Another OPC question - prices....
Discussion
When I first heard about the Porsche Saloon I had visions of them buying up all the bug eyed Ford Scorpios (the saloon ones with the Cayanne headlights and 993 style rear lights). They could then put in a 4.5 v8 and rebadge it as a Porsche....et viola the new 4 door Porsche...Probably about the same effort they had to make when they "developed" the Cayanne..
paracetamol said:
roll on richmond parking tax....congestion charges and road user charges and watch the sales of Cayannes tumble...
Blimey, are you now relying on this as your arguement against the Cayenne??
Hilarious. A couple of hundred quid in annual parking charges isn't going to deter many buyers of cars that mainly cost over £40k new. The parking levy targets all high emissions cars and every Porsche on sale falls into that trap. And just in case you weren't aware there is a whole world outside of Richmond, no honestly... there is. Really good entertainment though 
[quote=isuk]Residuals on the floor? Really... how interesting. What evidence is that based upon? Look at the % of retained value against original price for a Cayenne then look at the competition and tell me that the Porsche is the worst??
May be not, but it is a consideration. My Cayenne S lost 50% of it's value in 33 months. I am told the car is now worth approx £22k trade which means it has retained 40% of it's value at 3.5 years old! This was a well spec'ed car in Black, Sat/Nav, 19" wheels etc etc. Mileage wise it had covered 27K at 33 moths old.
May be not, but it is a consideration. My Cayenne S lost 50% of it's value in 33 months. I am told the car is now worth approx £22k trade which means it has retained 40% of it's value at 3.5 years old! This was a well spec'ed car in Black, Sat/Nav, 19" wheels etc etc. Mileage wise it had covered 27K at 33 moths old.
David,
The V8 is perceived by Joe Public as being a thirsty beast so takes a bigger beating than the V6 I have. My 2 year old, 21k mile car cost £46k new and I know a couple of people who'd take it off my hands tomorrow for £31k if I was selling it due to condition and spec. That's nearly 66% of it's original value which isn't bad at all in my book considering you can kiss goodbye to the value of most of the options you "need" for resale the minute you drive any car away from a dealer and also the 17.5% VAT. Any luxury car takes a beating on residuals but my point was that the Cayenne does not suffer disproportionately more in % depreciation terms than any other luxury petrol engined SAV such as the Range Rover, Touareg, XC90 or X5. If you want severe depreciation I consider the £11k hit I took on a 997 C2 in 9 months to be far worse than my Cayenne.
The V8 is perceived by Joe Public as being a thirsty beast so takes a bigger beating than the V6 I have. My 2 year old, 21k mile car cost £46k new and I know a couple of people who'd take it off my hands tomorrow for £31k if I was selling it due to condition and spec. That's nearly 66% of it's original value which isn't bad at all in my book considering you can kiss goodbye to the value of most of the options you "need" for resale the minute you drive any car away from a dealer and also the 17.5% VAT. Any luxury car takes a beating on residuals but my point was that the Cayenne does not suffer disproportionately more in % depreciation terms than any other luxury petrol engined SAV such as the Range Rover, Touareg, XC90 or X5. If you want severe depreciation I consider the £11k hit I took on a 997 C2 in 9 months to be far worse than my Cayenne.
isuk said:
David,
The V8 is perceived by Joe Public as being a thirsty beast so takes a bigger beating than the V6 I have. My 2 year old, 21k mile car cost £46k new and I know a couple of people who'd take it off my hands tomorrow for £31k if I was selling it due to condition and spec. That's nearly 66% of it's original value which isn't bad at all in my book considering you can kiss goodbye to the value of most of the options you "need" for resale the minute you drive any car away from a dealer and also the 17.5% VAT. Any luxury car takes a beating on residuals but my point was that the Cayenne does not suffer disproportionately more in % depreciation terms than any other luxury petrol engined SAV such as the Range Rover, Touareg, XC90 or X5. If you want severe depreciation I consider the £11k hit I took on a 997 C2 in 9 months to be far worse than my Cayenne.
The V8 is perceived by Joe Public as being a thirsty beast so takes a bigger beating than the V6 I have. My 2 year old, 21k mile car cost £46k new and I know a couple of people who'd take it off my hands tomorrow for £31k if I was selling it due to condition and spec. That's nearly 66% of it's original value which isn't bad at all in my book considering you can kiss goodbye to the value of most of the options you "need" for resale the minute you drive any car away from a dealer and also the 17.5% VAT. Any luxury car takes a beating on residuals but my point was that the Cayenne does not suffer disproportionately more in % depreciation terms than any other luxury petrol engined SAV such as the Range Rover, Touareg, XC90 or X5. If you want severe depreciation I consider the £11k hit I took on a 997 C2 in 9 months to be far worse than my Cayenne.
isuk, From what I have heard via other owners, and trade contacts you are in the minority. An indie I know has a 3 month old V6 Cayenne for sale, very good spec and colour. It took him 6 months to sell it at £8k below list price.
isuk said:
paracetamol said:
roll on richmond parking tax....congestion charges and road user charges and watch the sales of Cayannes tumble...
Blimey, are you now relying on this as your arguement against the Cayenne??
Hilarious. A couple of hundred quid in annual parking charges isn't going to deter many buyers of cars that mainly cost over £40k new. The parking levy targets all high emissions cars and every Porsche on sale falls into that trap. And just in case you weren't aware there is a whole world outside of Richmond, no honestly... there is. Really good entertainment though agreed the Richmond thing is not material - what will be (in London at least, home of many a Cayenne) is the exclusion from the 90% resident discount of anuone living in Ken;s congestion charge zone with a big 4x4. If i interpret that corretly you will get charged £8 if you drive a mile down the road to drop of Tarquin to the local grammar and cross a camera, even if you live with the zone.
Why does the new car VAT have anything to do with depreciation? Seems to eb a common misconception - cars do nto depreciate by the VAT amount just because it is paid on new cars but not defined as such in a second hand purchase.
david911RSR more or less said:
in reply to what isuk had said:
David,
The V8 is perceived by Joe Public as being a thirsty beast & so the V6 3.2 is the one they all want
The V8 is perceived by Joe Public as being a thirsty beast & so the V6 3.2 is the one they all want
isuk, From what I have heard via other owners, and trade contacts you are wrong.
The 3.2 really is vastly under powered and to be honest I`m not sure if it`s a great deal more economic than a 4.5 V8 which has a very rounded feel to the drive & you never feel as if it`s wanting for some extra beans. This is especially so if you are wringing the 3.2 to death in an attempt to keep up with the flow of traffic. The Turbo, if driven hard, will drink fuel but in return it realy is an amazing machine. Driven sensibly (but who does?) it`s livable with. To prove a point I`ve averaged 20mph in a turbo over a drive.
I think people buying 3.2 Cayennes are missing the point of what the Cayenne is all about. It was designed as a performance vehicle with excellent handling and a car for all purposes but the lack of power in a 3.2 prevents it from achieving that goal.
Henry
911virgin.com - Porsches bought & sold
Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 1st February 19:08
Henry-F said:
david911RSR more or less said:
in reply to what isuk had said:
David,
The V8 is perceived by Joe Public as being a thirsty beast & so the V6 3.2 is the one they all want
The V8 is perceived by Joe Public as being a thirsty beast & so the V6 3.2 is the one they all want
isuk, From what I have heard via other owners, and trade contacts you are wrong.
The 3.2 really is vastly under powered and to be honest I`m not sure if it`s a great deal more economic than a 4.5 V8 which has a very rounded feel to the drive & you never feel as if it`s wanting for some extra beans. This is especially so if you are wringing the 3.2 to death in an attempt to keep up with the flow of traffic. The Turbo, if driven hard, will drink fuel but in return it realy is an amazing machine. Driven sensibly (but who does?) it`s livable with. To prove a point I`ve averaged 20mph in a turbo over a drive.
I think people buying 3.2 Cayennes are missing the point of what the Cayenne is all about. It was designed as a performance vehicle with excellent handling and a car for all purposes but the lack of power in a 3.2 prevents it from achieving that goal.
Henry
911virgin.com - Porsches bought & sold
Edited by Henry-F on Thursday 1st February 19:08
Good point.
Henry,
I take your point but with all due respect I have no issue with making my wheezy little V6 bowl along at a respectable rate and it can take off pretty smart from a standing start as well. I have no trouble keeping up with a colleague who drives a Q7 3.0 Tdi and likes to travel swiflty shall we say (he races in the 997 Cup series so is a pretty commited driver). The V6 easily also has the measure of the 3.0 petrol X5 I used to own. I chose the V6 in the Cayenne when I bought it as I put it through my business as my company car and was not prepared to shell out the not inconsiderable tax penalty for the extra ponies under the bonnet of the S. As most of my driving is done alone, the V6 isn't strained by carrying additional passengers so it never feels lacklustre. I don't use it for towing either. A little tip I found out before running the car in from a guy on another forum is to carry out the whole first 1000 miles with PSM switched off. This lets the software in the gearbox recognise your driving style much better and I have to say it's worked. My car easily feels subjectively quicker than any V6 loan car I've borrowed which have not been run in properly through having multiple drivers use them from day one. In most of those cars the gearbox tends to change up far too rapidly and misses the torque band in the process. Even swapping cogs using tiptronic doesn't completely solve this either as the software gets confused. Another thing that definately helps improve the overall handling is the rear wheel spacers which improve the cars stance during fast cornering by widening the track. I can certainly take corners faster in my car on 20" wheels with rear spacers than the loan car on standard track with 19" wheels which tend to roll far earlier. I'm not saying the V6 is greased lightning, far from it in fact, but I get a bit fed up of hearing it's judged to be slow by drivers who don't know how to get the best out of it. And for a point of reference I have a 997 C2S and a Gallardo in the garage so it's not as though I'm not aware of what really fast feels like
I take your point but with all due respect I have no issue with making my wheezy little V6 bowl along at a respectable rate and it can take off pretty smart from a standing start as well. I have no trouble keeping up with a colleague who drives a Q7 3.0 Tdi and likes to travel swiflty shall we say (he races in the 997 Cup series so is a pretty commited driver). The V6 easily also has the measure of the 3.0 petrol X5 I used to own. I chose the V6 in the Cayenne when I bought it as I put it through my business as my company car and was not prepared to shell out the not inconsiderable tax penalty for the extra ponies under the bonnet of the S. As most of my driving is done alone, the V6 isn't strained by carrying additional passengers so it never feels lacklustre. I don't use it for towing either. A little tip I found out before running the car in from a guy on another forum is to carry out the whole first 1000 miles with PSM switched off. This lets the software in the gearbox recognise your driving style much better and I have to say it's worked. My car easily feels subjectively quicker than any V6 loan car I've borrowed which have not been run in properly through having multiple drivers use them from day one. In most of those cars the gearbox tends to change up far too rapidly and misses the torque band in the process. Even swapping cogs using tiptronic doesn't completely solve this either as the software gets confused. Another thing that definately helps improve the overall handling is the rear wheel spacers which improve the cars stance during fast cornering by widening the track. I can certainly take corners faster in my car on 20" wheels with rear spacers than the loan car on standard track with 19" wheels which tend to roll far earlier. I'm not saying the V6 is greased lightning, far from it in fact, but I get a bit fed up of hearing it's judged to be slow by drivers who don't know how to get the best out of it. And for a point of reference I have a 997 C2S and a Gallardo in the garage so it's not as though I'm not aware of what really fast feels like
There is a very very big difference between driving a 3.2 V6 & a 4.5 V8 relative to the fairly small difference in ownership costs. I was shocked the first time I drove a V6. With the 4.5 V8 you don`t need any special technique you just get in & drive. I`m also a massive fan of the air suspension re: handling.
The Turbo is in a different league but in fairness not everyone will want or need it`s luxurious power delivery (although you do get a good bunch of toys for free within the turbo package).
Not meant as a dig in any way but certainly I don`t think many people would choose the V6 over the V8 all things being equal.
Henry
The Turbo is in a different league but in fairness not everyone will want or need it`s luxurious power delivery (although you do get a good bunch of toys for free within the turbo package).
Not meant as a dig in any way but certainly I don`t think many people would choose the V6 over the V8 all things being equal.
Henry
968csreading said:
Is one of the cars from Northway, they have a nice one at the moment and OPC Reading is only up the road.
www.northwayporsche.co.uk/car_sales/car.asp?ModelName=968+/+928+/+944+and+Cayenne
www.northwayporsche.co.uk/car_sales/car.asp?ModelName=968+/+928+/+944+and+Cayenne
The mark up at this Independant is c15% including the VAT, both those Cayenne's came from "Reading" so £4k mark up at this ?Independant and £10k at the OPC does that help.
PS they have so many Cayennes coming back of Finance as the final payments are more than the current residuals!
isuk said:
A little tip I found out before running the car in from a guy on another forum is to carry out the whole first 1000 miles with PSM switched off. This lets the software in the gearbox recognise your driving style much better and I have to say it's worked.
first time I've heard this - is it really true?
Worked for me. If you switch the PSM off it lets the car start in first gear and allows it to hold onto the revs before changing up. PSM is programmed to start in 2nd gear to reduce the possibility of wheelspin and also to upshift as quickly as possible for the same reason. Anyone with a V6 should give it a go.
isuk said:
I chose the V6 in the Cayenne when I bought it as I put it through my business as my company car and was not prepared to shell out the not inconsiderable tax penalty for the extra ponies under the bonnet of the S.
So what you are saying is that the impact of a tax based on the emissions of your vehicle forced you to take a lesser powered and therefore more economical car...QED my friend...now if you really do have a 997 and gallarado in the garage I am not too sure why you would be really bothered..
I travelled around Switzerland in a Porsche Cayenne Turbo last week-end and whilst nothing can be said about the great dynamics of that huge car I must say that is there were a couple of things that disturbed me: The comfort and space on the rear seats was poor. The seats are too hard and there is too little legroom. The aircon to the rear did not manage to keep the rear windows mist free. When you are driving you cannot see the map on the navigation screen in the middle console and the roof rails (even without skis) make a lot of windnoise). The boot is too small and barely takes 4 persons luggage.
If you need the space and would like to travel in comfort then I would always buy a Range Rover. If you need a sporty 4x4 mainly driving alone or with your spouse by a 997 4 S.
If you need the space and would like to travel in comfort then I would always buy a Range Rover. If you need a sporty 4x4 mainly driving alone or with your spouse by a 997 4 S.
POORCARDEALER said:
Cayennes will come into there own soon as they will be sub £20K for early ones, that opens up an all new market.
Disagree-who buys a sub £20k used car that can afford 10-15mpg, massive service charges and who knows they will get priced off the road in another 3 years..They will fall into the same abyss as 7 series BMWs (as will all 4x4s). My own view is that 4x4 providers either need to adapt their products (ie much lighter etc) or move massively upmarket to say £100k+ where these things just dont matter.
Land Rover with the RRS wasted a real opportunity (as did Porsche) to have developed something that was lighter and therefore more sporty rather than to strap on a huge v8 engine to make a heavy thing go fast and lots of electronics to keep it upright.
paracetamol said:
[quote=isuk]So what you are saying is that the impact of a tax based on the emissions of your vehicle forced you to take a lesser powered and therefore more economical car...QED my friend...now if you really do have a 997 and gallarado in the garage I am not too sure why you would be really bothered..
Have you ever heard the phrase "a change of cicumstances"?? If you want to see my Gallardo go over to the Ferrari and Lambo section and you'll find a pic. And by the way you seem to be ill informed on tax emissions bands. The V6 and V8 are both taxed at the same emission band level. The tax killer is the somewhat not inconsiderable list price jump of the V8 which adds nearly 30% to the Benefit in Kind tax which is an extra £3k per annum. I've not yet met a person who enjoys paying income tax that is avoidable. Nice try at a comeback though
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