Prospective 981 GT4 Owners Discussion Forum.

[AdamV12V]

whoami said:

Thanks.

Were you thinking of this as a replacement for, or an addition to, the V12V?

A replacement, well the GT4 was to be a replacement anyway, so I guess the GTS is a possible replacement to the replacement... The V12V is truely epic, but I've had one for 4yrs now and, well I'm just twitching for something new... That said if it aint better then I'm happy to keep the V12V too as I dont want to regret a change - done that before!!!

Neither of the 991's today were better than the V12V, but maybe a GTS in the spec as above could be? Still somewhat deflated about the GT4 to be honest, hence Im sleeping on it...

[pete a]

AdamV12V said:

A replacement, well the GT4 was to be a replacement anyway, so I guess the GTS is a possible replacement to the replacement... The V12V is truely epic, but I've had one for 4yrs now and, well I'm just twitching for something new... That said if it aint better then I'm happy to keep the V12V too as I dont want to regret a change - done that before!!!

Neither of the 991's today were better than the V12V, but maybe a GTS in the spec as above could be? Still somewhat deflated about the GT4 to be honest, hence Im sleeping on it...

Go and drive a 997 GT3

[AdamV12V]

pete a said:

Go and drive a 997 GT3

I've driven a 997.1 GT3, and cancelled my order of a 997.2 GT3 due to my dealer royally p***sing me about 5yrs ago. I walked out to Aston and havn't looked back... until now!

Great cars 997 GT3's but I havn't bought a used car in over 20yrs, so its not really on my shortlist I'm afraid.

[keep it lit]

AdamV12V said:

pete a said:

Go and drive a 997 GT3

I've driven a 997.1 GT3, and cancelled my order of a 997.2 GT3 due to my dealer royally p***sing me about 5yrs ago. I walked out to Aston and havn't looked back... until now!

Great cars 997 GT3's but I havn't bought a used car in over 20yrs, so its not really on my shortlist I'm afraid.

[franki68]

AdamV12V said:

I've driven a 997.1 GT3, and cancelled my order of a 997.2 GT3 due to my dealer royally p***sing me about 5yrs ago. I walked out to Aston and havn't looked back... until now!

Great cars 997 GT3's but I havn't bought a used car in over 20yrs, so its not really on my shortlist I'm afraid.

Im replacing the Dbs with the gt4,massive change ( 3 years + ownership ,a record for me ) ,and as much as I am looking forward to the gt4,I am going to miss the Dbs enormously,more so I think than any other car I've owned.

[Gandahar]

Must be salesmen at other brands who read this and go "grrrr" "sob sob"

The Porsche pre launch threads are epic, from the soap that was the 991 GT3 launch to this one now. Always amazing the ups and downs.

Good luck to you all who still do not know.

[swimd]

Lots of details available in the form of slides at

http://www.pff.de/porsche/board104-porsche-modelle...

some things I found interesting:

100% same transmission gearing, PTV and mechanical diff as the GTS
same 240mm clutch
-1° 30' camber front and rear
slightly more direct steering ratio
smaller starter motor (weight)
smaller battery (weight)
EU6 standard

acky said:

"the difference in spring rate from the X73 to the GT4 is almost three times bigger than the difference from the base Cayman to the X73"
"Porsche themselves positions the GT4 as less day-to-day usable than the GT3"

I hope the suspension won't ruin the car for me...

[franki68]

swimd said:

I hope the suspension won't ruin the car for me...

That would be my only concern,but reading how the chaps from porsche are talking about the car .it is intended to be a fun car on the road that can be tracked ,makes me think it should be ok.
The gt3 doesnt ride too badly from what I gather ,so if they can manage that ,I'm sure they can mange to make a mid engined car ride acceptably .

[Mermaid]

franki68 said:

swimd said:

I hope the suspension won't ruin the car for me...

That would be my only concern,but reading how the chaps from porsche are talking about the car .it is intended to be a fun car on the road that can be tracked ,makes me think it should be ok.
The gt3 doesnt ride too badly from what I gather ,so if they can manage that ,I'm sure they can mange to make a mid engined car ride acceptably .

The new 996RS kind of,...

[Mario149]

sidicks said:

stuff

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Just to wade in here (against my better judgment), I now "swing both ways" gearbox-wise. Traditionally I have always been a manual man (oo-er) and hated F1/PDK etc. Had a Maser 4200 CC, didn't like the shift on that. Drove a PDK Boxster with buttons back in 2010 or so, didn't like that. Drove a 599, shift was okay, but nothing special for me. Didn't bother driving a 355 F1 as it would have been even worse than the 4200 shift etc etc.

PDK with rocker buttons is pants as it is un-intuitive when everyone else in the market had given us paddles. Single clutch gearboxes are by and large also pants for road driving. Having to finesse a change because the tech doesn't work properly is pants, and doesn't make the gearchange more involving unless it's just to highlight that it is pants - if you want to do more get a manual 'box.

However my BGTS will be PDK despite the fact that the manual 'box is a beautiful thing to use in the 981. Why? I've said it before and I'll say it again: the gearing is too ridiculously long. It could be the best gearbox ever that felates me to completion then fetches me a glass of single malt every time I change up at redline, but if I can't use the first 2 gears fully without being 25% over the NSL on a B-road, or the first 3 without being well into licence losing territory on the motorway, it's pants. I'll take a less involving PDK that I get to use a bit more, is a bit more practical for the 98% of time we're not hooning and that lets me concentrate more on enjoying the other parts of spirited driving, than a gearbox that constantly reminds of how badly matched it is to a road car who's engine loves revs.

I get that manual boxes are more involving, challenging at satisfying to use correctly than a PDK in many circumstances. However, it sometimes rings rather hollow and self righteous when we bang on about it as it's all relative - synchromesh anyone? Better start lobbying Porsche to let them know that all these newfangled manual 'boxes that don't require double clutching are spoiling the enjoyment of real drivers and enthusiasts. Oh and power steering, definitely bin that. It's a sportscar, it doesn't need to be easy to drive at low speed etc etc etc

[PorscheGT4]

PDK is still 74mph in 2nd gear though ! and 3rd still takes you over a ton so you will still get banned ;-)

Edited by PorscheGT4 on Monday 16th February 12:38

[Mario149]

PorscheGT4 said:

PDK is still 74mph in 2nd gear though !

Yes, but not ~85mph for the manual, which is knocking on being 15% longer. PDK isn't perfect either for gearing, but it's substantially better. On the PEC circuit at silverstone which mimics a B-road, I got to use 3rd in the manual box for only ~3s per lap if that. And that's using the whole road which you couldn't do in real life

ETA: for the GT4 I'm not as fussed, likewise for the 997 GT3s, as they're track-biased cars and I can get the compromise

Edited by Mario149 on Monday 16th February 12:42

[sidsideways]

I'm with Sidicks in that I like manual and PDK-S! I can heel and toe and match revs well in a Caterham on track which gives me great pleasure but most other cars have me foxed because of pedal position which I have to re engineer but my serious question here is for the diehards who swear they use H&T all the time on the road. How do you do it well when different corners and roundabouts[not to mention traffic interference requiring pressure modulation] require different braking pressures which means the brake pedal is depressed different amounts and the relative position of the accelerator is always variable? Maybe I do not practice for long enough as practice makes perfect. Also may I make the point that you are only playing at it anyway since the WHOLE point of H&T is to brake consistently hard for longer which is not necessary or even possible except on traffic free roads. As I said I do enjoy it on the track but suspect road practitioners are only tootling about most of the time so are doing it to absolutely no purpose which for me takes the pleasure away and probably explains why I do not practice enough.
The difference in brake depression between track and road is so great I cannot get my feet to adapt to both without modification of the pedals. Granted my feet are old and arthritic compared to some but I have found new different thrills and skills with the PDK-S. Faster all the way round a corner because I am left foot braking with zero lag on the throttle and should there be an emergency or change of situation zero lag on the brake backed up by the correct gear microseconds away to accommodate a sudden change of speed which a manual could not match.
All I am saying is that with PDK-S I am just as busy driving but with different controls still requiring co-ordination and at a higher speed with more control and the higher speed requires more steering skill.
Do you now believe it is possible to enjoy both?

[dvshannow]

had anyone heard more from their dealer after paying the 5k? right now i am waiting for my dealer to hear allocations before they can progress to the next stage

[PorscheGT4]

sidsideways said:

I'm with Sidicks in that I like manual and PDK-S! I can heel and toe and match revs well in a Caterham on track which gives me great pleasure but most other cars have me foxed because of pedal position which I have to re engineer but my serious question here is for the diehards who swear they use H&T all the time on the road. How do you do it well when different corners and roundabouts[not to mention traffic interference requiring pressure modulation] require different braking pressures which means the brake pedal is depressed different amounts and the relative position of the accelerator is always variable? Maybe I do not practice for long enough as practice makes perfect. Also may I make the point that you are only playing at it anyway since the WHOLE point of H&T is to brake consistently hard for longer which is not necessary or even possible except on traffic free roads. As I said I do enjoy it on the track but suspect road practitioners are only tootling about most of the time so are doing it to absolutely no purpose which for me takes the pleasure away and probably explains why I do not practice enough.
The difference in brake depression between track and road is so great I cannot get my feet to adapt to both without modification of the pedals. Granted my feet are old and arthritic compared to some but I have found new different thrills and skills with the PDK-S. Faster all the way round a corner because I am left foot braking with zero lag on the throttle and should there be an emergency or change of situation zero lag on the brake backed up by the correct gear microseconds away to accommodate a sudden change of speed which a manual could not match.
All I am saying is that with PDK-S I am just as busy driving but with different controls still requiring co-ordination and at a higher speed with more control and the higher speed requires more steering skill.
Do you now believe it is possible to enjoy both?

why do you quote PDK-s and not just say Automatic lol , as the GT4 is only 10 seconds off the GT3 after circa 12 miles at the ring, that means more skill to get that time from a GT4, I thought that was what people wanted more driver input ! apex speed will also be greater In the GT4 so will require thinking and even greater steering skill. (as you put it)

If the GT4 had PDK and manual option and they put me on the ring I would be >20 seconds slower in the manual car, not because of the shift speed, it's because the greater skill set needed to get the same lap time in a manual is much higher.

If I wanted fast lap times I would be in a automatic, be left foot braking more and just taking the piss changing gear mid corner , or much deeper into the corner.
it really is a piece of piss driving a automatic fast vs driving a manual fast.

I have driven GTS cars back to back at Silverstone and R8's on the full circuit and piloting a Automatic just seems cheating and easy.

If it gives said owner that great feeling then that's great, but to me I think it's too easy and requires less skill, even to a point I get out the Automatic not sweating and get out the manual sweating !!

Edited by PorscheGT4 on Monday 16th February 13:52

[PorscheGT4]

dvshannow said:

had anyone heard more from their dealer after paying the 5k? right now i am waiting for my dealer to hear allocations before they can progress to the next stage

they had the allocations last week Tues 10th !

[isaldiri]

PorscheGT4 said:

why do you quote PDK-s and not just say Automatic lol , as the GT4 is only 10 seconds off the GT3 after 24 miles at the ring, that means more skill to get that time from a GT4, I thought that was what people wanted more driver input ! apex speed will also be greater In the GT4 so will require thinking and even greater steering skill. (as you put it)

When did the ring become 24 miles....?

As far as auto (pdk or pdk-s or otherwise) vs manual, I agree with sidsideways it's possible for someone to enjoy both. However there is a constant claim that there is something extra special about the pdk-s box that is more 'involving' than another dual clutch box. That I completely fail to get. It might shift faster and better than another and the software setup might be able to ensure that you're always in the correct gear better than in another car but ultimately you still either allow the computer to take over the gearbox operation completely or you just pull a paddle and it clicks to the next gear. Ultimately if you don't like pulling paddles vs using a manual that'll never change no matter how much faster/better pdk-s does it.

[hondansx]

Such a load of balls, IMO.

I totally understand that a gear change can be 'satisfying'. It is however not exciting. You sweat when driving due to concentration but, most importantly, sphincter movement overload from being on the edge.

Some of you guys sound like the typical folk who are all chat about 'purity' and 'connectivity' but either never go on track or are a mobile chicane when on it. They also never experience oversteer, but will still happily rant on about modern traction and stability systems.

Hate to tar people with the same brush, but it is really irritating watching people bang on about their opinion like it's the gospel. I would LOVE to see some footage of you guys driving to go towards justifying your holier than thou opinions.

[Mario149]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It's not moot just because they both go over a ton in 3rd. While I've acknowledged that PDK gearing is not perfect either, the simple fact is with PDK you get to enjoy more of the engine's rev range over more gears more of the time with a lower risk of losing your licence. And it *is* pretty comprehensive if you set yourself a reasonably sensible limit, like most of us do, of how far over NSL on a B-road you'll comfortably go to not risk massive police attention and it limits you to using only one gear (2nd). If you have no qualms about getting stopped by the cops, the long gearing makes little or no difference, but if you're vaguely sensible and try and keep to say 80 - 85 you'll never get out of 2nd. Madness. I'll take PDK where I can at least pull a paddle occasionally. And when you're not on it and just pottering around it doesn't matter - manual/PDK makes no odds, you're not going to relish each individual manual gear change as you're pulling into Tescos or going up the motorway. If you want a good, and more importantly satisfying, manual experience on the road, I'd suggest that you're at least one generation too late if you search for it in the 981 which is criminal of Porsche IMO

PDK isn't always quicker round a track in auto if you're an average driver - Sport plus in the wet for me on Fri at PEC for a period of time when it was very wet held second when under auto control but in reality 3rd was needed as a) you couldn't use full power anyway, and b) 3rd allowed you to be smoother feeding in the power on corner exit allowing you to get it on sooner without upsetting the balance on exit. Yes at some points you might as well stick a PDK in auto, but at least it's "genuine" in that it's part of it's USP. Long gearing is not part of the manual's USP, in fact quite the opposite.

Synchro/PDK? Come on. They both remove driver involvement. Both help you change gear faster and more easily than you would be able to otherwise. Both require you to use less skill. Both make you faster down the road. Both are less satisfying than doing without if you are able. The only thing that separates them is 50 years of tech, not their result.

Yup, it is all about where you draw the line. I love the feel of the manual and I'm all for them when they can be used reasonably properly. But what I won't accept is one so compromised for its primary use. Somehow I think that in the 981 (maybe it happened before, but I don't have experience of manual 997s or 987s) we're on the tipping point. I suspect Porsche are doing it deliberately.....slowly making the manual less and less attractive so that in a couple of gens they can bin it - which would be a crying shame.

Edited by Mario149 on Monday 16th February 14:19

[PorscheGT4]

hondansx said:

Some of you guys sound like the typical folk who are all chat about 'purity' and 'connectivity' but either never go on track or are a mobile chicane when on it. They also never experience oversteer, but will still happily rant on about modern traction and stability systems.

I would LOVE to see some footage of you guys driving to go towards justifying your holier than thou opinions.

I have a you tube channel, knock your self out. exige 195BHp NA model.

http://youtu.be/IH5OacjJT50

even a bit of op lock in there at 2.30 and we over took about 10 mobile chicanes :-)

or the 1st track day out in the car !
http://youtu.be/gTpa8K7-Jc0

you have to remember we are not race drivers, or get paid to go fast in other people cars, and do 3 or 4track days a year that's all, but I like to be involved and not pilot an automatic even though I could knock off 5 seconds lap in one. I also want to be able to drive back home in it as I don't trailer my cars about !

And Rob if you are ever about on track and want to see the Gt4, pop on by and help me out on track I never turn away some skilled advice.

Edited by PorscheGT4 on Monday 16th February 14:35