19th rs track day oulton park 8th march

[Yellow491]

Digga said:

hanks.

Looking at other driver's in car videos and also knowing how my car was turning in, that line makes sense. Of all the corners, it felt like that was the one I left the most on the table, Will wait for a dry track I think!

Thats a good idea digga,get a dry session,that corner can be very rewarding to get right,get its respect and then start exploring when wet.
Some of the vids on line are great to show you around etc,but some lines are different if its a single seater line that you try and follow with generaly your less grip road car etc.The video you put up is great and gives some good understanding of varying lines etc
My car on the day ,it was important to get the car balanced as much as possible when i turn in wet,all my braking done as straight as i can before i turn into the corner and only ever touch the throttle to balance the car into and through the corner which obviuosly differs from others.
In the dry i can get away with a lot more in the old girl,in one of the more modern cars i can brake into apex’s wet or dry which helps keep good grip on the front tyres.

Edited by Yellow491 on Tuesday 12th March 22:26

[Yellow491]

Steve Rance said:

Ha ha!! No Yellow, that one is totally down to me Mate. 100% driver error!

When are you all out next?

As a get together i think it will be one of rsr days either silverstone or dony,looking more likely donington.

[ChrisW.]

TDT said:

boxsey said:

BrotherMouzone said:

As mentioned some super quick pace but also courteous drivers.

Here’s from a novice (to the car and the circuit) POV:

One lap in my second session (first in the dry)
https://youtu.be/c53mp1GXAvI

Three laps in my third session
https://youtu.be/ig29vjPqHVc

LaSource passed me at 0:57, then red GT4 at 1:16 and yellow GT4 at 5:34 (anyone here?)

The yellow GT4 is ChrisW (differentiated on the day from my yellow one by him having a rear towing eye fitted ). Taffy66 makes a guest appearance in his yellow 991 GT3 at the start of your single lap video.

I would have been in the passenger with ChrisW during that stint then... getting more and more ill by the moment!! - ... lol - that guy can pedal.

I was waiting for you to suggest a cooling down lap ?

You can also tell my GT4 by the blue GB sticker on the bumper ...

To be fair, I have raced and I do like Oulton Park .... and you are a good passenger !

[BertBert]

ginettajoe said:

As in all corners, the secret is to turn in early, but very slowly initially, so you are transferring weight gently to the "outside" wheel, combining that with coming off the brakes as you turn!! Turning in late, and more aggressively means you are using more steering input, the combination of which, helps to generate understeer, which in any car, will snap into oversteer once the outside front wheel finds grip, and in any rear engined car, it is like a pendulum!!
I was looking after a chap, Julian, in a black 993RS and another chap, Alan, in a white 994, on the day, and unfortunately the way the track was coned, encouraged some dubious driving!!

So, what are you saying? That is complete rubbish. The secret of all corners is not to turn in early. I could make a living out of being a race coach saying turn in later. I totally accept the two phase turn in. A little then a lot. But that does not equate to turn in early.

And as for the wet. That goes out the window. Going round the outside (buffalo girls) is the norm. It equates to finding bits of the track with less rubber. Those bits not normally used.

There was loads of grip on the outside of druids on Friday. I wasn't running data logging to tell, but my experience tells me that the outside line had lots of pace in it.

Bert

[boxsey]

Digga said:

Looking at other driver's in car videos and also knowing how my car was turning in, that line makes sense. Of all the corners, it felt like that was the one I left the most on the table, Will wait for a dry track I think!

Digga, as one enthusiastic track day driver rather than a gifted racer to another, I would rate Druid's as a confidence corner. To build confidence in it, may I offer a tip given to me by an oldtimer : rather than shift down to third in the braking zone, try staying in fourth. The lower revs through the corner mean that throttle inputs are less dramatic and therefore there is less chance of the car getting out of shape. It all becomes a lot calmer. As you get used to it you'll realise you don't need to brake as much on the entry, you'll carry more speed through it and be faster on the exit.

[ginettajoe]

BertBert said:

ginettajoe said:

As in all corners, the secret is to turn in early, but very slowly initially, so you are transferring weight gently to the "outside" wheel, combining that with coming off the brakes as you turn!! Turning in late, and more aggressively means you are using more steering input, the combination of which, helps to generate understeer, which in any car, will snap into oversteer once the outside front wheel finds grip, and in any rear engined car, it is like a pendulum!!
I was looking after a chap, Julian, in a black 993RS and another chap, Alan, in a white 994, on the day, and unfortunately the way the track was coned, encouraged some dubious driving!!

So, what are you saying? That is complete rubbish. The secret of all corners is not to turn in early. I could make a living out of being a race coach saying turn in later. I totally accept the two phase turn in. A little then a lot. But that does not equate to turn in early.

And as for the wet. That goes out the window. Going round the outside (buffalo girls) is the norm. It equates to finding bits of the track with less rubber. Those bits not normally used.

There was loads of grip on the outside of druids on Friday. I wasn't running data logging to tell, but my experience tells me that the outside line had lots of pace in it.

Bert

I didn't say a two phase turn in, I said turn in slowly initially, but gather the momentum of steering input to bring the car to the apex, so in my book, that is turning in early! With regard to a wet line, yes if there is little grip on the conventional line, look for a line where there is grip!! Druids was resurfaced fairly recently, and as such doesn't have the polished and rubber/oil infused surface that some may have, and as such, turning in later (more steering input) takes you on a longer distance through the corner, with more chance of understeer, and later on the power!!
Ask ChrisW if I find him considerable time at different circuits, simply by what I have just explained!!

[ginettajoe]

Taffy66 said:

ginettajoe said:

As in all corners, the secret is to turn in early, but very slowly initially, so you are transferring weight gently to the "outside" wheel, combining that with coming off the brakes as you turn!! Turning in late, and more aggressively means you are using more steering input, the combination of which, helps to generate understeer, which in any car, will snap into oversteer once the outside front wheel finds grip, and in any rear engined car, it is like a pendulum!!
I was looking after a chap, Julian, in a black 993RS and another chap, Alan, in a white 994, on the day, and unfortunately the way the track was coned, encouraged some dubious driving!!

I was staying in the same hotel as Jules and Alan the night before and we enjoyed a few beers and a lovely meal together along with Boxsey,TDT.Farouk and others. As i'm a total novice and first time in my GT3 at Oulton to say i was lost is an understatement.
I expressed these sentiments to Jules at lunchtime to which he said that he had to leave early for London and as he had paid for an instructor for a full day i could use him for the afternoon..I now wish i'd accepted his kind offer and i understand you were his instructor..

Had I known, I would quite happily have helped you, especially as Oulton is the most technical of circuits, both in the dry, and more importantly in the wet!! Let me know if you have a similar offer in future, and I will gladly make myself available.
Driving around a circuit is a science, it is the physics of moving a mass of metal around a piece of tarmac, and it is very easy to make a slow lap feel fast, but far more difficult to make a fast lap feel slow!

[Digga]

ginettajoe said:

I was looking after a chap, Julian, in a black 993RS

I definitely noticed that car (had no number plates on, right?) - was being driven well and moving along nicely.

Yellow491 said:

Steve Rance said:

Ha ha!! No Yellow, that one is totally down to me Mate. 100% driver error!

When are you all out next?

As a get together i think it will be one of rsr days either silverstone or dony,looking more likely donington.

Other dates being discussed here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Jevvy]

Not many people posting wet lap vids - yu big bunch of jessies!

My Mrs put you all to shame!

[Yellow491]

BertBert said:

So, what are you saying? That is complete rubbish. The secret of all corners is not to turn in early. I could make a living out of being a race coach saying turn in later. I totally accept the two phase turn in. A little then a lot. But that does not equate to turn in early.

And as for the wet. That goes out the window. Going round the outside (buffalo girls) is the norm. It equates to finding bits of the track with less rubber. Those bits not normally used.

There was loads of grip on the outside of druids on Friday. I wasn't running data logging to tell, but my experience tells me that the outside line had lots of pace in it.

Bert

Bert its horses for courses as you know,with my historic racer with the tall side tyres i preload the tyres for turn in,in the dry,as you say in the wet no matter,taught that by a top coach years ago,generally the fastest line in the wet is the line with the most grip,but not always as it can be car/tyre dependant.
a well set up 911 has amazeing grip out of the corner in the wet with correct tyres on for the conditions with out worrying about the pendulum effect which can used to great advantage.

I remember years ago poor oh colin McRae was out pre race practiceing,it was wet,colin went by me up clay hill with a extra 100bhp in the wet,i was struggling trying to find grip with 500bhp, both of us in 993gt2.We both went deep down the left,my line missed the bigger bump on exit left then,sadly colin hit another car and stacked in the barrier on the right,the exit bump was a bh with big bhp and wet,especially when your gear change was around this point!

[Yellow491]

Jevvy said:

Not many people posting wet lap vids - yu big bunch of jessies!

My Mrs put you all to shame!

She probably drives smoother than you in the wet;)
The track was empty in the afternoon wet,which was good fun,but understandable with some of the cars there and a tricky track in places.

[ChrisW.]

ginettajoe said:

I didn't say a two phase turn in, I said turn in slowly initially, but gather the momentum of steering input to bring the car to the apex, so in my book, that is turning in early! With regard to a wet line, yes if there is little grip on the conventional line, look for a line where there is grip!! Druids was resurfaced fairly recently, and as such doesn't have the polished and rubber/oil infused surface that some may have, and as such, turning in later (more steering input) takes you on a longer distance through the corner, with more chance of understeer, and later on the power!!
Ask ChrisW if I find him considerable time at different circuits, simply by what I have just explained!!

All true ... for me. Donnington was probably the most interesting ... Pete Morris and I were playing in the morning and the mobile app confirmed that we were getting down to around 1.22 on the shorter circuit.

Having got my eye in, in the afternoon I took some tuition (always good to let somebody iron out the bad habits and slight overdriving that can so easily become dialled in) ... and we ended up at 1.19.6 which didn't feel to be the limit !

The way I would explain it is this ... when the speed really increases each corner in-fact contains an element of drift. By turning in early and gently (going in too fast and trail braking to speed and feel), the car settles without bounce over the front and rear outside wheels and drifts very slightly onto the apex at which point the turning is done and the power can be brought back to play ...

I've always had my best laps at Spa using this technique ... and failed miserably when I have "forgotten" it ! At Spa I reckon it's worth 5 seconds ...

It costs so little to give this a try ... this style really suits me ... and it feels safe (and confident). What's the cost of a session ? £20 ?

[BertBert]

ginettajoe said:

I didn't say a two phase turn in, I said turn in slowly initially, but gather the momentum of steering input to bring the car to the apex, so in my book, that is turning in early! With regard to a wet line, yes if there is little grip on the conventional line, look for a line where there is grip!! Druids was resurfaced fairly recently, and as such doesn't have the polished and rubber/oil infused surface that some may have, and as such, turning in later (more steering input) takes you on a longer distance through the corner, with more chance of understeer, and later on the power!!
Ask ChrisW if I find him considerable time at different circuits, simply by what I have just explained!!

All I can day is that you have a completely different book to me! The absolute complete novice challenge is the early turn in. So I don't think you are really saying turn in early. You are describing a steering technique. We all know that than actual early turn in results in running out of track on the exit. So if what you are saying doesn't result in that, then by definition it's not an early turn in.

And to druids, yes I agree the dry line had a surprising amount of grip as did the outside line. And if I was going for the fastest lap, the dry line may have unusually won the day. But I was pootling round in my new to me commuting car and had no data available to check out the times anyway.
Bert

[Cunno]

BertBert said:

All I can day is that you have a completely different book to me! The absolute complete novice challenge is the early turn in. So I don't think you are really saying turn in early. You are describing a steering technique. We all know that than actual early turn in results in running out of track on the exit. So if what you are saying doesn't result in that, then by definition it's not an early turn in.

And to druids, yes I agree the dry line had a surprising amount of grip as did the outside line. And if I was going for the fastest lap, the dry line may have unusually won the day. But I was pootling round in my new to me commuting car and had no data available to check out the times anyway.
Bert

Isn’t that the point of what he is teaching, late turn in is what you get taught as a novice as it safe and prevents you from running out of room on the exist.

This technique of earlier turn in while on the brakes getting the car to rotate slightly through the corner to the apex allows for less steering angle and hence more speed and because the car is pivoting your exit angle is improved so you don’t room out of room?

Isn’t this all part of the trail braking technique to get the best out of a rear weight bias car?

[ginettajoe]

BertBert said:

ginettajoe said:

I didn't say a two phase turn in, I said turn in slowly initially, but gather the momentum of steering input to bring the car to the apex, so in my book, that is turning in early! With regard to a wet line, yes if there is little grip on the conventional line, look for a line where there is grip!! Druids was resurfaced fairly recently, and as such doesn't have the polished and rubber/oil infused surface that some may have, and as such, turning in later (more steering input) takes you on a longer distance through the corner, with more chance of understeer, and later on the power!!
Ask ChrisW if I find him considerable time at different circuits, simply by what I have just explained!!

All I can day is that you have a completely different book to me! The absolute complete novice challenge is the early turn in. So I don't think you are really saying turn in early. You are describing a steering technique. We all know that than actual early turn in results in running out of track on the exit. So if what you are saying doesn't result in that, then by definition it's not an early turn in.

And to druids, yes I agree the dry line had a surprising amount of grip as did the outside line. And if I was going for the fastest lap, the dry line may have unusually won the day. But I was pootling round in my new to me commuting car and had no data available to check out the times anyway.
Bert

Of course I am talking about turning in early, what do you think I am saying?? Read ChrisW's post above, and note the tuition was from myself!! Forget the 1970's style of driving, chassis, tyres, brakes, suspension have all moved on, and so has driving "technology"!! Of course, many race drivers are stuck in a time warp, in a similar way the police can't get out of the push pull steering technique!!

[ginettajoe]

Cunno said:

BertBert said:

All I can day is that you have a completely different book to me! The absolute complete novice challenge is the early turn in. So I don't think you are really saying turn in early. You are describing a steering technique. We all know that than actual early turn in results in running out of track on the exit. So if what you are saying doesn't result in that, then by definition it's not an early turn in.

And to druids, yes I agree the dry line had a surprising amount of grip as did the outside line. And if I was going for the fastest lap, the dry line may have unusually won the day. But I was pootling round in my new to me commuting car and had no data available to check out the times anyway.
Bert

Isn’t that the point of what he is teaching, late turn in is what you get taught as a novice as it safe and prevents you from running out of room on the exist.

This technique of earlier turn in while on the brakes getting the car to rotate slightly through the corner to the apex allows for less steering angle and hence more speed and because the car is pivoting your exit angle is improved so you don’t room out of room?

Isn’t this all part of the trail braking technique to get the best out of a rear weight bias car?

Your initial comment is exactly right, late turn in is theoretically safer at the exit, but realistically,it isn't because very often a late turn in, coming off the brakes before turning, results in understeer which either ends up as a spin, or running wide! The whole concept is maintaining as much stability in the car on corner entry, and being able to reduce the steering input whilst feeding power in very early, exiting the corner, which at the same time eliminates understeer!! Leaping off the brakes prior to turn in is the worst technique to unsettle any car, no matter what the configuration is, whether FWD, RWD, 4WD, mid engine, rear engine or front engine!! Every car has a spring at each corner, and weight transfer is the enemy of getting a car through a corner quickly, safely, and flatly, so whatever technique can be applied to minimise weight transfer is the secret!

[Steve Rance]

On the contrary, when driving a 911 weight transfer is your best friend

[Digga]

Jevvy said:

Not many people posting wet lap vids - yu big bunch of jessies!

My Mrs put you all to shame!

Well I did, anyway. Mostly, it was good fun too, even on Cup 2's, and there was almost no traffic - bonus!

[Yellow491]

Steve Rance said:

On the contrary, when driving a 911 weight transfer is your best friend

Its far to simplistic to generalise all cars , tyres have moved on,some have not.
Weight transfer of a early 911 is vital,track,rally or hillclimb,a mid 90,s 911 not so much and a different technique is required to get the best out of it,the later rsr with aero,big tyres loads of grip is different again as it will run fairly flat through the corners with out much understeer depending when you accelerate,but this is not down to just driving tech,dampers and springs have changed massively,areo understanding even for porsche,tyres not so much but important.
The front of a 911 has always been the pain,not the rear in raceing terms when you get to know them.

[MF-Racing]

I had a great day in my 991.2 GTS C4. Fist time round Oulton, few questions...

Why did i keep getting off throttle turn in oversteer? Especially going into Hislops chicane? Too late braking, too much trail braking?

In the dry is Clay Hill flat? I kept lifting slightly like a wuss, and was thinking it was prob more unstable to do that as it was sending weight forward?

Water Tower (just before Druids) I take it that's flat as well? Again i was lifting or even braking through it to get speed down for Druids?

Best lap in dry was 2.01.24 using the Track Precision App. Any good or totally crap?

Got a trackway booked there next week as well

Cheers

Edited by MF-Racing on Thursday 14th March 12:57