Porsche and Tivs
Discussion
Just thought I would offer my views on TVR's and Porsches born out of personal experience. I bought Tuscan....(New)... February last year, (380BHP and all the extras). Within a couple of weeks, the rear screen squeaked, the roof rattled, the speedo didn't work, the throttle pedal was sticking, there were some minor paint blemishes, and the air con didn't work properly. In the 9 months I owned it, it broke down five times, plus there were a catologue of other problems, (seat trim breaking, doors not closing properly intermitently, brakes seizing, gear lever coming off in my hand etc.......). Yes, the acceleration figures look impressive on paper, but in the real world, unless you are driving on the smoothest, grippiest tarmac, you'll never get more than two thirds of the power down, and once on the move it will tramline so violently if you''re not use to it you'll think you've just had a blow out. In fact over 80mph, you'll need two lanes to keep it on the road, as the steering is so super sensitive to the slightest camber on the road. This sort of driving experience undoubtedly is exciting when a road tester is driving the car for a couple of hours for a magazine but when you have to live with it, you realise quickly that there hasn't been a lot of development time allocated to the car. And as for track days, forget it!! There is very little down force at the rear, so at speed under heavy braking, the tail will go light and start swinging like a pendulum, and as for exiting, the rear will be scambling for grip. A porche 911 on the other hand, (anything from a 964RS to the current 996), runs rings around a Tuscan in terms of outright performance, as well as build quality. In comparison the Porsche just feels like a properly developed car. I have a 996 GT3, which might be 30K more to purchase (from new), but is so tremendously stable in all driving situations that it inspires confidence. With 20BHP less, the Porshce can be driven at least 25% quicker in real life situations, and is far more tactile and refined. Having also owned a 993 carrera 2, I would say that this car also is in real terms a far faster car than a TVR Tuscan. Oh and lets not talk about TVR depreciation which is simply off the scale if like me you were stupid enough to buy one from new. This might sound like sour grapes, but I too wanted to support our British manufacturers. I've owned two Morgans, (a plus 4 amd Plus 8), which I loved. I wish that Peter Wheeler would stop using his customers as guinea pigs for the development of his cars and concentrated on developing them properly. It's a shame, because in so many ways TVR's are fabulous....their looks, sound and uniqueness are second to none. But when you start paying serious money for a car, a manufacturer must start taking his customers seriously too. To summarise, there is no comparison between a TVR and a Porsche
quote:
To summarise, there is no comparison between a TVR and a Porsche
HMMM. Perhaps that explains the sometimes vitriolic responses of TVR lovers - they secretly know it but don't want to admit it.
I find TVRs very very sexy - and Porsches not. But I didn't make my money by frittering it away at every opportunity, and it seems to me that a Porsche is the better and cheaper option. Did anyone read the Autocar test of the 996 Carrera 2 in the late dec. 2001 edition? The tester called it, considering what you get and what you pay, a bargain.
Rgds, WalterU
Edited by WalterU on Sunday 20th January 01:54
Interesting posts, guys. As Nick says, there is no real comparison. I am just surprised how defensive the TVR crew can be, and even Peter Wheeler has been known to deny reliability issues.
I see that re: 'the 996 bargain' Walter refers to, many of the car magazines are now claiming that the new E46 BMW M3 holds the crown.
It's 10k cheaper than the 996, just as quick and well built(?)
I haven't driven the latest versions of the 911 and M3 (only the older versions, but quite a few of them) so could anyone else comment?
Speed - try emailing autofarm for more info re supercharging, they might be able to help.
I see that re: 'the 996 bargain' Walter refers to, many of the car magazines are now claiming that the new E46 BMW M3 holds the crown.
It's 10k cheaper than the 996, just as quick and well built(?)
I haven't driven the latest versions of the 911 and M3 (only the older versions, but quite a few of them) so could anyone else comment?
Speed - try emailing autofarm for more info re supercharging, they might be able to help.
i think it is just EVO that put the M3 as top dog, you should see the write up for the new 996 in Autocar.
i think the general conscencious is that the M3 is almost as quick, almost as good but £17K cheaper = hence top dog.
i wanted the M3 but 2 year wait and rep car looks led me to a second hand 996 (ie saving the 17K) must say it is a blast..
Benno
quote:
I am just surprised how defensive the TVR crew can be, and even Peter Wheeler has been known to deny reliability issues.
Domster,
Most TVR crew (including me) will admit the reliability concerns are true to an extent but get fed up with them getting blown up out of proportion - ie all speed six engines blow up - I like Porsches, good cars and who knows I may get one one day, but the last two fun cars have been TVRs.
Cheers,
JSG.
TVR engines don't have a habit of blowing up. It's actually a fabulous unit. (it does leak oil though) and the electrics are of a very low quality, no doubt Peter Wheeler's way of saving money. There are also tons of badly designed engineering aspects to the car which conspire to stop the it working on a regular basis. Simply unacceptable on a modern car, (especially on a car well over 40K!!). The car cannot be driven on a daily basis.
Perhaps a classic case of "don't believe everything you read"? I've reached the stage of not believing anything I read, at least until I've had the time to think it all out from different angles. A bit slow on the uptake these days!
Autocar are perfectly correct; the 996 is a bargain - for its quality. But to be fair, you have to say that the TVR is a bargain for its performance.
Back to square one!!
Autocar are perfectly correct; the 996 is a bargain - for its quality. But to be fair, you have to say that the TVR is a bargain for its performance.
Back to square one!!
Fair play, JSG.
I'm sure the issues do get blown out of proportion, especially by people who don't know the full facts.
It was only the 'TVR can do no wrong' crew that my comment was aimed at, as their ignorance is almost as bad as the 'TVR can do no good' ensemble.
Here's to truth, fair play and sensible discussion.
What ho, eh Ted?
I'm sure the issues do get blown out of proportion, especially by people who don't know the full facts.
It was only the 'TVR can do no wrong' crew that my comment was aimed at, as their ignorance is almost as bad as the 'TVR can do no good' ensemble.
Here's to truth, fair play and sensible discussion.
What ho, eh Ted?
Dom wrote: Most porkers I see are Boxsters and these aren't really chest wig chariots owned by show-offs - the owners are more likely to be accountants going through a mid life crisis.
An interesting comment sorry it took me a while to get back to that. I should imagine an accountant going through a mid-life crisis would be in a DB7 vantage a Boxster is more of an estate agent's company car.
This months Esquire magazine has an interesting article on Wheeler and TVR. Quite an apt quite from the article is as follows `Unlike previous TVR's the Tuscan S handles like a proper sportscar and the hand-crafted chrome-and-leather interior is simply beautiful; it is a long way from the plastic fantastic offerings of TVR pre-Wheeler and makes a £58,000 Porsche 911 Carrera seem a little staid.'
I would have thought it quite obvious that a Tuscan is not an every day car and give it 2 years and all of the faults will be ironed out much like the modern Chimaeras. The moral of the story is don't buy a new model TVR wait for a few years until they figure everything out, in the meantime settle for a Chimaera500 which will start every day and rip the hell out of most Porsche's.
Edited by mrbigman on Wednesday 23 January 01:30
An interesting comment sorry it took me a while to get back to that. I should imagine an accountant going through a mid-life crisis would be in a DB7 vantage a Boxster is more of an estate agent's company car.
This months Esquire magazine has an interesting article on Wheeler and TVR. Quite an apt quite from the article is as follows `Unlike previous TVR's the Tuscan S handles like a proper sportscar and the hand-crafted chrome-and-leather interior is simply beautiful; it is a long way from the plastic fantastic offerings of TVR pre-Wheeler and makes a £58,000 Porsche 911 Carrera seem a little staid.'
I would have thought it quite obvious that a Tuscan is not an every day car and give it 2 years and all of the faults will be ironed out much like the modern Chimaeras. The moral of the story is don't buy a new model TVR wait for a few years until they figure everything out, in the meantime settle for a Chimaera500 which will start every day and rip the hell out of most Porsche's.
Edited by mrbigman on Wednesday 23 January 01:30
Fair enough BG - dunno why I started calling you that as it should be MrBM, but that has Munich connotations you may not like ;-) - the Boxster is probably closer to the demographic you describe. Interestingly, the 911 crew tends to have a higher proportion of 'enthusiasts'.
I think you are right re waiting a year or two to sort problems, this is exactly what a dealer said to me when the Tuscan came out. However, the quote you refer to re the interior doesn't actually mention build quality - just the styling. I think the porker/tiv debate always rages around the fact that TVRs have more stylish and characterful aspects, but often at the expense of reliability. After all, bland grey plastic is a better workday solution than fanciful bits of MDF clad in lilac leather.
If the Grif 500 was as reliable as it may seem to be, I'd be getting one as my next car, for sure. However, I know of one owner who had serious problems with his 500, and that the engines are the least reliable of the Rover units.
And as McNab points out, 'ripping the hell out of most Porsches' on the road may be true, but isn't the point. A Porsche would 'rip the hell out of most TVRs' in the workshop ;-)
Rgds
Domster
Edited by domster on Wednesday 23 January 10:04
I think you are right re waiting a year or two to sort problems, this is exactly what a dealer said to me when the Tuscan came out. However, the quote you refer to re the interior doesn't actually mention build quality - just the styling. I think the porker/tiv debate always rages around the fact that TVRs have more stylish and characterful aspects, but often at the expense of reliability. After all, bland grey plastic is a better workday solution than fanciful bits of MDF clad in lilac leather.
If the Grif 500 was as reliable as it may seem to be, I'd be getting one as my next car, for sure. However, I know of one owner who had serious problems with his 500, and that the engines are the least reliable of the Rover units.
And as McNab points out, 'ripping the hell out of most Porsches' on the road may be true, but isn't the point. A Porsche would 'rip the hell out of most TVRs' in the workshop ;-)
Rgds
Domster
Edited by domster on Wednesday 23 January 10:04
Another boring Porsche vs. TVR thread.
Look, it's simple:
Porsches are better. There, I've said it. Better built, better (read - more predictable) handling, better reliability (but they do break down too!) and decent performance.
But they're dull as dishwater to a TVR owner/admirer.
We've been down this road a dozen times or more so let's just give it a rest. If you can't make up your mind which car to buy then just drive them all until you find one that floats your boat. There's room on the road for both of us (well, maybe not in the UK at least!
. TVR - Brutal
Porsche - Clinical
Go figure
Porsches are faster than TVR's. They don't jump accross two lanes when they hit a bump. I've lived with both. You'd never be confident enough to drive a TVR more than 7/10ths. You simply can't get all the power down, the rear wheels lose grip, (add a bit of damp and a few bumps and the Porsche would disappear into the distance. It's not all about brute power. In the real world, where non of us are F1 racing drivers, very few people would have enough skill to have the confidence to drive a TVR at 10/10ths. I soon realised my limitations having raced several seasons in Morgans...(recommend the experience to anyone!!) so have had reasonable experience driving cars at their limits.
quote:
Porsches are faster than TVR's.
Really?
quote:
You'd never be confident enough to drive a TVR more than 7/10ths.
Is that a fact?
quote:
You simply can't get all the power down, the rear wheels lose grip
Hadn't really noticed that myself. But thanks for putting me straight. I'll get rid of mine immediately.
Why don't we all leave the mythology to the Greeks?
I'm not going to start resurrecting the tired old insults about Porsches, because:
1) It's not productive
2) I happen to like Porsches
Porsche and TVR are two great manufacturers that make great cars. Most people who can afford one could instead have chosen the other - you have to assume that most people go through some sort of thought process when shelling out a significant amount of hard-earned. Who knows, some clever people may have even taken [draws breath] a test drive.
So maybe we should just respect the fact that people have made an informed decision one way or the other for their own reasons and let it lie.
I'm amazed people aren't bored of this yet.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff