996 GT3 investment according to Sunday Times

[Slippydiff]

supermono said:

I still can't for the life of me understand why the (albeit superb) GT3 keeps getting press coverage whilst the GT2 barely gets a mention.

The GT2 is faster (massively so!) rarer, better looking, etc, etc. In fact in every measurable way it's better.

For these reasons I'm pretty confident that in the next few years enough people will open their eyes to the tremendous GT2 that it'll become properly collectable.

Hell there's probably fewer than 100 RHD GT2s in existance now, how much rarer do you want???

SM

Ultimate speed has nothing to do with whether a car appreciates or depreciates !
Rarity ? The Alfa Romeo SV is rare, but do I hanker for one ?
Looks are subjective.

supermono said:

In fact in every measureable way it's better

Subjective

Slippydiff said:

It's modified X50 996 Turbo which the beancounters thought they could turn a (massive) profit on without the expense of the R & D the MK 1 GT3 was subjected to by the Motorsport department

Subjective also (perhaps) . . . .

Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 4th January 21:33

[mayes911]

in 10 years time there could be no more petrol /£5 a litre or the gov. will have some supertax for anything putting out more than c02 99gkm therefor our cars will become absolutley worthless.imho no car is going to be an investment anymore take a look at ferraris use to have rock solid residuals f430 for 65k and dropping.

[gwasoc]

mayes911 said:

imho no car is going to be a true investment anymore take a look at ferraris use to have rock solid residuals f430 for 65k and dropping.

10 years? Try now. I drive and track my car (as it should be used) therefore it has maintanence costs, insurance costs, road user costs, tyres etc, etc, etc. Perhaps one day I might be able to sell it for more than I paid for it, but as an investment?? It would make more sense to have invested in the Bank of Scotland pre crash...

I wonder how many '73 RS's have actually, truly made money for their owners, once the cost of storage, insurance and refurbishment are accounted for.

[johnny senna]

gwasoc said:

I wonder how many '73 RS's have actually, truly made money for their owners, once the cost of storage, insurance and refurbishment are accounted for.

That is an excellent point.
I made 30 grand on my 993RS, but I spent 14 grand on an engine rebuild/car overhaul which ate into my profit, and one year's track days probably cost 10 grand.

[Steve Rance]

johnny senna said:

Slippydiff said:

johnny senna said:

jeremyc said:

johnny senna said:

I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.

On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.

In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.

Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?

not sure I agree with you Johnny. The 996 and 997 GT3's are very different cars indeed and I think that you are mistaken in your assumption that they are similar. Having driven a 964 RS and a 993 RS I would say that there is probably more difference in the driving exprerience between the 996 and 997 GT3's. The 996 GT3 will be regarded as the last in the line of extreme 911's that relied completely on the driver to extact thier performance having no electronic driver aids. In terms of rarity, the 996 Gt3's will be very rare cars compared to the 997 cars and beyond. The 996RS is one of the rarest 911's ever made being only 500 world wide. I can see 996RS's following the 993 and 964's before them within 5 years.

Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play.

Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it)

Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion)

The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS.
Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO
)
The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway)

I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after.

Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . )

We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ?

I still think the 996 GT3 is much closer in size/character etc to a 997 GT3 than either a 993 or 964 RS. I reckon the beards will encourage the value of the mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS to go up, but the beards cannot work miracles. The price rise for the mark 1 996 GT3 and RS will be modest at best. Say 50 grand for a good mark 1 GT3 in a few years and 65 grand for the RS. But in a few years, people with sense will realise that a 997 GT3 is much better value for less money (in say 3-6 years time) and choose a 997 over a 996, hence the demand for the mark 1 GT3 will not be as high as it has been for the 993/964RS and its value will not rise quite so high.
The other reason 964/993 RSs are really valuable is that they feel closer to the old expensive gear like the '73 RS. The interiors feel very similar, so does the upright windscreen right on front of your nose, and these factors somehow help buyers justify the mega values of the rarer lightweight aircooled stuff. When you sit in a 996/997, the cars feel massive in comparison, a different car altogether. I think this makes it harder for collectors to justify paying daft money for them.

So, I predict:

Modest price rises for mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS, say 50K and 65-70K respectively in 5-10 years.
All other 996 and 997 GT3 values will drop as time goes by and then stabilise. All of these cars will have their values negatively affected by every new GT3 model that emerges, as it surely will over time (e.g. 998 GT3, 998 GT3 RS). It is inevitable.

not sure I agree with you Johnny. The 996 and 997 GT3's are very different cars indeed and I think that you are mistaken in your assumption that they are similar. Having driven a 964 RS and a 993 RS I would say that there is probably more difference in the driving exprerience between the 996 and 997 GT3's. The 996 GT3 will be regarded as the last in the line of extreme 911's that relied completely on the driver to extact thier performance having no electronic driver aids. In terms of rarity, the 996 Gt3's will be very rare cars compared to the 997 cars and beyond. The 996RS is one of the rarest 911's ever made being only 500 world wide. I can see 996RS's following the 993 and 964RS before them within 5 years.

[Slippydiff]

Slippydiff said:

The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway)

Steve Rance said:

not sure I agree with you Johnny. The 996 and 997 GT3's are very different cars indeed and I think that you are mistaken in your assumption that they are similar. Having driven a 964 RS and a 993 RS I would say that there is probably more difference in the driving exprerience between the 996 and 997 GT3's. The 996 GT3 will be regarded as the last in the line of extreme 911's that relied completely on the driver to extact thier performance having no electronic driver aids. In terms of rarity, the 996 Gt3's will be very rare cars compared to the 997 cars and beyond. The 996RS is one of the rarest 911's ever made being only 500 world wide. I can see 996RS's following the 993 and 964RS before them within 5 years

[996Weissach]

johnny senna said:

These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2).

Interesting this because it depends on by which measurments you take. Yes the 7GT3 is quicker round the Nurburgring, has more power, stops faster, but is it better?

The same could be said for the 2.7RS vs the 964RS. The former being the more highly regarded car yet is slower, more flexible, doesn't stop as well etc.

"This is better than that" is a very grey area in the phenomenon that is the 911. The measurements are evidently not about bare statistics, but feel, specialness, connectivity, thrill... My first 100 yards in a 6GT3 was all it took to convince me I wanted one, and this was at legal road speeds.

[PaulRothwell]

Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are:

. adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo
. modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood.
. different engine block from standard turbo
. rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit
. no four wheel drive
. no traction control
. approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo
. bigger brakes
. revised clutch
. suspension approx 200mms lower
. various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car
. less sound deadening
. no rear seats
. no sunroof

etc etc...


etc etc

[DanH]

PaulRothwell said:

Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are:

. adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo
. modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood.
. different engine block from standard turbo
. rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit
. no four wheel drive
. no traction control
. approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo
. bigger brakes
. revised clutch
. suspension approx 200mms lower
. various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car
. less sound deadening
. no rear seats
. no sunroof

etc etc...


etc etc

Most of that stuff is pretty negligible so its a bit sad there aren't more significant differences. They didn't put nearly enough resources into developing the 6GT2, which they have rectified with the superlative 7GT2.

[richardofengland]

If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader.

[996Weissach]

PaulRothwell said:

. different engine block from standard turbo

Everything I've read seems to contradict this. It appears the differences are isolated to extraneous/ancillary components and engine management.

Something I can add is that it has stronger struts that can accommodate a larger 80mm dia wheel bearing. I think uniballs with strengthened turrets also feature. The gearbox is beefier than the standard Turbo's too, and is very similar to that used in the mk2 GT3.

[996Weissach]

richardofengland said:

If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader.

I've always wondered this. Given only 682 examples were built, it's one of the rarest 911's ever, yet at the moment is readily available and with choice. I suspect things will change when the speculators step in.

[PPPPPP]

richardofengland said:

If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader.

Maybe because it is not so user friendly on a daily basis, and that track day enthusiasts have either already got theirs or don't want to spend so much money on a track weapon (plenty of choice available for far less money)

Edited by PPPPPP on Tuesday 5th January 13:13

[fergus]

PaulRothwell said:

....supposed specialists.....

. suspension approx 200mms lower

I hope that's a typo, or do you have a grp C GT2?

[AL001]

In the UK at least, the 996RS isn't that rare compared to other 996 GT3 versions, which perhaps explains ready availability.

996 Mk1 = 103
996RS = 117
996 Mk2 = 221


The RS would be my pick though for weekend/2nd car, though all versions are superb and Mk2 is best value (imo). Talking about their "investment" potential is deeply tedious though.



P.S. Utter cobblers about a 996 GT2 weighing 250kgs less than a 996 Turbo.

[Slippydiff]

PaulRothwell said:

Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are:

PaulRothwell said:

. adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo

I'm unaware of any difference in wheelbase, Would you care to elaborate ?

PaulRothwell said:

. modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood

I'd say that comes under the heading of mildly modified.

PaulRothwell said:

. different engine block from standard turbo

I'm unaware of any difference in the block specifcations over the standard X50 or indeed the "basic" 996 Turbo engine. Would you care to elaborate ?

PaulRothwell said:

. rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit

The rear wheelarches were rolled. I'd say that comes under the heading of mildly modified.

PaulRothwell said:

. no four wheel drive

An upgraded GT3 type transmission based on the X50 'box as I understand it. Hardly a major upgrade requiring massive re-tooling or investment.

PaulRothwell said:

. no traction control

See above.

PaulRothwell said:

. approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo

The majority of which will have been as a result of the deletion of the above mentioned four wheel drive, lack of sunroof and rear seats.

PaulRothwell said:

. bigger brakes

Identical to the (standard fit) Turbo S items.

PaulRothwell said:

. revised clutch

X50 item.

PaulRothwell said:

. suspension approx 200mms lower

Now you're just being silly . . .

PaulRothwell said:

. various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car

The different rear spoiler and front bumper ? As previously suggested. Mildly modified.

PaulRothwell said:

. less sound deadening

Hardly a major modification.

PaulRothwell said:

. no rear seats

Hardly a major modification.

PaulRothwell said:

. no sunroof

Hardly a major modification.

Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 5th January 13:26

[DanH]

richardofengland said:

If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader.

I don't think the recession and cost of trackdays is helping much.

[TGJR]

DanH said:

richardofengland said:

If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader.

I don't think the recession and cost of trackdays is helping much.

Or the fact that this type of car is often bought by posers who like the image but soon realise that its not for them once all their mates have seen it.

[Steve Rance]

Or they have stuck it in a wall. A large number of 996 RS's have been stuck in the armco or the scenery. Not the most forgiving of cars. Catrs with a good provenance will be very hard to find in a few years

[PPPPPP]

Steve Rance said:

Or they have stuck it in a wall. A large number of 996 RS's have been stuck in the armco or the scenery. Not the most forgiving of cars. Catrs with a good provenance will be very hard to find in a few years

I have considered the 996RS, many times , and concluded it was too extreme for my needs. If I had the luxury of a 10 car garage, I would buy one for sure.

What intrigues me is that so many true Porsche experts & die hard aficianados keep talking about the increasing worth of these cars in the near term, and yet no-one has "hoovered" up all these good provenance cars. Surely the expected capital appreciation taking into account the small number of cars built, many stuck in the armco etc, will be better than the ridiculous interest rates being earnt on deposit accounts for the huge number of wealthy Porsche fans.

And does the average 996RS have more owners than the average 996/997 GT3? Just as the M3 CSL has more owners than the standard M3?

Edited by PPPPPP on Tuesday 5th January 15:43