carrera 4s Advice
Discussion
kamal996 said:
[quote=grant3]
To once again clarify my position on sports chassis
My own use of my Porsche means that I cannot get to anywhere near or past 7/10ths of its performance as I would likely lose my license for reckless driving. I may have the oppotunity to do so for 1% of the time...say on track days.
The opportunities for accessing the last 3/10 are so few that the compromise in terms of ride quality on the appaling roads of London do not justify a sports chassis. All that happens is that you drive around in a car that is unable to damp out bumps and skips off line at the mere sign of a bump. Handling in even slow corners becomes a challenge becasue the car cannot smooth out mid corner bumps.
NOW....If I lived in an area that had great roads OR if I used the car for lots of track days then I would happily buy another Porsche with Sports Chassis and 18" wheels. You are correct in that the car does handle more precisely
This is the exact advice I have provided..ie go and drive the car on local roads and see how you find it.
No one on this board can deny that the sports chassis causes a deterioration in ride on medicore roads and similarly I cannot say that it doesnt improve handling in the right circumstances.
I point this out in the same way that you state that the Targa roof can be noisy but some people are accepting of the compromise for the overall benefit.
...Kamal - I must say, I don't recognise the characteristics of the sport chassis as described by you. I have the sports suspension and have found the car to have exemplary handling on most UK road surfaces. Obviously the ride is slightly harsher than the stock suspension (which I had on my car for 6 months before changing to sports).
Are you sure your experience isn't of another aftermarket sports suspension (e.g. H&R coilovers), or the more extreme Porsche sports suspension that lowers the car 30mm-40mm?
I don't think you need to be travelling at 7/10's to experience the benefit of the sports suspension - exiting roundabouts briskly, negotiating motorway on/off ramps, fast country lanes etc. All of these show up the softness of the stock suspension. IMHO, the 10mm lowering is how stock SHOULD have been, with the soft suspension as an option for people who preferred the ride in their Merc of Lexus.
If standard suspension was such a bad thing, I am sure Porsche would have realised and made all the cars with sports suspension. I am with Kamal on this one. The standard suspension is what we have on most cars sold worldwide and only a few change their cars' suspension or buy a car with sports suspension. This must make you think!
Not a good day for a porsche dealership visit....
Went along to dealership, to have a browse at a few cars, see if they would fit the bill doing the usual checking space in back sitting inside, checking the luggage space between the targa and C4S.
I was talking to one dealership Rep going ok not pushy beoing v.helpful. Then a second rep came over and said can you leave the dealership Sir. We do not want children buying our Cars.. CAN YOU LEAVE..
I at this point went Mad at him by saying who the hell do you thinkyou are speaking to. He returned saying to me yo cant afford a car from here leave or i will call security.
I leave said dealership return to my friends car and procedd to call the manager.. Sorry the branch manager is not here today but i pass you to the acting manager of the day. Get passed over (its the same person that told me to leave the dealership.
I own the company that installed and maintain the CCTV system of the dealership and say i am going past the dealership and can come and do a freee system check. he agrees i say ok i wil bring my ID you gave me, please wait outside i will there in 5 minutes....
I get out of my friends car(Silver 355) 5 mins later show him the ID and go up to the office and check the CCTV system and give it a good bill of health for the coming few months...
He says to me dont tell anyone what i said earlier or i will get the sack.
Left without saying a word.
Should i complain i did record his insulence on my mobile phone so can prove he said it to me..
Steve
PS It looks like if you dont where a suit to the dealership they treat you like this. This is the second time this has happened to me.
Went along to dealership, to have a browse at a few cars, see if they would fit the bill doing the usual checking space in back sitting inside, checking the luggage space between the targa and C4S.
I was talking to one dealership Rep going ok not pushy beoing v.helpful. Then a second rep came over and said can you leave the dealership Sir. We do not want children buying our Cars.. CAN YOU LEAVE..
I at this point went Mad at him by saying who the hell do you thinkyou are speaking to. He returned saying to me yo cant afford a car from here leave or i will call security.
I leave said dealership return to my friends car and procedd to call the manager.. Sorry the branch manager is not here today but i pass you to the acting manager of the day. Get passed over (its the same person that told me to leave the dealership.
I own the company that installed and maintain the CCTV system of the dealership and say i am going past the dealership and can come and do a freee system check. he agrees i say ok i wil bring my ID you gave me, please wait outside i will there in 5 minutes....
I get out of my friends car(Silver 355) 5 mins later show him the ID and go up to the office and check the CCTV system and give it a good bill of health for the coming few months...
He says to me dont tell anyone what i said earlier or i will get the sack.
Left without saying a word.
Should i complain i did record his insulence on my mobile phone so can prove he said it to me..
Steve
PS It looks like if you dont where a suit to the dealership they treat you like this. This is the second time this has happened to me.
Write to Andy Goss at Porsche UK personally. Give him all the facts and let him know that this community is receiving more and more negative comments about the attitude of OPCs and this guy isn't helping. I'd want his head for what he did to you. NB geographically wise, in general terms as it were...where is this dealership?
targa said:
If standard suspension was such a bad thing, I am sure Porsche would have realised and made all the cars with sports suspension. I am with Kamal on this one. The standard suspension is what we have on most cars sold worldwide and only a few change their cars' suspension or buy a car with sports suspension. This must make you think!
...Porsche always had their eye primarily on the US market with the 996 - so they needed the car to be roomier and 'softer'.
Unfortunately, the fact that most 996's are sold with stock suspension is because they are probably not bought by 'enthusiasts', or during a 45 min test drive, you cannot really appreciate the flaws in the stock suspension. It is debateable whether the stock car's 17" wheels need to be upgraded to 18's, but the sports suspension is a must (IMHO) for the most satisfying driving experience.
...each to their own, though!
targa said:
Unfortunately, the fact that most 996's are sold with stock suspension is because they are probably not bought by 'enthusiasts', or during a 45 min test drive, you cannot really appreciate the flaws in the stock suspension. It is debateable whether the stock car's 17" wheels need to be upgraded to 18's, but the sports suspension is a must (IMHO) for the most satisfying driving experience.
...each to their own, though!
I can imagine the sports chassis working well with 17" alloys..the sidewalls would provide the compliance required. It when it is mixed with 18" alloys that the problems occur. Here is my experience
993 with Sports suspension and 17" alloys-wonderful-positive handling, great damping and grip-very positive "at one" feeling with the car.
Boxster 2.5 with sports suspension and 18" wheels-limpet like grip on smooth corners but cannot cope with bumps on bends and simply skips off line. Steering very prone to tramling and car steering felt imprecise at speed. Ride was truely the worst I have ever experienced and a stark contrast to a Lotus Elise I had previously owned (now there is a car that can handle and ride well!)
Boxster 2.5 with standard suspension and 17"-perfect-balanced chassis, great ride, perfectly weighted steering. Confirmed that the one above was the most stupid choice that both I and the first owner who was obviously an "enthusiast" had ever made
996 C4 standard with 18" wheels. Good ride quality, handling is exceptional. Could not imagine needing anything more for day to day use and enthusiastic "off motorway ramp" driving. Steering no where near as good as a std Boxster with 17" wheels. Guess the 4 wheel drive gubbins has some effect.
YES I do enjoy the ride quality provided by a BMW or Mercedes. What I enjoy even more is the efforts of a good chassis engineer to provide both. What I then dislike is a bunch of marketeers insisting on making the cars lower and providing bigger wheels on options list.
The C4S is a wonderful looking car but in reality its pretty cynical and the marketeers realised this hence speccing it with sports suspension. A standard 996 is probably quicker as it weighs less and probably has better aerodynamics (doenst look as nice though!!!!!)
In terms of buying the car..how else can one make a choice other than a 45 min test drive? The reasons that most cars have stock suspenison is that Porshche dealers do not recommmend the set up to customers and try to talk them out of it as all they often recieved complaints about poor ride. Their own test drivers also admit that the suspension is not particularly good, especially with 18" weels (spoke to them at a Boxster S "Experience" Day). My view on this is..I am about to make the salesman £1500 richer...I guess I ought to take some of his advice.
In terms of the US issue-that is nonsense. US buyers are extremely demanding and hugely polarized when it comes to spending so much on a car. Cars with similar performance to a Porsche are often much cheaper and so they are very demanding. Go to Rennlist if you want to see hardcore Porsche 996 owners...
rubystone said:
Write to Andy Goss at Porsche UK personally. Give him all the facts and let him know that this community is receiving more and more negative comments about the attitude of OPCs and this guy isn't helping. I'd want his head for what he did to you. NB geographically wise, in general terms as it were...where is this dealership?
Know Andy Goss from his Toyota days, always a bloke to call a spade a spade, dont think he would have much truck with this Sales guys attitude
mustard said:
[quote=rubystone]Write to Andy Goss at Porsche UK personally. Give him all the facts and let him know that this community is receiving more and more negative comments about the attitude of OPCs and this guy isn't helping. I'd want his head for what he did to you. NB geographically wise, in general terms as it were...where is this dealership?
I am finding it difficult to believe this story...I am hardly a conventional Porsche buyer....but have always been treated with real courtesy at any dealership I have visited..to the extent that I have been invited to track days and motorshow etc. The last time I went to look at a car I was 30 years old, driving an M reg Omega estate as a "smoker" and was dressed in jeans and a T shirt but was still well treated.
The days of conventiality are gone..who knows who has money and with so much finance around and 10% deposit almost anyone with a half decdent job can purchase a Porsche. I know one person who lived in a £50k house and bought a £42k Boxster..INSANE...but achievable. £4k down and about £600 a month I think he pays.
In fact I think Porsche garages are very used to all this as its ususally the first purchase of any youngster who suddenly comes into money.
STeve..perhaps you could provide some CCTV evidence
What everyone should write to Andy whoever about is the ridiculous mark up they put on used cars!
>> Edited by kamal996 on Monday 29th December 13:43
When i first walked in the one sales guy said do you need any help blah blah blah, showing me round the cars that you all suggested no problems at all. gave me more advice etc plus showed me around the used one they had in, and said about finance etc plus when you do decide gave me times for new ones but also said that the used ones have the balance of warrenty and can be preped for delivery in 7 days..
The sales guy that was a w*nker i have saw him before but cant remember where. So it could be someone who already hates me and wanted me out of there face
I know ive seen him before just gotta think where. I think it was in the porsche dealership in northampton a few years ago but cant garentee it.
Will be writing a complaint to porsche regarding this persons attitude, The manager there is ok done a few business deals with him regarding CCTV & also home AV installation so may give him a call next week to see what this guys problem was. I am not going to name the dealership because of Teds policy in naming and shaming...
Im not taking it to heart as something similar happened in a BMW dealership a few weeks ago. Took the wife and kids in to see a Used X5 that and got treated like crap. Ended up going to Merc instead but didnt like the M-class.
Steve
The sales guy that was a w*nker i have saw him before but cant remember where. So it could be someone who already hates me and wanted me out of there face
I know ive seen him before just gotta think where. I think it was in the porsche dealership in northampton a few years ago but cant garentee it.
Will be writing a complaint to porsche regarding this persons attitude, The manager there is ok done a few business deals with him regarding CCTV & also home AV installation so may give him a call next week to see what this guys problem was. I am not going to name the dealership because of Teds policy in naming and shaming...
Im not taking it to heart as something similar happened in a BMW dealership a few weeks ago. Took the wife and kids in to see a Used X5 that and got treated like crap. Ended up going to Merc instead but didnt like the M-class.
Steve
kamal996 said:
[quote=rubystone]Write to Andy Goss at Porsche UK personally. Give him all the facts and let him know that this community is receiving more and more negative comments about the attitude of OPCs and this guy isn't helping. I'd want his head for what he did to you. NB geographically wise, in general terms as it were...where is this dealership?
I am finding it difficult to believe this story...I am hardly a conventional Porsche buyer....but have always been treated with real courtesy at any dealership I have visited..to the extent that I have been invited to track days and motorshow etc. The last time I went to look at a car I was 30 years old, driving an M reg Omega estate as a "smoker" and was dressed in jeans and a T shirt but was still well treated.
The days of conventiality are gone..who knows who has money and with so much finance around and 10% deposit almost anyone with a half decdent job can purchase a Porsche. I know one person who lived in a £50k house and bought a £42k Boxster..INSANE...but achievable. £4k down and about £600 a month I think he pays.
In fact I think Porsche garages are very used to all this as its ususally the first purchase of any youngster who suddenly comes into money.
STeve..perhaps you could provide some CCTV evidence
What everyone should write to Andy whoever about is the ridiculous mark up they put on used cars!
>> Edited by kamal996 on Monday 29th December 13:43
Just got a phone call from the managher of the dealership and i have been invited back after new year for a test drive in the Targa and the C4S plus apologies about this sales man Attitude aparently this is not the first time this has happened.
I am only 24 married. Somehow dont think it went down well when i was looking round a new porsche.
Steve
I know what Kamal is getting at. I also think there is some confusion over what is factory sports suspension and what it not.
My C4 sits 10mm lower on 18'' turbo alloys. The ride is OK but on rough country roads it can tramline. I noticed that a courtesy facelift C2 i drove with standard suspension and 17'' wheels actually felt more compliant and indeed faster over the same road.
As kamal says, it is important to drive both over your favourite roads before making a decision.
In general though, I think this is a weakness of German chassis engineering. German cars feel optimised for billiard- table smooth roads, and so they are not perfect on country roads in the UK. Compared to a friends Lotus Esprit V8 ( which is somehow soft but firm, compliant but without rolling) the Porsche feels a handful on bumpy lanes when you are pressing on.
My C4 sits 10mm lower on 18'' turbo alloys. The ride is OK but on rough country roads it can tramline. I noticed that a courtesy facelift C2 i drove with standard suspension and 17'' wheels actually felt more compliant and indeed faster over the same road.
As kamal says, it is important to drive both over your favourite roads before making a decision.
In general though, I think this is a weakness of German chassis engineering. German cars feel optimised for billiard- table smooth roads, and so they are not perfect on country roads in the UK. Compared to a friends Lotus Esprit V8 ( which is somehow soft but firm, compliant but without rolling) the Porsche feels a handful on bumpy lanes when you are pressing on.
toppstuff said:
I know what Kamal is getting at. I also think there is some confusion over what is factory sports suspension and what it not.
My C4 sits 10mm lower on 18'' turbo alloys. The ride is OK but on rough country roads it can tramline. I noticed that a courtesy facelift C2 i drove with standard suspension and 17'' wheels actually felt more compliant and indeed faster over the same road.
As kamal says, it is important to drive both over your favourite roads before making a decision.
In general though, I think this is a weakness of German chassis engineering. German cars feel optimised for billiard- table smooth roads, and so they are not perfect on country roads in the UK. Compared to a friends Lotus Esprit V8 ( which is somehow soft but firm, compliant but without rolling) the Porsche feels a handful on bumpy lanes when you are pressing on.
Thanks topstuff...you are have hit the nail on the head exactly. It takes a brave person to admit that after getting "manly" sports chassis and big wheels, that a standard car somehow feels better on poor UK roads. As you say, however, on lovely smooth roads the outcome is wonderful...shame we dont have many! I live near to Tower Bridge in London and there are some truely awful roads in the Capital. I loved the Boxster I had in terms of colour and condition but had to get rid of it in the end becasue it was so bad.
stevieb said:
I am only 24 married. Somehow dont think it went down well when i was looking round a new porsche.
Steve
The plot thickens..have you had an insurance quote..I cannot think of many companies that will cover a 4S for a 24 year old??
>> Edited by kamal996 on Monday 29th December 15:51
I sometimes wish the fashion for big wheels would pass. The trend for ultra low profile tires is also a problem, because the side walls are now so stiff that the ride is ruined.
People should realise that just because a ride is firm and bumpy does not mean it is somehow more "sporty". For proof look at what Lotus have been doing for years.
My friends Esprit is an old nail but following it on a bumpy country road is a revelation. You can see the wheels bobbling up and down while the chassis and body remain flat and composed.
And I just cannot hope to keep up with him..
People should realise that just because a ride is firm and bumpy does not mean it is somehow more "sporty". For proof look at what Lotus have been doing for years.
My friends Esprit is an old nail but following it on a bumpy country road is a revelation. You can see the wheels bobbling up and down while the chassis and body remain flat and composed.
And I just cannot hope to keep up with him..
kamal996 said:
I am only 24 married. Somehow dont think it went down well when i was looking round a new porsche.
Steve
The plot thickens..have you had an insurance quote..I cannot think of many companies that will cover a 4S for a 24 year old??
>> Edited by kamal996 on Monday 29th December 15:51
English was never my strong Point plus had a few beers and wines at lunch time.
Got insurance in place not botherabout that, got insurance on a cerbera when i was 21. Current quote for a C4s in 1300 with 250 excess and NO Trackday cover. Got to look else where for that.
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