Journalist sued after 917 engine explodes
Discussion
freedman said:
stuttgartmetal said:
Now you put it like that, how could i be so obtuse.
I mean, look at what they've done to poor old Sir Jimmy Savile.
So he liked a young un.
That in no way detracts from the fact that he was a dedicated charity fundraiser, who raised millions of pounds for such good causes.
He dedicated his life to the cause.
What he did in his private life was private.
Yep, now I see the similarities, and how to compartmentalise and ignore irrelevancies in a persons character.
Thanks for that
There are no similaritiesI mean, look at what they've done to poor old Sir Jimmy Savile.
So he liked a young un.
That in no way detracts from the fact that he was a dedicated charity fundraiser, who raised millions of pounds for such good causes.
He dedicated his life to the cause.
What he did in his private life was private.
Yep, now I see the similarities, and how to compartmentalise and ignore irrelevancies in a persons character.
Thanks for that
But I imagine you know that and are just posting nonsnse to get a response
No similarities.
None.
Edited by stuttgartmetal on Sunday 20th January 10:18
I have known Mark Hales for nigh on 20 years and we have had some differences of opinion over that time. I do not know David Piper.
The "you bend it you mend it" is the norm in motorsport. Unless you have a contract that states otherwise. The reason I did not race at the Spa Classic was that I could not live with an open ended liability with regard to both mechanicals and bodywork although the package price for doing it was very attractive.
What I find a little hard to swallow and only based upon these facts being true.
You have a chap who is very wealthy in his own right and a chap that makes a living. To bankrupt the chap just making a living over a £40,000 debt for damaging the 917 engine, something that appears to happen with frightening regularity seems a pretty poor show to me.
Just maybe David Piper was just making a point and he will not enforce the bankruptcy. Or Nick Mason will help Mark out. Who knows.
The "you bend it you mend it" is the norm in motorsport. Unless you have a contract that states otherwise. The reason I did not race at the Spa Classic was that I could not live with an open ended liability with regard to both mechanicals and bodywork although the package price for doing it was very attractive.
What I find a little hard to swallow and only based upon these facts being true.
You have a chap who is very wealthy in his own right and a chap that makes a living. To bankrupt the chap just making a living over a £40,000 debt for damaging the 917 engine, something that appears to happen with frightening regularity seems a pretty poor show to me.
Just maybe David Piper was just making a point and he will not enforce the bankruptcy. Or Nick Mason will help Mark out. Who knows.
freedman said:
We have no idea why this ended up in court, but obviously liabilty couldnt be agreed, and Piper believed Hales was at fault
the only version we have is that from Hales which makes it all sound like the car was faulty when he first drove it and Pipers mecahanics couldnt be bothered to fix it. Implausible doesnt come close IMO, and obviously the judge agreed or Hales wouldnt have lost.
Will be interesting to see the judgement and why he found for Piper.
I doubt Pipers thinking was to bankrupt Hales, do you?
And this is a 917 with a value in excess of 1mil, not a 20 year old 911 worth 15k, spending 40k on the engine will have no impact on the cars value whatsoever
Having seen my Father pursue a business debt through the high court in the 90's and the disproportionate nature of the costs involved versus the principal sum in dispute, I am surprised that a £50K dispute was allowed to get this far. The facts of the case hardly looked encouraging for poor Mr Hales. I wonder if there was ever an offer for out of court settlement.the only version we have is that from Hales which makes it all sound like the car was faulty when he first drove it and Pipers mecahanics couldnt be bothered to fix it. Implausible doesnt come close IMO, and obviously the judge agreed or Hales wouldnt have lost.
Will be interesting to see the judgement and why he found for Piper.
I doubt Pipers thinking was to bankrupt Hales, do you?
And this is a 917 with a value in excess of 1mil, not a 20 year old 911 worth 15k, spending 40k on the engine will have no impact on the cars value whatsoever
bergmeister said:
What is as sad, is the way this forum has gone, to make silly childish comments about people on a public car forum.
I think PH has had its day also.
I agree. I know neither gentleman, am unlikely ever to move in their circles, but those that have commented from a position of knowledge have done so positively, whereas those that have been guessing have been the vitriolic.I think PH has had its day also.
There's still a lot of good on PH, I rarely visit the lounge or gg these days, but in most areas common sense rises above the detritus and long may it continue.
DH01 said:
A nice write up albeit a tad dated. Trev450 said:
DH01 said:
A nice write up albeit a tad dated. rubystone said:
Trev450 said:
DH01 said:
A nice write up albeit a tad dated. "If a racing driver is invited to test a car for a team, he will be expected to pay for any costs or repair that arose during the test, ie chasis, engine, transmission. Basically anything that breaks while the driver is in control of the car. This is the general rule of the paddock"
Sorry, utterly disagree.
8300 is nothing to a well prepped 917
Pay for mechanical failure is never a principle of loan for a magazine feature. Or for much classic racing. You are horribly underestimating the professionalism of the man, as I assume you know neither him nor his business. You must think Chris Harris felt that he needed .5 million in the bank to drive the Singer, or the Frankel car he raced at Spa (which broke, like it does every year) was coming out of his pocket?
Have a look at the other thread, it is a bit better off
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
8300 is nothing to a well prepped 917
Pay for mechanical failure is never a principle of loan for a magazine feature. Or for much classic racing. You are horribly underestimating the professionalism of the man, as I assume you know neither him nor his business. You must think Chris Harris felt that he needed .5 million in the bank to drive the Singer, or the Frankel car he raced at Spa (which broke, like it does every year) was coming out of his pocket?
Have a look at the other thread, it is a bit better off
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
freedman said:
Just re read the track test that is at the centre of the case
Quite a lot of comment around the gearbox and its recalicitrance but nothing to suggest there was any actual problem with it or any other aspect of the car
As on the other thread, this proves that Hales didn't break the car. Piper must have broken it at home. Well done.Quite a lot of comment around the gearbox and its recalicitrance but nothing to suggest there was any actual problem with it or any other aspect of the car
freedman said:
Tankslider said:
As on the other thread, this proves that Hales didn't break the car. Piper must have broken it at home. Well done.
It doesnt prove anything at allApart from the fact that Hales didnt include any issues he was apprently having with the gearbox in his article
Hales says he told them of the issue and their implication was tht they weren't going to fix it and he should be careful as a result. He then elected to continue to drive and and that resulted in damage to the engine. Or have I misunderstood Hales' own version of events?
rubystone said:
Hales says he told them of the issue and their implication was tht they weren't going to fix it and he should be careful as a result. He then elected to continue to drive and and that resulted in damage to the engine. Or have I misunderstood Hales' own version of events?
I was addding that the article that resulted after the track test, makes no mention of any mechanical woes with the car. However there is a reasonable amount of space taken up talking about the intricacies of the gearbox itself
Tankslider said:
Sorry, utterly disagree.
8300 is nothing to a well prepped 917
Pay for mechanical failure is never a principle of loan for a magazine feature. Or for much classic racing. You are horribly underestimating the professionalism of the man, as I assume you know neither him nor his business. You must think Chris Harris felt that he needed .5 million in the bank to drive the Singer, or the Frankel car he raced at Spa (which broke, like it does every year) was coming out of his pocket?
Have a look at the other thread, it is a bit better off
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
As I keep saying:8300 is nothing to a well prepped 917
Pay for mechanical failure is never a principle of loan for a magazine feature. Or for much classic racing. You are horribly underestimating the professionalism of the man, as I assume you know neither him nor his business. You must think Chris Harris felt that he needed .5 million in the bank to drive the Singer, or the Frankel car he raced at Spa (which broke, like it does every year) was coming out of his pocket?
Have a look at the other thread, it is a bit better off
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
SS7 said:
"These cars were known to be rev-critical in period. Plenty were blown up in period by the best drivers around at the time. It went - 8400rpm: max power (between 580 and 630bhp), max revs 8700-8,800: 9,200rpm shrapnel.
From John Wyer's book 'The Certain Sound' : "The rev limiters were usually set at this speed (8,800rpm) but were not completely reliable and if the drivers missed a gear [it] did not act quickly enough to prevent damage. The trouble was that at 9,200rpm the valves touched the pistons which almost invariably resulted in a broken camshaft and a blown engine. We lost several engines as a result".
Also "[Hobbs] had the misfortune at Daytona to miss a gear and wreck and engine, a fatally easy thing to do on the 917" and "Being Siffert he had to make a grandstand play and pass them in front of the pits. In doing so he missed a gear and blew the engine".
What is it then? The rev numbers have been misreported or the engine was crook?From John Wyer's book 'The Certain Sound' : "The rev limiters were usually set at this speed (8,800rpm) but were not completely reliable and if the drivers missed a gear [it] did not act quickly enough to prevent damage. The trouble was that at 9,200rpm the valves touched the pistons which almost invariably resulted in a broken camshaft and a blown engine. We lost several engines as a result".
Also "[Hobbs] had the misfortune at Daytona to miss a gear and wreck and engine, a fatally easy thing to do on the 917" and "Being Siffert he had to make a grandstand play and pass them in front of the pits. In doing so he missed a gear and blew the engine".
SS7
Mr Piper makes a very good living out of hiring out his old race cars. He has another 917 and several Ferrari prototypes.
A few years ago a wealthy club racer hired one of his Ferrari prototypes for the Goodwood Revival. All went well so he was 'allowed' to hire the same car for the Le Mans Classic (or Legends, I cant remember). The engine let go in qualifying. Said driver was seriously pissed off that having spent tens of thousands to hire the car, he had no race. After much scurrying around and 'persuasion' of the French officials he was allowed to take the big brother prototype out in the race despite not having done the necessary qualifying laps. The engine in this one then let go too. So much for David Piper's car preparation.
Fortunately for him the driver, unlike Mr Hales, he could afford much better lawyers than Mr Piper and so nothing more came of it.
This is clearly personal as otherwise David Piper would have gone after Mark Hales limited company and not him personally as an individual.
The law and lawyers may have been served but there is clearly no justice here.
A few years ago a wealthy club racer hired one of his Ferrari prototypes for the Goodwood Revival. All went well so he was 'allowed' to hire the same car for the Le Mans Classic (or Legends, I cant remember). The engine let go in qualifying. Said driver was seriously pissed off that having spent tens of thousands to hire the car, he had no race. After much scurrying around and 'persuasion' of the French officials he was allowed to take the big brother prototype out in the race despite not having done the necessary qualifying laps. The engine in this one then let go too. So much for David Piper's car preparation.
Fortunately for him the driver, unlike Mr Hales, he could afford much better lawyers than Mr Piper and so nothing more came of it.
This is clearly personal as otherwise David Piper would have gone after Mark Hales limited company and not him personally as an individual.
The law and lawyers may have been served but there is clearly no justice here.
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