IPDs - do they work on N/A - let's find out
Discussion
Backdraft said:
We have the IPD fitted to our 987-2 Boxter Spyder. As a package with high flow cats, Revo software and BMC filter it is very impressive. I'm really not a fan of dyno comparisons and the 987-2 is particularly difficult to dyno. We use the race track for our development and use our own car to demonstrate the gains. It's really clear stepping from a standard Spyder into our demonstrator. Feel free to arrange a try out...
Will you be adding anymore details and prices to your website at some point?http://www.backdraftmotorsport.com/bdm-boxster-spy...
996ttalot said:
Update.
So we have the plenums now which is the good news. There was a delay because Greg wanted to test the new competition plenum as well, but those are now in mass production and will not be ready in time. I will come on to that point.
After speaking with Greg tonight and been given some data from recent tests by them on customer cars, what is clear from their testing, and therefore should be seen by ours is the following
1) Taking either a 996 or 997 gen 1 car and fitting an IPD (standard size) with no other mods should result in an increase in the power and tq across the whole curve except at the point of shifting to high lift (around 5000-5200 rpm) when power drops normally.
2) Taking either a 996 or 997 gen 1 car and fitting the competition IPD together with 83mm TB (e.g. GT3 TB) will only provide very marginal gains over using the standard size IPD.
That make an interesting point, in that in his opinion, upgrading the TB and the IPD will not give value for money - basically you would be paying for the larger TB for no real gain.
However, doing option 2) in conjunction with other mods e.g. exhaust/headers etc , then in their testing, the larger TB and IPD works better.
Be aware that is their testing and not ours at this stage. Just a communication update. To that end, we will continue with just putting on the standard size IPD to both our 996 c4s and 997.1 c2s. However the 997.1 c2s has indicated that he would like to add other stuff e.g. x51 stuff and so on later, so we will help to test that as well.
At the moment the tests are scheduled w/c 5th March.
We will also be selecting a suitable time interval for the vbox for both cars since we don't want to just rely upon dyno results.
Ken
Sounds good! So we have the plenums now which is the good news. There was a delay because Greg wanted to test the new competition plenum as well, but those are now in mass production and will not be ready in time. I will come on to that point.
After speaking with Greg tonight and been given some data from recent tests by them on customer cars, what is clear from their testing, and therefore should be seen by ours is the following
1) Taking either a 996 or 997 gen 1 car and fitting an IPD (standard size) with no other mods should result in an increase in the power and tq across the whole curve except at the point of shifting to high lift (around 5000-5200 rpm) when power drops normally.
2) Taking either a 996 or 997 gen 1 car and fitting the competition IPD together with 83mm TB (e.g. GT3 TB) will only provide very marginal gains over using the standard size IPD.
That make an interesting point, in that in his opinion, upgrading the TB and the IPD will not give value for money - basically you would be paying for the larger TB for no real gain.
However, doing option 2) in conjunction with other mods e.g. exhaust/headers etc , then in their testing, the larger TB and IPD works better.
Be aware that is their testing and not ours at this stage. Just a communication update. To that end, we will continue with just putting on the standard size IPD to both our 996 c4s and 997.1 c2s. However the 997.1 c2s has indicated that he would like to add other stuff e.g. x51 stuff and so on later, so we will help to test that as well.
At the moment the tests are scheduled w/c 5th March.
We will also be selecting a suitable time interval for the vbox for both cars since we don't want to just rely upon dyno results.
Ken
always odd this tuning lark
because just fitting one good thing does not always give the best results.
even more so regarding getting more air in then having to get more air out.
When I had my Lotus we were the 1st people to tune a S2,
I had 3 things to fit and test, a new flowed head, a exhaust and a intake systems.
this took a few days and a few dyno runs as each part was fitted tested , taken off retested and dyno's.
No sinle part gave good gains, add all 3 we got 30BHp in total.
Same thing with my tuning Cayman issues, 1 thing did not do much, but after a bigger plenum, free flow exhaust and a remap I got 47BHp.
Porshce has 4 big CATS, this imo and testing seems to restrict what ever you do intake wise as you cannot get get the air out fast enough.
taking the rear cats off might give you 10BHp gain, adding a IPD might give you a 5BHp gains, fitting both and testing might give you a 25BHp gain :-)
take two 996 cars with say for no reason 340BHp side by side.
take the cats off both cars now 350BHp side by side
now fit a IPD one might be 350BHp one might be 360BHp.
add in a remap with advanced timing now one with the mods might be 370BHp.
you need to get air in and out the engine if there is a restriction either end, then imo no point tuning.
any way that's my view and limited knoledge on it all.
because just fitting one good thing does not always give the best results.
even more so regarding getting more air in then having to get more air out.
When I had my Lotus we were the 1st people to tune a S2,
I had 3 things to fit and test, a new flowed head, a exhaust and a intake systems.
this took a few days and a few dyno runs as each part was fitted tested , taken off retested and dyno's.
No sinle part gave good gains, add all 3 we got 30BHp in total.
Same thing with my tuning Cayman issues, 1 thing did not do much, but after a bigger plenum, free flow exhaust and a remap I got 47BHp.
Porshce has 4 big CATS, this imo and testing seems to restrict what ever you do intake wise as you cannot get get the air out fast enough.
taking the rear cats off might give you 10BHp gain, adding a IPD might give you a 5BHp gains, fitting both and testing might give you a 25BHp gain :-)
take two 996 cars with say for no reason 340BHp side by side.
take the cats off both cars now 350BHp side by side
now fit a IPD one might be 350BHp one might be 360BHp.
add in a remap with advanced timing now one with the mods might be 370BHp.
you need to get air in and out the engine if there is a restriction either end, then imo no point tuning.
any way that's my view and limited knoledge on it all.
mrdemon said:
always odd this tuning lark
because just fitting one good thing does not always give the best results.
even more so regarding getting more air in then having to get more air out.
When I had my Lotus we were the 1st people to tune a S2,
I had 3 things to fit and test, a new flowed head, a exhaust and a intake systems.
this took a few days and a few dyno runs as each part was fitted tested , taken off retested and dyno's.
No sinle part gave good gains, add all 3 we got 30BHp in total.
Same thing with my tuning Cayman issues, 1 thing did not do much, but after a bigger plenum, free flow exhaust and a remap I got 47BHp.
Porshce has 4 big CATS, this imo and testing seems to restrict what ever you do intake wise as you cannot get get the air out fast enough.
taking the rear cats off might give you 10BHp gain, adding a IPD might give you a 5BHp gains, fitting both and testing might give you a 25BHp gain :-)
take two 996 cars with say for no reason 340BHp side by side.
take the cats off both cars now 350BHp side by side
now fit a IPD one might be 350BHp one might be 360BHp.
add in a remap with advanced timing now one with the mods might be 370BHp.
you need to get air in and out the engine if there is a restriction either end, then imo no point tuning.
any way that's my view and limited knoledge on it all.
Hi mate, sorry to go off topic a little, was it a gen 1 cayman you had played with/remapped? If so who did it for you and what was the cost? 47bhp gain sounds good from what i have been reading.because just fitting one good thing does not always give the best results.
even more so regarding getting more air in then having to get more air out.
When I had my Lotus we were the 1st people to tune a S2,
I had 3 things to fit and test, a new flowed head, a exhaust and a intake systems.
this took a few days and a few dyno runs as each part was fitted tested , taken off retested and dyno's.
No sinle part gave good gains, add all 3 we got 30BHp in total.
Same thing with my tuning Cayman issues, 1 thing did not do much, but after a bigger plenum, free flow exhaust and a remap I got 47BHp.
Porshce has 4 big CATS, this imo and testing seems to restrict what ever you do intake wise as you cannot get get the air out fast enough.
taking the rear cats off might give you 10BHp gain, adding a IPD might give you a 5BHp gains, fitting both and testing might give you a 25BHp gain :-)
take two 996 cars with say for no reason 340BHp side by side.
take the cats off both cars now 350BHp side by side
now fit a IPD one might be 350BHp one might be 360BHp.
add in a remap with advanced timing now one with the mods might be 370BHp.
you need to get air in and out the engine if there is a restriction either end, then imo no point tuning.
any way that's my view and limited knoledge on it all.
I'm not expecting big things from this. Take remaps for an example, everyone raves about them but in total911 they conducted a before/after test on a 996 turbo, yes, the rolling road said x more BHP/torque but in the real world it made no tangible difference. Even more shocking was the fact the best 0-60 time they could get was around 6 seconds, my 3.4 is quicker!
To make any noticable improvements to 911 performance (not what rolling road says but to stop watch times) you'll need to get hardcore and change everything from headers, exhausts, induction, strip out interior, remap, intercoolers, bigger displacement, fuel systems..etc
Save the £££ and spend it on good maintenance/retrofitting stuff
To make any noticable improvements to 911 performance (not what rolling road says but to stop watch times) you'll need to get hardcore and change everything from headers, exhausts, induction, strip out interior, remap, intercoolers, bigger displacement, fuel systems..etc
Save the £££ and spend it on good maintenance/retrofitting stuff
agree with Mr demon on this one. I'm not saying the other bits which in particular 9E are very well versed on make a giant leap in perforrmance, but a decent remap makes a big difference.
The 6 second 0-60 can only be a misprint too, My Cayenne will do it in less than that.
The 6 second 0-60 can only be a misprint too, My Cayenne will do it in less than that.
Edited by CraigVmax on Thursday 1st March 11:42
Edited by CraigVmax on Thursday 1st March 11:42
CraigVmax said:
agree with Mr demon on this one. I'm not saying the other bits which in particular 9E are very well versed on make a giant leap in perforrmance, but a decent remap makes a big difference.
The 6 second 0-60 can only be a misprint too, My Cayenne will do it in less than that.
The popular perception between map/remap on 996T is night and day but the tests on a straight drag proved to be very different indeed, I was shocked in all honesty! Car may 'feel' faster but it was 6'ish -/+ seconds to 60 on all runs, no miss-prints. Car was tiptronic which if anything like a N/A 996 adds a second to the time.The 6 second 0-60 can only be a misprint too, My Cayenne will do it in less than that.
Edited by CraigVmax on Thursday 1st March 11:42
Edited by CraigVmax on Thursday 1st March 11:42
I realise top Gear isn't a real motor show but what about when they wanted to get that people carrier around the track, they did everything to it from brakes, engine, suspension and it didn't do anything. Only thing that did work is working with the aero.
As previously mentioned, if you want your 911 to be massively faster you have to get hardcore on it. They left the factory as fast cars and simple bolt on things like plenums won't do anything.
disco1 said:
CraigVmax said:
agree with Mr demon on this one. I'm not saying the other bits which in particular 9E are very well versed on make a giant leap in perforrmance, but a decent remap makes a big difference.
The 6 second 0-60 can only be a misprint too, My Cayenne will do it in less than that.
The popular perception between map/remap on 996T is night and day but the tests on a straight drag proved to be very different indeed, I was shocked in all honesty! Car may 'feel' faster but it was 6'ish -/+ seconds to 60 on all runs, no miss-prints. Car was tiptronic which if anything like a N/A 996 adds a second to the time.The 6 second 0-60 can only be a misprint too, My Cayenne will do it in less than that.
Edited by CraigVmax on Thursday 1st March 11:42
Edited by CraigVmax on Thursday 1st March 11:42
I realise top Gear isn't a real motor show but what about when they wanted to get that people carrier around the track, they did everything to it from brakes, engine, suspension and it didn't do anything. Only thing that did work is working with the aero.
As previously mentioned, if you want your 911 to be massively faster you have to get hardcore on it. They left the factory as fast cars and simple bolt on things like plenums won't do anything.
I am sure others reputable tuners like Fearnsport achieve good results like ourselves. Here is the proof of ours http://nineexcellence.com/tuning/996turbo/software...
That is just stage 1 and knocks three secounds of the 60-130 time. Properly tested, vboxed and no dispute. We guarantee it and have numerous cars running it.
You pay for what you get. It is that simple. Pay peanuts and you get monkeys.
Coming back on topic, since most know that we don't particular like dynos we have decided to split the IPD install and testing into two parts.
On Monday we will fit just a std IPD to a 996 c4s. It will be dyno'd before and after by Charlie, with adaption in between. We will then publish those results, good or bad.
On Wednesday, we will be fitting a std IPD to a 997 gen 1 C2S. We will vbox before and afterwards and datalog the airflow. Then we will fit X51 manifolds, and re vbox. We will then publish that data, again good or bad. At a subsequent date, we will swop the std IPD with a competition one together with a GT3 Throttle body on the same car, and then re vbox.
Ken
On Monday we will fit just a std IPD to a 996 c4s. It will be dyno'd before and after by Charlie, with adaption in between. We will then publish those results, good or bad.
On Wednesday, we will be fitting a std IPD to a 997 gen 1 C2S. We will vbox before and afterwards and datalog the airflow. Then
we will fit X51 manifolds, and re vbox. We will then publish that data, again good or bad. At a subsequent date, we will swop the std IPD with a competition one together with a GT3 Throttle body on the same car, and then re vbox. Ken
996ttalot said:
Coming back on topic, since most know that we don't particular like dynos we have decided to split the IPD install and testing into two parts.
On Monday we will fit just a std IPD to a 996 c4s. It will be dyno'd before and after by Charlie, with adaption in between. We will then publish those results, good or bad.
On Wednesday, we will be fitting a std IPD to a 997 gen 1 C2S. We will vbox before and afterwards and datalog the airflow. Then we will fit X51 manifolds, and re vbox. We will then publish that data, again good or bad. At a subsequent date, we will swop the std IPD with a competition one together with a GT3 Throttle body on the same car, and then re vbox.
Ken
Hi Ken,On Monday we will fit just a std IPD to a 996 c4s. It will be dyno'd before and after by Charlie, with adaption in between. We will then publish those results, good or bad.
On Wednesday, we will be fitting a std IPD to a 997 gen 1 C2S. We will vbox before and afterwards and datalog the airflow. Then
we will fit X51 manifolds, and re vbox. We will then publish that data, again good or bad. At a subsequent date, we will swop the std IPD with a competition one together with a GT3 Throttle body on the same car, and then re vbox. Ken
I've got a grubby old hat to eat and cash for a plenum if proven wrong
Best of luck on the tests
D1
disco1 said:
996ttalot said:
Coming back on topic, since most know that we don't particular like dynos we have decided to split the IPD install and testing into two parts.
On Monday we will fit just a std IPD to a 996 c4s. It will be dyno'd before and after by Charlie, with adaption in between. We will then publish those results, good or bad.
On Wednesday, we will be fitting a std IPD to a 997 gen 1 C2S. We will vbox before and afterwards and datalog the airflow. Then we will fit X51 manifolds, and re vbox. We will then publish that data, again good or bad. At a subsequent date, we will swop the std IPD with a competition one together with a GT3 Throttle body on the same car, and then re vbox.
Ken
Hi Ken,On Monday we will fit just a std IPD to a 996 c4s. It will be dyno'd before and after by Charlie, with adaption in between. We will then publish those results, good or bad.
On Wednesday, we will be fitting a std IPD to a 997 gen 1 C2S. We will vbox before and afterwards and datalog the airflow. Then
we will fit X51 manifolds, and re vbox. We will then publish that data, again good or bad. At a subsequent date, we will swop the std IPD with a competition one together with a GT3 Throttle body on the same car, and then re vbox. Ken
I've got a grubby old hat to eat and cash for a plenum if proven wrong
Best of luck on the tests
D1
We will see soon enough next week.
Ken
996ttalot said:
I hope they do work and Greg @ IPD is following the thread. Personally I am more interested in the vbox results as I place more weight on them.
We will see soon enough next week.
Ken
Hi KenWe will see soon enough next week.
Ken
If at all possible it would also still be good to see dyno results as well.
On your Vbox test will it just be acceleration through gears or will you do before and after Vbox date of say for instance 60-110mph in 4th.
As sometimes certain mods only improve power at say the upper RPM's but loose you low-down torque. As such it would be good to see some higher gear acceleration test to see how the modification effect around the mid-range power/torque.
Gibbo205 said:
Hi Ken
If at all possible it would also still be good to see dyno results as well.
On your Vbox test will it just be acceleration through gears or will you do before and after Vbox date of say for instance 60-110mph in 4th.
As sometimes certain mods only improve power at say the upper RPM's but loose you low-down torque. As such it would be good to see some higher gear acceleration test to see how the modification effect around the mid-range power/torque.
The vbox will be before and afterwards and will be sufficent to cover the points you madeIf at all possible it would also still be good to see dyno results as well.
On your Vbox test will it just be acceleration through gears or will you do before and after Vbox date of say for instance 60-110mph in 4th.
As sometimes certain mods only improve power at say the upper RPM's but loose you low-down torque. As such it would be good to see some higher gear acceleration test to see how the modification effect around the mid-range power/torque.
Ken
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