911 and Porsche world GT3 review
Discussion
grant3 said:
And I prefer to feel that what a car is doing is down to me, and not the computer driving the car driving me.ABS and airbags of course cost nothing in control terms. But as for the rest (ex M3 CSL !) I remain to be convinced.
The point is "watch my lips" on the GT3.... YOU CAN TURN IT OFF FULLY! So what is the problem?
But I still feel on the public roads Porsches traction/stability systems are best left on as a safety net, the limits before they cut in are very high, unlike Merc & BMW systems which do rather nanny the driver..., on track of course disable away!
I understand your viewpoint and can see where you care coming from. I just don't agree. I know it is very fashionable these days for constant nannying on all fronts, but it isn't something that everyone wants. Does Porsche's track car really have to be made as easy to drive as a focus? For some that will be great, for those who relish more of a challenge less so.
>> Edited by DanH on Thursday 20th April 09:57
It should be possible to develop a sophisticated multi stage traction control similar to that on modern Ferraris. In 'race mode' for example, you get no intervention at all until the car is c.20-30 degrees sideways, so it's not nannying you at all until you might need it. And you can always turn it off. Quick progress on standing water is safer in slippery mode should you want it etc
430 Spider said:
It should be possible to develop a sophisticated multi stage traction control similar to that on modern Ferraris. In 'race mode' for example, you get no intervention at all until the car is c.20-30 degrees sideways, so it's not nannying you at all until you might need it. And you can always turn it off. Quick progress on standing water is safer in slippery mode should you want it etc
Yep I aware of all this and I'm sure my argument doesn't seem all that rationale, and somewhat luddite, but I find the idea of a car where you have to be on the ball appealing. Some people can understand that, but it does seem rather a lot can't
It's not like the current 966 GT3 is a deathtrap without these things, it just requires common sense. Having posted that I know I risk being accused of overconfidence in my driving and a testosterone driven macho psychopath
>> Edited by DanH on Thursday 20th April 12:18
grant3 said:
Dan it's simple....
You switch yours off
I'll leave mine on.
That way we are both happy & Porsche has satisfied two different types of customer, it is a win win!
Ah but there is the nub, where you either get it or you don't. I wouldn't switch it off either, but it wouldn't be quite the same type of experience. Every time I get in a more luddite car, mentally I'm thinking 'right, time to wake up'. I don't want to lose that. Although as Glen says this is all banter and none of us have had a drive yet to really know how it will work out. Perhaps the ultimate evolution of this technology will be cars that can't be driven without lots of computer input - the equivalent of a fighter jet which achieves its performance by being so unstable a human couldn't keep it airborn.
>> Edited by DanH on Thursday 20th April 13:41
I paid my first visit to the Rennlist forum this morning and the discussion about the 997 GT3 being too soft was there also. However, people there were rightly agitated over the fact that the US 997 GT3 comes with sunroof without delete option. That agitation is completely understandable. Unnecessary weight in the wrong place that you are simply forced to accept.
What I cannot understand is European people getting worked up about the fact that the 997 GT3 has better driver's aids that can be switched off if you prefer. The reason I can't understand this is that there is a great Porsche solution for you - the purist who wants a completely stripped out street race car without creature comforts or electronics - the upcoming GT3 RS! If you are total purist, why would you even consider the base GT3???
For the rest of us (in Europe) the new GT3 is going to be the perfect car. More comfortable on the road, faster, stronger, a great track car when you want it to be - and importantly far better looking than the outgoing model.
>> Edited by JFT on Thursday 20th April 15:57
What I cannot understand is European people getting worked up about the fact that the 997 GT3 has better driver's aids that can be switched off if you prefer. The reason I can't understand this is that there is a great Porsche solution for you - the purist who wants a completely stripped out street race car without creature comforts or electronics - the upcoming GT3 RS! If you are total purist, why would you even consider the base GT3???
For the rest of us (in Europe) the new GT3 is going to be the perfect car. More comfortable on the road, faster, stronger, a great track car when you want it to be - and importantly far better looking than the outgoing model.
>> Edited by JFT on Thursday 20th April 15:57
There have been enough photos of the Carrera GT on wrecked exotics to prove that it is a "real" drivers car
That is the key if the driver aids can be fully switched off........I hope this is the case, but at the same time will be suprised as in the litigious world we seem to live in ,, someone complains that they lost it when the system was accidentally disengaged....just a thought.
That is the key if the driver aids can be fully switched off........I hope this is the case, but at the same time will be suprised as in the litigious world we seem to live in ,, someone complains that they lost it when the system was accidentally disengaged....just a thought.
I am all for cars with TC/ESP systems provided they can be turned off (fully), since no matter how skilled a driver you are there's bound to be times when you're not on top of your game (late evening, early morning feeling a little tired and less of a hero), it's nice to have a safety net at times. But the problem lies with how easily they can be switched off. I have an M3 CSL which has two stages of DSC intervention; full DSC (which is more lenient than a regular BMW) and then M-track (which is even more lenient). Then of course you can hold the DSC button down for a few seconds and you are free from meddling.
The DSC option I find dangerous since if you naturally correct a slide you can find both you and DSC trying to achieve the same thing and consequently over-correcting a situation (or fish-tailing as you try and work out if DSC has just halted your sideways motion or if in fact traction has been regained and your're about to swing the other way). It's fine for the average driver who's not likely to provoke his car, but is an unpleasant second pair of hands to the experienced driver. M-track mode however is better since it has much higher levels before it intervenes and therefore is less likely to get in the way. What bothers me though is having to keep pressing the bloody buttons every time you restart the car.
In the 997 GT3 as with the CSL, I suspect you will have to get in and then press both 'Sport' and 'PSM OFF' before you get get underway. That's a PITA and I'd much rather it default to the more sporting set-up with the provision that you can soften things if you choose.
The DSC option I find dangerous since if you naturally correct a slide you can find both you and DSC trying to achieve the same thing and consequently over-correcting a situation (or fish-tailing as you try and work out if DSC has just halted your sideways motion or if in fact traction has been regained and your're about to swing the other way). It's fine for the average driver who's not likely to provoke his car, but is an unpleasant second pair of hands to the experienced driver. M-track mode however is better since it has much higher levels before it intervenes and therefore is less likely to get in the way. What bothers me though is having to keep pressing the bloody buttons every time you restart the car.
In the 997 GT3 as with the CSL, I suspect you will have to get in and then press both 'Sport' and 'PSM OFF' before you get get underway. That's a PITA and I'd much rather it default to the more sporting set-up with the provision that you can soften things if you choose.
GuyR said:
The Carrera GT also has the same Traction Control as the 997GT3, which can be also FULLY switched off. Have I missed the threads where everyone said that the CGT is not a proper driver's car because of it..............?
My point is subtle and perhaps so thoroughly subjective no one gets where I'm coming from
I'd never dream of claiming the 997 GT3 wasn't a proper drivers car. I just think the a mild frisson of danger is part of the experience. Would a 993 GT2 have quite the reputation it has earnt without a similar, though even wilder, edge? With cars, I prefer mechanical engineering to electrical engineering. Anyway please don't assume I'm slating the car. I'm not, and I'm sure it will be fabulous. Just a little different to the current model, and in many ways better in most peoples eyes.
Toodle pip,
Biggles signing out!
As a 964 owner the only driver aid I have is Abs, I can take it or leave it, it cuts in so late it really doesnt bother me.
I can't afford a 997 GT3 sadly so my opinion is completely irrelevant, but I do understand both sides of this argument.
The GT3 should be an out and out drivers car, its not a general purpose car thats the carrera. Its not a super safe all wheel drive model thats the C4. Its not the flagship model thats the Turbo, so as a driver car most of which will be trackdayed, a large amount of which will be used purely for track days why have all these driver aids?
I personally feel the only use for them is road driving, particularly if its an every day car that you do a lot of mileage in, and drive when tired, how often have u got tired and made a mistake? We all have thats when these things come in handy, but your a masochist if you use a GT3 for that job anyway.
I have got experience of these systems, I had a similar system in my Alfa, it was linked to the traction control and every time I set off I had to turn it off, otherwise under hard cornering trying to get on the power the engine would just cut on you till you were straight and at times it was damned dangerous losing 70% of your power when you expected it to be there, and the part your discussing drove me insane, engine braking was virtually non existant due to it. I'm sure the porsche system will be better but still............... Drivers car? Drive it then.
I can't afford a 997 GT3 sadly so my opinion is completely irrelevant, but I do understand both sides of this argument.
The GT3 should be an out and out drivers car, its not a general purpose car thats the carrera. Its not a super safe all wheel drive model thats the C4. Its not the flagship model thats the Turbo, so as a driver car most of which will be trackdayed, a large amount of which will be used purely for track days why have all these driver aids?
I personally feel the only use for them is road driving, particularly if its an every day car that you do a lot of mileage in, and drive when tired, how often have u got tired and made a mistake? We all have thats when these things come in handy, but your a masochist if you use a GT3 for that job anyway.
I have got experience of these systems, I had a similar system in my Alfa, it was linked to the traction control and every time I set off I had to turn it off, otherwise under hard cornering trying to get on the power the engine would just cut on you till you were straight and at times it was damned dangerous losing 70% of your power when you expected it to be there, and the part your discussing drove me insane, engine braking was virtually non existant due to it. I'm sure the porsche system will be better but still............... Drivers car? Drive it then.
Fair point by Dan about the driver's aids. The new GT3 will now attract a wider range of drivers, many of whom would not be comfortable driving a powerful car without driver aids. In a sense, that does kind of dilute the GT3 IMO......Ask most current GT3 owners if they miss "helpers" on their car and I'm sure very few will say yes. And if they do, perhaps they're in the wrong type of car.
I still want one - white with black wheels please.
I still want one - white with black wheels please.
clubsport said:
That is the key if the driver aids can be fully switched off........I hope this is the case, but at the same time will be suprised as in the litigious world we seem to live in ,, someone complains that they lost it when the system was accidentally disengaged....just a thought.
Go to www.rennlist.com and look in the Carrera GT Forum thread "CGT lawsuit filed"
34 pages of Yanks (no offence all you chaps from the US of A) debating whether Porsche AG are to blame for the death of a fellow Rennlister because they released a "dangerous" car
AL001 said:
Fair point by Dan about the driver's aids. The new GT3 will now attract a wider range of drivers, many of whom would not be comfortable driving a powerful car without driver aids. In a sense, that does kind of dilute the GT3 IMO......Ask most current GT3 owners if they miss "helpers" on their car and I'm sure very few will say yes. And if they do, perhaps they're in the wrong type of car.
I still want one - white with black wheels please.
Yep, would agree. For those that really don't want to drive a GT3 or whatever, without traction control / torque limiting, it should be possible to default it to all off on startup. If you could do this, can't see the problem having it there. Don't want to use it, don't.
Being about to do this would be bloody handy on say an E39 M5, where the DSC makes quick driving completely funless, even on the road. Having said that, PSM on a 997S in sport mode imho does allow enough slip to still have fun balancing the car, up to a point.
>> Edited by abarber on Thursday 20th April 17:43
My local OPC told me that even heel and toeing is compromised because the electronics will not allow the brake and the accelerator to be in action at the same time, although to avoid rear wheel lock up on high rev chenge downs, the car can apply the accelerator itself whilst you are braking ?
Does this sound like technology taking over ? Or is it at least in part, mis-information ?
I do agree on the switchability, but there always seems to be so much that can't be switched off --- unless you know how to force the car to do it.
And then there's the issue of all this extra stuff to go wrong and need repairing.
Also the issue of messing around mid journey --- did you leave the traction control on or off, if on may you be fighting it as Doctor D suggested, and how well will the new suspension management work ? (the concensus with the 997s -20mm against the PASM system seemed to be that the lowered sports supension was preferrable).
Finally, I really will be interested to see how it performs --- I've seen the power output quoted at both 415 and 425 bhp with the Mk II at 375 and 381 bhp, whilst most recent MkII's seem to have much nearer 400 bhp.
As mentioned more than once, maybe we all need to be patient.
But it's fun speculating --- I just hope that Porsche are reading this stuff and taking note !
Does this sound like technology taking over ? Or is it at least in part, mis-information ?
I do agree on the switchability, but there always seems to be so much that can't be switched off --- unless you know how to force the car to do it.
And then there's the issue of all this extra stuff to go wrong and need repairing.
Also the issue of messing around mid journey --- did you leave the traction control on or off, if on may you be fighting it as Doctor D suggested, and how well will the new suspension management work ? (the concensus with the 997s -20mm against the PASM system seemed to be that the lowered sports supension was preferrable).
Finally, I really will be interested to see how it performs --- I've seen the power output quoted at both 415 and 425 bhp with the Mk II at 375 and 381 bhp, whilst most recent MkII's seem to have much nearer 400 bhp.
As mentioned more than once, maybe we all need to be patient.
But it's fun speculating --- I just hope that Porsche are reading this stuff and taking note !
I have to say I read this article and thought I want one. It looks the absolute dogs ...
I even went to the trouble of speccing one up on the Porsche configurator, but I think my wife would kill me if I spent 80K on a car. Twice (the killing that is).
Also no rear seats is a bit of a problem ... oh well.
I even went to the trouble of speccing one up on the Porsche configurator, but I think my wife would kill me if I spent 80K on a car. Twice (the killing that is).
Also no rear seats is a bit of a problem ... oh well.
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