GT3 vs CSL - few questions
Discussion
Burzel - 110% commitment I believe
Phatgixer -
There are drivers of wildly differing abilities on track days, just because you have 'beaten' many GT3 rs's does'nt mean your M3 CSL is potentially faster, just that not all the drivers are as focused and competent as you are.
The only accurate measure, is to have a profesional driver provide accurate comparisons on the same track, the same day, in the cars in question. I wager you would be surprised at the outcome!
Phatgixer -
There are drivers of wildly differing abilities on track days, just because you have 'beaten' many GT3 rs's does'nt mean your M3 CSL is potentially faster, just that not all the drivers are as focused and competent as you are.
The only accurate measure, is to have a profesional driver provide accurate comparisons on the same track, the same day, in the cars in question. I wager you would be surprised at the outcome!
When my CSL was a road car, on Pilots, only mods were APs and supersprint exhaust. Against a 996 GT3-RS with JRZ suspension, driven by a proper driver, there was very little in it. Looking at the data loggers on both cars, there was about 3 seconds a lap in it. This was only my second time at SPA. With the mods that Phatgixxer has now, it would have matched or beaten that GT3-RS. Note that the car was doing demos of how good the JRZ suspension was so was being driven properly.
Surely trackdays are more about you, your car and having fun, your not racing, so the car you do it in is up to you as to what you can afford and what gives you the most fun.
Personally I see buying a trackday car as buying with the heart a bit more than the clinical suggestions mentioned in earlier replies.
Different strokes for different folks and all that, at the end of the day both cars are extremely capable and are not exactly going to dissapoint, with the CSL being a little more practical for non trackday stuff.
Drive both, and buy the one you like the most.
Personally I see buying a trackday car as buying with the heart a bit more than the clinical suggestions mentioned in earlier replies.
Different strokes for different folks and all that, at the end of the day both cars are extremely capable and are not exactly going to dissapoint, with the CSL being a little more practical for non trackday stuff.
Drive both, and buy the one you like the most.
Just thought I would add, I was at the E30 21st Anniversary trackday at Rockingham last year, whilst I bimbled about in my 325 at the time, there was an old guy with a CSL who was flying round, inside outside made no odds, he overtook everything.
They do sound awesome at full chat too
(I would still have the Porsche though)
They do sound awesome at full chat too
(I would still have the Porsche though)
The JRZ GT3RS was been driven by Mr Rance who is a very good driver. This was his first visit to Spa and by the end of the second day he was doing some snunning lap times. He is going back in May so hopefully those times will improve.
What effect on times does the new entry to the bus stop have???
What effect on times does the new entry to the bus stop have???
There are about 25-30 Mark 1,Mark2 and RSs
going to Bedford on the 25th it is being
organised by www.fastrakdays.com
It would be great to see a few CSLs on the
track
tim
going to Bedford on the 25th it is being
organised by www.fastrakdays.com
It would be great to see a few CSLs on the
track
tim
timmo said:
There are about 25-30 Mark 1,Mark2 and RSs
going to Bedford on the 25th it is being
organised by <a href="http://www.fastrakdays.com"><a href="http://www.fastrakdays.com"><a href="http://www.fastrakdays.com">www.fastrakdays.com</a></a></a>
It would be great to see a few CSLs on the
track
tim
Allright Tim, the odds might be stacked against me but bring it on..
Any other CSLers going to join me?
p.s. you're not going to play an unfair advantage and run on slicks again are you?
Steve
>> Edited by DoctorD on Friday 4th March 19:00
If you realy want to prove a point how good a CSL is or a GT3 spend shed loads on brakes, set up, fit brand new semi slick tyres, chip it to give 40bhp over standard & don't take a passenger out. Add loads of seat time then go past a standard car and prove nothing other than you have a big ego.
Blo--dy h-ll sounds like me.
Z
Blo--dy h-ll sounds like me.
Z
zanzibar said:
If you realy want to prove a point how good a CSL is or a GT3 spend shed loads on brakes, set up, fit brand new semi slick tyres, chip it to give 40bhp over standard & don't take a passenger out. Add loads of seat time then go past a standard car and prove nothing other than you have a big ego.
Blo--dy h-ll sounds like me.
Z
I'm sure a Manthey K400 upgrade deserves to be referred to as a bit more than just a 'chip' tune..
p.s. evoblade has his CSL engine removed and put on a dynamometer the other day with the cats removed and a straight pipe exhaust it produced 379 bhp and 280 lb/ft torque. Not bad for a 3.2 litre engine. The torque curve was really flat as well. Problem is the CSLs engine is about as tuned as possible without losing driveability so the CSL is never going to be as quick in a straight line as a tuned GT3. Will be fun trying though..
>> Edited by DoctorD on Friday 4th March 22:43
Doctor D.
Peak torque was at 4900rpm and peak power at 7200rpm. PTG's engines are running 300lb/ft at 6000rpm and 420bhp at 8200rpm, basically via more aggressive cams. I will try this later, and expect to get around 400bhp at 7800rpm and 290lb/ft at 5500rpm.
All of these figures on super unleaded fuel
Peak torque was at 4900rpm and peak power at 7200rpm. PTG's engines are running 300lb/ft at 6000rpm and 420bhp at 8200rpm, basically via more aggressive cams. I will try this later, and expect to get around 400bhp at 7800rpm and 290lb/ft at 5500rpm.
All of these figures on super unleaded fuel
evoblade said:
When my CSL was a road car, on Pilots, only mods were APs and supersprint exhaust. Against a 996 GT3-RS with JRZ suspension, driven by a proper driver, there was very little in it. Looking at the data loggers on both cars, there was about 3 seconds a lap in it. This was only my second time at SPA. With the mods that Phatgixxer has now, it would have matched or beaten that GT3-RS. Note that the car was doing demos of how good the JRZ suspension was so was being driven properly.
I have read this thread with interest. I am the driver of the Parr Motorsport GT3RS refered to in the above mail. Unfortunately, the data comparisons between the two cars is inaccurate as the trace that Evoblade has is 2.5 seconds slower that the fastest lap recorded. This gives a margin of over 5.5 seconds on a lap of Spa which at 150 mph is a long way. On saying that, the time posted by the CSL was very quick compared to everything else out there and the driver was clearly competant. The RS that I was driving was completely standard except for the springs and shock absorbers.
The difference between the two cars is fundamentally about their relative weight distributions. An average driver will find it easier to drive a CSL quickly as it will be much less sensitive to changes in weight distribution on entry and turn in than the 911 would. A good race driver will be able to carry much more speed into a corner with the 911 than the CSL but the technique that he employs will require high levels of car control. I feel that your competance levels should play a large part in your decision.
I am very impressed with the CSL. I would have no hesitation in reccomending one to the novice or intermediate driver. He will almost certainly be quicker in the CSL than he would be in a GT3. If the driver is experienced and is able to exploit the weight distribution of the 911, he will be quicker in the GT3 by some margin.
Finally, the GT3 and especially the RS is essentially a racing car dummed down for the road. As such the true potential of the lap speed of the car can be unlocked by a simple set up change. There is no need for upgrades to the drive train or braking system. So for as little as 400 quid, a set of cups and a passenger harness, you are ready to go.
I hope that this helps to answer your question. Actually it is a win win situation. Whatever car you choose, you will not be dissapointed.
Steve Rance
Hi Steve
Could you elaborate as to why a 911's weight distribution allows more speed to be carried into a corner? As someone more familiar with front engined cars, I always thought the main benefit of a rear engine was the extra traction on corner exit, but at the expense of less front end bite.
thx
Paul
Could you elaborate as to why a 911's weight distribution allows more speed to be carried into a corner? As someone more familiar with front engined cars, I always thought the main benefit of a rear engine was the extra traction on corner exit, but at the expense of less front end bite.
thx
Paul
[quote=Paul968]Hi Steve
Could you elaborate as to why a 911's weight distribution allows more speed to be carried into a corner? As someone more familiar with front engined cars, I always thought the main benefit of a rear engine was the extra traction on corner exit, but at the expense of less front end bite.
thx
Hello Paul
Ok I won't write a book here. As you approch the braking zone in a 911 you lightly press the brake pedal for probably 2/10s of a second to transfer the weight to the front of the car and load up the front wheels. Once loaded you brake harder and progressively keeping the weight over the front wheels - There is also something that you need to do with heal and toe but like I said I won't write a book - So just before turn in we have weight transfer smoothly from the rear to the front so we have lots of front end grip. This needs to be done smoothly or the front springs will 'bounce' the weight back to the rear and you are off big time. Now smoothly turn in and for a fraction on a second keep the brakes on to maximise weight transfer and therefore front end grip. We now have a high speed turn in, the front wheels have done thier job so we come off of the brakes quickly and at the same time start applying power. This transfers the weight to the rear of the car where we now need it. Feed the power gently through the apex and then harder so that you are flat near the exit and hey presto you've just had it all ways, a fast turn in, apex and exit....
Good drivers have been doing this for years in 911's. If you can fire the car into corners like this again and again, you win races. That is why the 911 in all of it's guises is one of the most prolific race winners of all time. It is also why more have also been stuffed into the armco or hedges than most other car.
In the hands of a good driver the 911 is an incredible driving tool. Unfortunately it can also be a lethal weapon in the wrong hands.
I hope that this makes some sense to you.
Steve
Could you elaborate as to why a 911's weight distribution allows more speed to be carried into a corner? As someone more familiar with front engined cars, I always thought the main benefit of a rear engine was the extra traction on corner exit, but at the expense of less front end bite.
thx
Hello Paul
Ok I won't write a book here. As you approch the braking zone in a 911 you lightly press the brake pedal for probably 2/10s of a second to transfer the weight to the front of the car and load up the front wheels. Once loaded you brake harder and progressively keeping the weight over the front wheels - There is also something that you need to do with heal and toe but like I said I won't write a book - So just before turn in we have weight transfer smoothly from the rear to the front so we have lots of front end grip. This needs to be done smoothly or the front springs will 'bounce' the weight back to the rear and you are off big time. Now smoothly turn in and for a fraction on a second keep the brakes on to maximise weight transfer and therefore front end grip. We now have a high speed turn in, the front wheels have done thier job so we come off of the brakes quickly and at the same time start applying power. This transfers the weight to the rear of the car where we now need it. Feed the power gently through the apex and then harder so that you are flat near the exit and hey presto you've just had it all ways, a fast turn in, apex and exit....
Good drivers have been doing this for years in 911's. If you can fire the car into corners like this again and again, you win races. That is why the 911 in all of it's guises is one of the most prolific race winners of all time. It is also why more have also been stuffed into the armco or hedges than most other car.
In the hands of a good driver the 911 is an incredible driving tool. Unfortunately it can also be a lethal weapon in the wrong hands.
I hope that this makes some sense to you.
Steve
Paul968 said:
It makes sense Steve, but why is this inherently better than a front engine setup?
Paul, the 911 has a pivot point over the front axle but the weight distribution is biased to the rear axle. This means that the car has inherant strong traction but also that it is very sensitive to weight transfer under braking. The ingredients are there for the best of both worlds if the driver has the skills to use them.
Steve
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