I've tried everything . All fall at the feet of ...

[cbgt3]

[lowndes]

Quite common it seems

[GrahamPM]

My air-cooled summer toy



Has to be a summer toy, as the hood is just a rain cap!


Graham

[fastgerman]

graemel said:

FG. You should have done your homework and bought yourself a decent example of the mark

Edited by graemel on Thursday 8th January 07:41

Who is Mark? ;-)

[Crimp]

It all gets a bit boring this air and water debate.
I love them both.
Had a large collection of both, used to show air-cooled 911's also, so yes good examples of the marque.
I don't think air-cooled cars are better quality quite the contrary actually they appear to be because they are old and have that nuts & bolts feel to them, but they rust like mad, far worse than more modern cars and that's just a fact, they call this progression.
The air-cooled cars are quirky yes but so is a tractor, they have a more raw experience yes, but so does a Ford Anglia over a Ford Focus.
I just don't understand why air-cooled owners have to keep justifying that they are far better than water-cooled cars when quite clearly they are a mile off in nearly every scenario.

To me its whatever floats your boat thus subjective.

[fastgerman]

Crimp said:

It all gets a bit boring this air and water debate.
I love them both.
Had a large collection of both, used to show air-cooled 911's also, so yes good examples of the marque.
I don't think air-cooled cars are better quality quite the contrary actually they appear to be because they are old and have that nuts & bolts feel to them, but they rust like mad, far worse than more modern cars and that's just a fact, they call this progression.
The air-cooled cars are quirky yes but so is a tractor, they have a more raw experience yes, but so does a Ford Anglia over a Ford Focus.
I just don't understand why air-cooled owners have to keep justifying that they are far better than water-cooled cars when quite clearly they are a mile off in nearly every scenario.

To me its whatever floats your boat thus subjective.

Agreed

Even James May says that old cars are rubbish

[Orangecurry]

Progression:

where the development evolution (of a car) means that the driver is less challenged, more protected, more insulated with more interior 'options' with each iteration.

At some point in this 'progression', that particular car loses it's petrolhead appeal.

It seems that for Porsche, this happened to coincide with the change from inefficient 2v per cyl air-cooled engine 'hand-built' money-loser to the mainstream water-cooled production-line money-making version.

[fastgerman]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Differing opinions but somebody can't be wrong on which car is more 'fun' to them.

I drove this - http://fastgerman.com/forum/porsche-911t/



and

http://fastgerman.com/forum/porsche-experience-cen...

2 of these



The 991 was far more fun to me due to:

- it was fast
- sounded immense
- cornering speed was addictive
- steering feel of the 991 C4 without the additional low speed witch craft was very similar to a 997, which is amazing
- interior and exterior are beautiful
- amazing brakes

The 911T was to me:

- like stepping into a museum
- a novelty
- nice that everyone waves and stops to let you out
- the car rolled like an old Mercedes
- not fast by anyones standards, therefore not a sport car to me
- hard work
- horrendous brakes

If I could, I'd have both but the 911T would be my museum piece and to take to car shows. I wouldn't take it out at 6am on a sunny June morning for a hoon

Edited by fastgerman on Thursday 8th January 15:49

Edited by fastgerman on Thursday 8th January 15:51

[braddo]

Orangecurry said:

Progression:

where the development evolution (of a car) means that the driver is less challenged, more protected, more insulated with more interior 'options' with each iteration.

At some point in this 'progression', that particular car loses it's petrolhead appeal.

It seems that for Porsche, this happened to coincide with the change from inefficient 2v per cyl air-cooled engine 'hand-built' money-loser to the mainstream water-cooled production-line money-making version.

I disagree. I would say it is about to happen, though (if not already with the 991 and 981).

[porkyrob]

this is mine, love it to bits. just about to get a tidy up she will happily sit a 90. and driving down narrow b roads you don't need anymore car.

once she's sympathetically restored I will use daily I think

anyway WTdoom, cheers for the info when I was looking to buy

Edited by porkyrob on Thursday 8th January 16:02

[Baz99]

Orangecurry said:

Progression:

where the development evolution (of a car) means that the driver is less challenged, more protected, more insulated with more interior 'options' with each iteration.

At some point in this 'progression', that particular car loses it's petrolhead appeal.

It seems that for Porsche, this happened to coincide with the change from inefficient 2v per cyl air-cooled engine 'hand-built' money-loser to the mainstream water-cooled production-line money-making version.

As I understand it the 911 is subsidised by the Panamera, after all Porsche are now principally 4*4 manufacturers. 'Less challenged' presumably you mean trying to get a gear, 'more protected' can't be a bad thing, after all if things go wrong in the modern cars, you are going a lot faster. 'Interior Options' you mean like a heating and cooling system that works.
I recall being very disappointed at the quality of my 3.2 which was three years old when I swapped an Audi coupe for it. The build was poor compared to the Audi, the heating didn't, it steamed up on motorways, was uncomfortable, had to pause before selecting 2nd, would try to swap ends at random. Great fun of course but seriously deficient vis the modern variants. I enjoy my 997.2 C4S much much more, it's a proper and seriously quick 'super car' not a 'souped up beetle'.

[Orangecurry]

braddo said:

I disagree. I would say it is about to happen, though (if not already with the 991 and 981).

At least you agree it happens. I would imagine that it happens at different points for different people.

But to suggest that cars simply get 'better' is very wrong.

[fastgerman]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yes you did, I'll let you off. Okay, here are some options:

C63 507 or AMG Hammer (1986 saloon) - To me one is sh1$$er and it's the old one
Porsche Cayman 2.7 or 924
Audi R8/RS5 or Audi UR Quattro
Maserati Grand Sport/Grand Coupe or the 1980's Ghibli - The later is a real heap imo
BMW M3 CSL (E46) or M3 E30 - again, no competition to me

Remember that the above is on fun, not values

[Orangecurry]

Baz99 said:

'Less challenged' presumably you mean trying to get a gear, 'more protected' can't be a bad thing, after all if things go wrong in the modern cars, you are going a lot faster. 'Interior Options' you mean like a heating and cooling system that works.

No, I don't mean any of those things. We clearly want very different things from our cars. I like to be physically and mentally challenged.

And a 997 C4S isn't a supercar - sorry.

[Baz99]

Orangecurry said:

No, I don't mean any of those things. We clearly want very different things from our cars. I like to be physically and mentally challenged.

And a 997 C4S isn't a supercar - sorry.

I never found a air cooled Porsche to be physically never mind mentally challenging!! Don't understand. The newer cars are just as challenging in that you can be in serious trouble in them if you don't apply the basic rules. Defining a supercar is of course subjective, but having had four 911's of varying type, I can assure you the C4S gets closest.

[hot66]

fastgerman said:

Differing opinions but somebody can't be wrong on which car is more 'fun' to them.

I drove this - http://fastgerman.com/forum/porsche-911t/



and

http://fastgerman.com/forum/porsche-experience-cen...

2 of these



The 991 was far more fun to me due to:

- it was fast
- sounded immense
- cornering speed was addictive
- steering feel of the 991 C4 without the additional low speed witch craft was very similar to a 997, which is amazing
- interior and exterior are beautiful
- amazing brakes

The 911T was to me:

- like stepping into a museum
- a novelty
- nice that everyone waves and stops to let you out
- the car rolled like an old Mercedes
- not fast by anyones standards, therefore not a sport car to me
- hard work
- horrendous brakes

If I could, I'd have both but the 911T would be my museum piece and to take to car shows. I wouldn't take it out at 6am on a sunny June morning for a hoon

Edited by fastgerman on Thursday 8th January 15:49

Edited by fastgerman on Thursday 8th January 15:51

goes to show how different cars even of the same era are ... a 911T generally has soft suspension, no anti-roll bars, smaller disc brakes , low powered ( 125 bhp us 2.2T ) engine etc ..... never really a 'drivers' car even when new , compared to the S models that corrected all this with stiffer suspension ( still soft compared to modern ) , bigger brakes & way more horse power ( 2.4S 190 bhp )

I love my old cars ( & more modern ones too , have a varied garage ) , but I'll admit I dont' find the old 'T' models exciting to drive . I quite disliked my old 2.0 SWB for example ..... where as my '73 2.4S is a different beast altogther , handles & stops well , power delivery from an S engine always gives a buzz etc, its just an exciting car to drive which is why I still have it, whilst cars like my modded 996 turbo have been & gone.

As an aside, I find my CSL fun, ( although lacking in feel from the steering, it makes up for having more feel from the rear ) and even really enjoy driving my Land Rover series 2A complete with crash box ... over the years I've narrowed down what cars I actually like & enjoy driving / spending time in. I'm sure my perfect garage is very different to other peoples.

[utgjon]

fastgerman said:

Yes you did, I'll let you off. Okay, here are some options:

C63 507 or AMG Hammer (1986 saloon) - To me one is sh1$$er and it's the old one
Porsche Cayman 2.7 or 924
Audi R8/RS5 or Audi UR Quattro
Maserati Grand Sport/Grand Coupe or the 1980's Ghibli - The later is a real heap imo
BMW M3 CSL (E46) or M3 E30 - again, no competition to me

Remember that the above is on fun, not values

On 'fun' and what I think i'd get a thrill out of owning:

- AMG Hammer
- Cayman 2.7
- UR Quattro
- Grand Sport
- E46 CSL

[Crimp]

Orangecurry said:

Progression:

where the development evolution (of a car) means that the driver is less challenged, more protected, more insulated with more interior 'options' with each iteration.

At some point in this 'progression', that particular car loses it's petrolhead appeal.

It seems that for Porsche, this happened to coincide with the change from inefficient 2v per cyl air-cooled engine 'hand-built' money-loser to the mainstream water-cooled production-line money-making version.

Interesting albeit crap.
So a GT2/GT3 and a near 200 mph Turbo are not interesting to a petrol head, get a grip.
I'm sure an old Brown 911T with no brakes appeals more LOL

[Orangecurry]

Crimp said:

Orangecurry said:

Progression:

where the development evolution (of a car) means that the driver is less challenged, more protected, more insulated with more interior 'options' with each iteration.

At some point in this 'progression', that particular car loses it's petrolhead appeal.

It seems that for Porsche, this happened to coincide with the change from inefficient 2v per cyl air-cooled engine 'hand-built' money-loser to the mainstream water-cooled production-line money-making version.

Interesting albeit crap.
So a GT2/GT3 and a near 200 mph Turbo are not interesting to a petrol head, get a grip.
I'm sure an old Brown 911T with no brakes appeals more LOL

Are you a politician? You seem to be adding words - I never said 'interesting'. Sure I would be 'interested' in the on-track abilities of a GT car.

But I don't want one.

Have you read the thread?

Quite a few people on here 'get' that less is more.

[Slippydiff]

Baz99 said:

I never found a air cooled Porsche to be physically never mind mentally challenging!! Don't understand. The newer cars are just as challenging in that you can be in serious trouble in them if you don't apply the basic rules. Defining a supercar is of course subjective, but having had four 911's of varying type, I can assure you the C4S gets closest.

That's probably the best the best indicator of how Porsche's owner demographic has shifted over the past 15-20 years.........

Do tell us, what are the four types of 911 you've owned, other than a 3.2 Carrera (I think generally accepted by most as the worst 911 IB car built) and the supercar that is the 997 C4S ?

But let's get something straight, you really think the 997 C4S is a bona fide supercar ? up there with the likes of a CGT, 918, Pagani Zonda, Lambo Murcielago, Ferrari 430 Scuderia/458 Italia etc etc ? ? ?

In reality the 997 is a watercooled "souped up Beetle" (your choice of words) with an engine renowed for its questionable reliability.

From my perspective the C4 S is proof perfect of what Porsche as a brand has become, along with its fat arse and everything in Porsche's technical armoury added to stop owners with more money than talent getting themselves into trouble.

Don't get me wrong, there are some very good watercooled 911's, (with the added bonus that they display some of the traits of the older aircooled cars : those being tactility, engagement and a visceral side) alas my friend, the 997 C4S isn't one of them.