getting the engine to feel relatively modern with wider torque curve and better response, these are my recommendations and approximate fitted prices (excl. VAT):
1. Headers. Junk the whole exhaust between the heads and the turbo, fit short tube, small diameter header/heat exchangers. Boosts 700rpm earlier, more torque, more power. £3000 fitted.
2. 1.0 bar boost spring. Although it also gives more power the stronger spring stops the wastegate from prematurely opening and improves the response before the torque peak. £200 fitted.
3. Turbo. Junk the standard 3LDZ and fit the ubiquetous K27/11/11. Spools 500rpm earlier, less lag, more power. £2000 fitted.
Fit the lot and I dare say you will up the power from 300bhp to 370bhp & torque from 420Nm to 530Nm, practically eliminate between gear lag and also have the bottom end feel of a n/a engine. The enggine does not need fuel modifications for this level of tune (stock system is safe up to 400bhp) but I would recommend optimising the ignition on the dyno.
As for NB, BW & JG, all I can say is "who?"
But that's nearly £5,500. You could buy a Porsche 944 Turbo and make that quicker then the above for about the same amount of money...
nonegreen said:
I am more than happy to watch you molest as many Porsches as you can find.
My 965 is currently unmodified and I have no plans to change that. It is not that I am against it on principle but simply that in the era that it lives it is fine and its response is as it came from the factory. You are correct in that if I wanted to get more performance I would buy a more modern car. Taking this debate to the extreem would you buy one of the 8 RHD 965s's and modify that? Pottentially dropping its value from 50k to 35 overnight? At what point do you draw the line and say this is a rare car and it should be preserved in the factory state?
You seem to forget that one man's poison is another mans pleasure, so when you say that you are not against modified cars in principle, by describing the act of modification as "molestation" I cannot believe you.
Contrary to your opinion I am totally content working on standard Pork, but I freely admit that I am a total and utter Pistonhead, so I revel in making them go, stop and corner better. Which brings me to ask why are you lurking on this forum? Since you are obviously not a Pistonhead in the truest sense, would you not be better off enjoying the delights of the "other" forums that delight in talking about standard cars?
Regarding choice of quality of a car, I disagree that you should buy the worst and start from there, buying the best you can makes a lot more sense because it costs a lot to put right wear and tear. One customer brought me a 4,500 mile 1989 5 speed turbo coupe that had been museum stored for 10 years. Eventually it ended up with a 450bhp engine, fit big brakes, 18" wheels, fast-road/track suspension and a set of 18" wheels. The customer could have bought a 996 turbo but since he preferred the 930 shape decided to have a new 930 with the performance of a 996t. We achieved this objective with cash to spare and gave him the car he dreamed about.
As for perception of value, to me there is no sense whatsoever in a private individual buying new Porsches every 3 years and losing £20k a time in depreciation - making a loss of £60k in 9 years - but many people do exactly this. However if another buys a perfect 930 for £30k, spends £20k on it and keeps it for 9yrs after which it is worth £25k(?) he is better off by £35k. Who is really the fool?
As for working on rare cars, yes I would modify a 965S if a customer asked me to with absolutely no guilt or conscience (but I would probably give him back the box of parts we replaced). Why not, isn't it better to drive a car that you enjoy rather than having one in a garage that you do not? As for keeping cars totally period, who wants to live in the past, been there once and that was enough, so I now listen to White Stripes, Coldplay & Eminem, not Duran Duran, ELO & Dire Straights.....
>> Edited by NineMeister on Thursday 27th October 14:10
NineMeister said:
I am more than happy to watch you molest as many Porsches as you can find.
My 965 is currently unmodified and I have no plans to change that. It is not that I am against it on principle but simply that in the era that it lives it is fine and its response is as it came from the factory. You are correct in that if I wanted to get more performance I would buy a more modern car. Taking this debate to the extreem would you buy one of the 8 RHD 965s's and modify that? Pottentially dropping its value from 50k to 35 overnight? At what point do you draw the line and say this is a rare car and it should be preserved in the factory state?
You seem to forget that one man's poison is another mans pleasure, so when you say that you are not against modified cars in principle, by describing the act of modification as "molestation" I cannot believe you.
Contrary to your opinion I am totally content working on standard Pork, but I freely admit that I am a total and utter Pistonhead, so I revel in making them go, stop and corner better. Which brings me to ask why are you lurking on this forum? Since you are obviously not a Pistonhead in the truest sense, would you not be better off enjoying the delights of the "other" forums that delight in talking about standard cars?
Regarding choice of quality of a car, I disagree that you should buy the worst and start from there, buying the best you can makes a lot more sense because it costs a lot to put right wear and tear. One customer brought me a 4,500 mile 1989 5 speed turbo coupe that had been museum stored for 10 years. Eventually it ended up with a 450bhp engine, fit big brakes, 18" wheels, fast-road/track suspension and a set of 18" wheels. The customer could have bought a 996 turbo but since he preferred the 930 shape decided to have a new 930 with the performance of a 996t. We achieved this objective with cash to spare and gave him the car he dreamed about.
As for perception of value, to me there is no sense whatsoever in a private individual buying new Porsches every 3 years and losing £20k a time in depreciation - making a loss of £60k in 9 years - but many people do exactly this. However if another buys a perfect 930 for £30k, spends £20k on it and keeps it for 9yrs after which it is worth £25k(?) he is better off by £35k. Who is really the fool?
As for working on rare cars, yes I would modify a 965S if a customer asked me to with absolutely no guilt or conscience (but I would probably give him back the box of parts we replaced). Why not, isn't it better to drive a car that you enjoy rather than having one in a garage that you do not? As for keeping cars totally period, who wants to live in the past, been there once and that was enough, so I now listen to White Stripes, Coldplay & Eminem, not Duran Duran, ELO & Dire Straights.....
>> Edited by NineMeister on Thursday 27th October 14:10
Your maths don't add up but I guess you are reducing the number of mint original vehicles around which is great news for those who own them. If you noticed the molestation comment had a big grin after it and was very much tongue in cheek. I dont lurk here if you look at my profile I have made more than 4000 posts. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject of what and when to modify. I think messing with a nice turbo S of which there are only 8 should land the messer in jail, but then there are listed building I would demolish to make way for new roads
Who is Eminem BTW is that that "crap" music? 
What does make me smile is that generally the most valuable Porsche's are invariably the rare race cars, which in the case of most 911 derivatives were oiked off the production line for the boys at Weissach to molest at will. But since Porsche did it themselves this is "provenance", whereas anyone else doing it (apart from Ruf?) it is sacreledge. The fact that you can also order your Porsche through the Special Wishes Programme with anything you could ever dream of just smacks me of dual standards.
Anyway, we will agree to disagree I suppose, but you best send the Pork Police round to 9m soon because we are getting ready to fit a 9m Motec package to one of two factory rhd 964 3.8RS.
Hey Willamp, just because me and NG are having a decent debate, don't think you can get away with saying that a 944Turbo can be made to reliably produce the 400bhp it will need to blow away a 370bhp 930 - on a £5k budget? It will cost you this labour replacing head gaskets in the first year of trying...
Anyway, we will agree to disagree I suppose, but you best send the Pork Police round to 9m soon because we are getting ready to fit a 9m Motec package to one of two factory rhd 964 3.8RS.
Hey Willamp, just because me and NG are having a decent debate, don't think you can get away with saying that a 944Turbo can be made to reliably produce the 400bhp it will need to blow away a 370bhp 930 - on a £5k budget? It will cost you this labour replacing head gaskets in the first year of trying...
NineMeister said:
Anyway, we will agree to disagree I suppose, but you best send the Pork Police round to 9m soon because we are getting ready to fit a 9m Motec package to one of two factory rhd 964 3.8RS.
Somehow thats seems far more palletable than messing with a turbo s. Dunno why it just seems more acceptable.
NineMeister said:
Regarding choice of quality of a car, I disagree that you should buy the worst and start from there, buying the best you can makes a lot more sense because it costs a lot to put right wear and tear. One customer brought me a 4,500 mile 1989 5 speed turbo coupe that had been museum stored for 10 years. Eventually it ended up with a 450bhp engine, fit big brakes, 18" wheels, fast-road/track suspension and a set of 18" wheels. The customer could have bought a 996 turbo but since he preferred the 930 shape decided to have a new 930 with the performance of a 996t. We achieved this objective with cash to spare and gave him the car he dreamed about.
>> Edited by NineMeister on Thursday 27th October 14:10
What a fantastic answer. Personally I can't wait to give a mint 965 the same treatment and would have it in preference to a 996tt
Getting to grips with it know.... New cluch cable and helper spring is now fitted, all the pedles adjusted so there in the place that suits me. I have also replaced alot of hose clips and it turbo spools a lot beter and quicker. About the only job left to do for know is to replace the exhaust Balance pipe as its blowing and I dont think that will help the turbo lag.
Nest job is going to be to be new brake caliper seals and pad all round...
marc
Nest job is going to be to be new brake caliper seals and pad all round...
marc
m.lovell said:
Nest job is going to be to be new brake caliper seals and pad all round...
Oh goodness, here we go again:
If the front caliper seals are shot be careful because you cannot buy them without the pistons, and I believe that they are around £30 each piston. Which leads me on to mentioning that a pair of black 993 front calipers will direct fit the front (on brackets) to increase front pad area and improve brake response, modulation and performance.
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