Lightweight GT3RS
Discussion
Mark_H said:
richardb.jones said:
I doubt the RS will have any surplus 'fat' - I've removed near 80Kg from my C4 - all rear seats,carpets,side panels, front storage carpets, plastics etc Removed another 20Kg by removing the A/C (totally), replaced the battery with a much smaller one 45Ah vs 80Ah (saving 3Kg..)
Car now sounds like a cup car inside but sounds great ! Only issue is putting it all back together again ... ;-)
PS - Disagree entirely on the 'waste of time' post - I have noticed a significant change in the way the car handles, brakes and is generally more 'nimble' even if it has only lost 100ish Kg's (on a heavy C4). Two C2S's at Bedford the other week certainly didn't believe it was a standard (but lightended) 300BHP C4 when I passed them ... :
Car now sounds like a cup car inside but sounds great ! Only issue is putting it all back together again ... ;-)
PS - Disagree entirely on the 'waste of time' post - I have noticed a significant change in the way the car handles, brakes and is generally more 'nimble' even if it has only lost 100ish Kg's (on a heavy C4). Two C2S's at Bedford the other week certainly didn't believe it was a standard (but lightended) 300BHP C4 when I passed them ... :
How Steve chooses to spend his money is non of my business - I am just trying to understand the rationale behind stripping an already very fast track car! An alternative is that he could sell the GT3 RS and buy a cup car which would be quicker and pocket the difference!
Re. stripping your car, each to their own... but sounds like you will be drving around in a very hot and noisy tin can when not on track!
its not my car and its not my money either!
Is it worth the 20kg saving to take the a/c out?
In my experience of trackdays having the a/c on full blast before going out cools the cabin, making it more comfortable, easier to concentrate, plus you can stay out on track longer.
I have been on track with decent drivers in cuppies who have had to come in after 10 mins, because they,,,,,,,not the car were too hot.
For the sake of 20kg I will be leaving the a/c in my tin box
In my experience of trackdays having the a/c on full blast before going out cools the cabin, making it more comfortable, easier to concentrate, plus you can stay out on track longer.
I have been on track with decent drivers in cuppies who have had to come in after 10 mins, because they,,,,,,,not the car were too hot.
For the sake of 20kg I will be leaving the a/c in my tin box
Mark_H said:
steve rance said:
We are working on shedding 100kg from the 996GT3RS. That will bring a non aircon car down to 1230KGs.... Which will be nice!
Will keep you guys updated.
Will keep you guys updated.
Are you racing the car?
If not, why are you wasting your money trying to gain tengths on a track day?
Even if your aim is to go that bit quicker and if I remember correctly you tow your car to most tracks, then why don't you just buy a cup car? Seriously though
If a driver is regularly tracking a GT3RS he will find his consumables bill very heavy compared to earliers Rs's. Surplus weight helps eat those consumables and profoundly effects the dynamics of the car. Everything is a balance and a lot of RS owners wouldn't be interested in shedding 100KG. After driving Timbo's car, it shows just how good the car can be... just beautiful. I think that a lot of owners would be interested..
Anyway, I'll let you guys know how it goes.
clubsport said:
Is it worth the 20kg saving to take the a/c out?
In my experience of trackdays having the a/c on full blast before going out cools the cabin, making it more comfortable, easier to concentrate, plus you can stay out on track longer.
I have been on track with decent drivers in cuppies who have had to come in after 10 mins, because they,,,,,,,not the car were too hot.
For the sake of 20kg I will be leaving the a/c in my tin box
In my experience of trackdays having the a/c on full blast before going out cools the cabin, making it more comfortable, easier to concentrate, plus you can stay out on track longer.
I have been on track with decent drivers in cuppies who have had to come in after 10 mins, because they,,,,,,,not the car were too hot.
For the sake of 20kg I will be leaving the a/c in my tin box
You can always open the windows & vents ..
I went through this thought process with my car i.e. go really lightweight.
The problem is that if you go really really lightweight, you end up with a race-car that is a real pain to drive on the road, at which point it would have been cheaper, easier and quicker to start with a racecar (as has been mentioned).
In terms of losing weight, if you are starting with a GT3 (or 2), then the easy weight-saving has already been done. Removing the carpets does not save much, as I believe they are quite light in the GT cars. A lighter battery is an easy win, as long as you are prepared to run a battery maintainer, since the race batteries run flat within a few days. Carbon bodypanels are good, but don’t save as much as I thought they would, the front wings only save 6kg each etc, so you really have to replace a lot in carbon to save a big amount of weight. Carbon doorskins will save weight (10kg each), but then you really need doorbars on the roll-cage, which adds weight back in. If you replace the doors with the full carbon/macrolon one piece doors, with only sliding windows, you'll save decent weight (25kg per door), but then it's less of a road car ie no decent windows. Deleting the a/c - I wouldn't - trips to the 'ring and Spa would be a real pain in the summer heat without a/c and it's great to have on the track to keep the driver cool (it's a trackday afterall not a race). Delete heating - what in the UK? - no way, who wants to shiver on track and getting there….. Delete Stereo - again quite an easy one but nice for the journeies to far-away tracks, especially if it has Satnav built in (ie Porsche/Becker TrafficPro for the same weight). The GT3RS already has the rear plastic window and plastic side rears will only save a couple of kg at most. Carbon wheels and brakes to save rotating mass would be best, but as we know PCCBs don't last on track and pure carbon is no good on the road.
Good luck though gentlemen, I do look forward to hearing what you get it down to.
Guy
PS You'll have to get it down to 900kg to match my old power/weight ratio, let alone my new one
The problem is that if you go really really lightweight, you end up with a race-car that is a real pain to drive on the road, at which point it would have been cheaper, easier and quicker to start with a racecar (as has been mentioned).
In terms of losing weight, if you are starting with a GT3 (or 2), then the easy weight-saving has already been done. Removing the carpets does not save much, as I believe they are quite light in the GT cars. A lighter battery is an easy win, as long as you are prepared to run a battery maintainer, since the race batteries run flat within a few days. Carbon bodypanels are good, but don’t save as much as I thought they would, the front wings only save 6kg each etc, so you really have to replace a lot in carbon to save a big amount of weight. Carbon doorskins will save weight (10kg each), but then you really need doorbars on the roll-cage, which adds weight back in. If you replace the doors with the full carbon/macrolon one piece doors, with only sliding windows, you'll save decent weight (25kg per door), but then it's less of a road car ie no decent windows. Deleting the a/c - I wouldn't - trips to the 'ring and Spa would be a real pain in the summer heat without a/c and it's great to have on the track to keep the driver cool (it's a trackday afterall not a race). Delete heating - what in the UK? - no way, who wants to shiver on track and getting there….. Delete Stereo - again quite an easy one but nice for the journeies to far-away tracks, especially if it has Satnav built in (ie Porsche/Becker TrafficPro for the same weight). The GT3RS already has the rear plastic window and plastic side rears will only save a couple of kg at most. Carbon wheels and brakes to save rotating mass would be best, but as we know PCCBs don't last on track and pure carbon is no good on the road.
Good luck though gentlemen, I do look forward to hearing what you get it down to.
Guy
PS You'll have to get it down to 900kg to match my old power/weight ratio, let alone my new one
Edited by GuyR on Friday 28th July 17:06
richardb.jones said:
Car is a track mule so not an issue
clubsport said:
For the sake of 20kg I will be leaving the a/c in my tin box
If the car is a "track mule" then fair enough!
steve rance said:
its not my car and its not my money either!
Interesting, puts an altogether different slant on it!
steve rance said:
If a driver is regularly tracking a GT3RS he will find his consumables bill very heavy compared to earliers Rs's. Surplus weight helps eat those consumables and profoundly effects the dynamics of the car. Everything is a balance and a lot of RS owners wouldn't be interested in shedding 100KG. After driving Timbo's car, it shows just how good the car can be... just beautiful. I think that a lot of owners would be interested..
If it was your car, and your money then i would still be asking the same question - why not buy a cup car - cheaper to buy and run!
steve rance said:
Anyway, I'll let you guys know how it goes.
Good luck with the project!
That's an enormously difficult thing to do.
There will be very few electric motors you can do away with. Body panels and wheels will start to effect quality. Wheel hubs, discs, internal body panels, looms, lights might yield 30 kilos but at what cost and the car will never be the same again.
There will be very few electric motors you can do away with. Body panels and wheels will start to effect quality. Wheel hubs, discs, internal body panels, looms, lights might yield 30 kilos but at what cost and the car will never be the same again.
As an exercise this may be something interesting for you to do but for most trackday drivers, the limiting factor is them and not the car. I cant see many people wanting to follow suit. The only people that this will make a difference to would be those that are good enough to race and they would be better off with a cup car.
Let's suppose that Porsche did this from new.
Just didn't add half the stuff that makes a finished car.
Maybe with a Cayman that's strong, weighs less to start with and has a better fore aft balance --- even if we do all enjoy driving around the 35 : 65 split.
GT3 engine, the latest Pccb brakes, aircon, minimum stereo, plastic windows, minimum door mechanisms, aluminium skins, webbing door pulls, carbon bucket seats, --- no roll bars unless you want to race, no spare wheel or ancilliaries (call the AA), minimum sound proofing but some floor covering.
Imagine the profit on each car at £65k.
And fast ? Handling ?
Driving dream come true.
And you could probably make the thing do 30 mpg !
Just didn't add half the stuff that makes a finished car.
Maybe with a Cayman that's strong, weighs less to start with and has a better fore aft balance --- even if we do all enjoy driving around the 35 : 65 split.
GT3 engine, the latest Pccb brakes, aircon, minimum stereo, plastic windows, minimum door mechanisms, aluminium skins, webbing door pulls, carbon bucket seats, --- no roll bars unless you want to race, no spare wheel or ancilliaries (call the AA), minimum sound proofing but some floor covering.
Imagine the profit on each car at £65k.
And fast ? Handling ?
Driving dream come true.
And you could probably make the thing do 30 mpg !
ChrisW. said:
Let's suppose that Porsche did this from new.
Just didn't add half the stuff that makes a finished car.
Maybe with a Cayman that's strong, weighs less to start with and has a better fore aft balance --- even if we do all enjoy driving around the 35 : 65 split.
GT3 engine, the latest Pccb brakes, aircon, minimum stereo, plastic windows, minimum door mechanisms, aluminium skins, webbing door pulls, carbon bucket seats, --- no roll bars unless you want to race, no spare wheel or ancilliaries (call the AA), minimum sound proofing but some floor covering.
Imagine the profit on each car at £65k.
And fast ? Handling ?
Driving dream come true.
And you could probably make the thing do 30 mpg !
Just didn't add half the stuff that makes a finished car.
Maybe with a Cayman that's strong, weighs less to start with and has a better fore aft balance --- even if we do all enjoy driving around the 35 : 65 split.
GT3 engine, the latest Pccb brakes, aircon, minimum stereo, plastic windows, minimum door mechanisms, aluminium skins, webbing door pulls, carbon bucket seats, --- no roll bars unless you want to race, no spare wheel or ancilliaries (call the AA), minimum sound proofing but some floor covering.
Imagine the profit on each car at £65k.
And fast ? Handling ?
Driving dream come true.
And you could probably make the thing do 30 mpg !
I think you need to check the starting weight of the cayman. I was surprised!
ChrisW. said:
1285 Kg ? But that's with al the "stuff"
I stand to be corrected !
I stand to be corrected !
Sadly no...
Cayman S (without options)
Unladen weight (DIN) 1,350 kg
Unladen weight (EC directive) 1,425 kg
(www.porsche.com/uk/models/cayman/cayman-s/featuresandspecs/)
996 GT3 RS (debate as to whether this includes the cage etc, probably should as they are standard fitment)
Unladen weight (DIN)* 1,360 kg
Unladen weight (EC)** 1,435 kg
The Cayman is suprisingly lardy.
S1XXR said:
If you add up the gains from the mods listed so far you save pretty close to 100kg's...carbon doors and panels being the starting point.
i dont see that.
full carbon/perspex doors might save 25 kg each, but then you need door bars on the cage.
so say 15kg each or 30kg. still got to find another 70kg... carpets arnt that heavy.
willr said:
DanH said:
The Cayman is suprisingly lardy.
But according to those figures it's lighter than a GT3RS...
Barely, and I was just pointing out that Caymans aren't really light at all, despite people seeming to assume they are. By the time you've specced up your Cayman I can bet its heavier than the RS too (those weights apparently do include the RSs cage etc).
francisb said:
S1XXR said:
If you add up the gains from the mods listed so far you save pretty close to 100kg's...carbon doors and panels being the starting point.
i dont see that.
full carbon/perspex doors might save 25 kg each, but then you need door bars on the cage.
so say 15kg each or 30kg. still got to find another 70kg... carpets arnt that heavy.
Carbon panels all round, seats, lightweight headers and exhaust, PCCB, carbon wheels, smaller battery, lights, dampers...and aircon. That'll get you close to 100 kilos.
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