How threatened is JLR?...sounds worrying
Discussion
The British government deserves nothing apart from blame.
Yes, our manufacturers have made mistakes, but so have the foreign competition. The difference, the very big difference, is access to finance. UK finance (banks, whatever) isn't interested in anything that pays back a few per cent. And if they do provide cash, woe betide the manufacturer if there's a downturn in the economy; the lender will not be sympathetic. In Germany, there's an obligation to support manufacturers. In France, the French government defends its industries; the amount of cash swallowed by Renault was huge. When the French government wants something, it sponsors an R&D project with a French company to develop and produce it. Present day UKGovs look around to see where they can buy off the shelf.
As for 'tax payers' money, well JLR and all their staff and many of their suppliers and places where their staff spend their money are tax payers. UK Gov can afford to pour a lot into UK manufacturing and still be ahead of the game, or it could if it cared.
I've worked with Daimler-Benz and Bosch engineers. They aren't better than ours. The only difference that I perceive is persistence, but persistence requires sympathetic finance, which is where I started.
Yes, our manufacturers have made mistakes, but so have the foreign competition. The difference, the very big difference, is access to finance. UK finance (banks, whatever) isn't interested in anything that pays back a few per cent. And if they do provide cash, woe betide the manufacturer if there's a downturn in the economy; the lender will not be sympathetic. In Germany, there's an obligation to support manufacturers. In France, the French government defends its industries; the amount of cash swallowed by Renault was huge. When the French government wants something, it sponsors an R&D project with a French company to develop and produce it. Present day UKGovs look around to see where they can buy off the shelf.
As for 'tax payers' money, well JLR and all their staff and many of their suppliers and places where their staff spend their money are tax payers. UK Gov can afford to pour a lot into UK manufacturing and still be ahead of the game, or it could if it cared.
I've worked with Daimler-Benz and Bosch engineers. They aren't better than ours. The only difference that I perceive is persistence, but persistence requires sympathetic finance, which is where I started.
Peter3442 said:
The British government deserves nothing apart from blame.
Yes, our manufacturers have made mistakes, but so have the foreign competition. The difference, the very big difference, is access to finance. UK finance (banks, whatever) isn't interested in anything that pays back a few per cent. And if they do provide cash, woe betide the manufacturer if there's a downturn in the economy; the lender will not be sympathetic. In Germany, there's an obligation to support manufacturers. In France, the French government defends its industries; the amount of cash swallowed by Renault was huge. When the French government wants something, it sponsors an R&D project with a French company to develop and produce it. Present day UKGovs look around to see where they can buy off the shelf.
As for 'tax payers' money, well JLR and all their staff and many of their suppliers and places where their staff spend their money are tax payers. UK Gov can afford to pour a lot into UK manufacturing and still be ahead of the game, or it could if it cared.
I've worked with Daimler-Benz and Bosch engineers. They aren't better than ours. The only difference that I perceive is persistence, but persistence requires sympathetic finance, which is where I started.
You're right, people don't seem to understand that industry needs long term consistent funding. Yes, our manufacturers have made mistakes, but so have the foreign competition. The difference, the very big difference, is access to finance. UK finance (banks, whatever) isn't interested in anything that pays back a few per cent. And if they do provide cash, woe betide the manufacturer if there's a downturn in the economy; the lender will not be sympathetic. In Germany, there's an obligation to support manufacturers. In France, the French government defends its industries; the amount of cash swallowed by Renault was huge. When the French government wants something, it sponsors an R&D project with a French company to develop and produce it. Present day UKGovs look around to see where they can buy off the shelf.
As for 'tax payers' money, well JLR and all their staff and many of their suppliers and places where their staff spend their money are tax payers. UK Gov can afford to pour a lot into UK manufacturing and still be ahead of the game, or it could if it cared.
I've worked with Daimler-Benz and Bosch engineers. They aren't better than ours. The only difference that I perceive is persistence, but persistence requires sympathetic finance, which is where I started.
One of the big problems for British Leyland in the 70's was their finances were feast or famine. They would start projects, then have a bad year, have to make cutbacks and ended up cancelling half finished projects. Wasting resource.
Worse, the stop/start development of models meant many of their cars were out of date before they hit the showrooms. Like the Maestro and Montego.
Give British engineers guaranteed funding for the long run, competent managers and motivated workforce to build their designs; they will beat the world. Sadly that rarely happens.
Ive read Daimler benz are cutting a thousand jobs and as for quality they are certainly no worse than other premium vehicles that use high tech. Just take a look at the position of BMW and Audi in the recent JD power surveys.
What I think they should have done is spend less time on the full electric car like the excellent I pace and more on getting the hybrids into the market quicker.
What I think they should have done is spend less time on the full electric car like the excellent I pace and more on getting the hybrids into the market quicker.
Isn't it true that Land Rover is profitable but jaguar is dragging them down?
Xe sales are poor and xf not much better. The fpace is also taking a hit as it becomes less competitive. It is ageing badly imo.
Whoever suggesting ditching the rrs is mental. It is a global hit and highly profitable, as is the evoque. I predict the defender will do well too despite what internet comments say.
I also don't agree with this Prestege cars should be the most reliable nonsense. Making a luxury product or 4x4 as reliable as a yarris has never been possible for the obvious reasons of complexity. Jlr have no small simple cars.
Yes Lexus manage it but they are freaks and reliability is like a usp to them.
Xe sales are poor and xf not much better. The fpace is also taking a hit as it becomes less competitive. It is ageing badly imo.
Whoever suggesting ditching the rrs is mental. It is a global hit and highly profitable, as is the evoque. I predict the defender will do well too despite what internet comments say.
I also don't agree with this Prestege cars should be the most reliable nonsense. Making a luxury product or 4x4 as reliable as a yarris has never been possible for the obvious reasons of complexity. Jlr have no small simple cars.
Yes Lexus manage it but they are freaks and reliability is like a usp to them.
cardigankid said:
bartelbe said:
Monkeylegend said:
Maybe if JLR worked on improving their reliability and improve the after sales service of their franchise network, they would not be in this position. When you are paying for a premuim product you expect a premium service and far higher levels of reliability.
Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.
Because it is in the long term economic interests of the country. What people forget, is when we lose our big manufacturing companies, it destroys a whole eco-system of medium and small companies that supply them. Once those are gone, it is very difficult to recreate them. Which is on the reasons the foreign car plants in the UK use so little UK content, when it comes parts.Why should they be bailed out with tax payers money for issues that are within their own control. They are the modern day British Leyland so we should not be surprised they find themselves in this position.
We have the world's second largest trade deficit, we are not paying our way in the world with services. If you have a suggestion on how we pay for all those imports, while making absolutely nothing, I am all ears.
The problem now is also exactly the same, which is political interference and the toleration of political interference. Britain went into WW2 with private enterprise in charge, and it came out of it with the politicians not only in charge but believing that they were capable of running the country and everything in it. Hence the NHS, hence nationalisation and all the rest. Since we are talking about JLR look specifically at Jaguar. Read Philip Porter’s superb book about Sir William Lyons. Lyons was starved of raw materials by Government departments and quotas, prevented by civil servants and exchange control from buying BMW which he could have done, and finally forced to allow his business to be run by civil service mandarins and the trade unions. Don’t take my word for it please read the book. In the end Lyons, who had lost his son in a tragic accident, gave up.
Political control of large business, particularly business which is seen as too large to fail, is insidious and extremely difficult to reverse, because it starts with the politicians ‘helping’ while the executives end up acting as functionaries and abdicate from any sense of responsibility for what ensues.
I have been predicting the demise of JLR for some time and giving the reasons for it. The biggest single factor has been following the political direction to move into diesel. I have no doubt JLR thought they were getting the inside track, and further, that because the politicians said it was going to happen that it was a guaranteed surefire winner. Anyone genuinely in business could tell you that everything is edgy, there are no surefire winners. They went all in and lost. That stripped the capital investment out of the business, and, in my judgement, Tata, which is not a sovereign wealth fund, isn’t going to refinance them and is looking to unload, partly or wholly. The next factor, which will certainly finish them if they last long enough, is the current political direction, which is BEV. Production of BEV is being driven by political dictat, not by customer demand. Even the Germans need to take care not to assume because politicians tell them BEV is the future, that they won’t change their minds. Because it isn’t. But JLR, having lost on diesel, are now betting their shirts and what’s left of the housekeeping money on BEV. And they are going to lose again because the market for these things is small and already saturated.
Of course, there are plenty of other issues, most of them self generated, and most of them with echoes of the 1970’s. Over ambitious unrealistic targets. Range Rover is going to take on Rolls-Royce. Of course they are. Delusional policy statements. A massively overblown Head Office function. Too many PR, Marketing and CI wonks. A megalomaniac dealership roll out programme. Failure to understand that in taking on the Germans they were fighting a war not a battle. Failure to follow through on the brilliant XF with finance deals that would have got real market penetration. Failure to deal with basic quality issues, because that, and the reputational damage it causes is the root cause of poor residuals. Extraordinary costly PR stunts. Far too much indulgence of executives. Squandering money as if they were already on a par with BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagen. And who is actually taking the decisions? Is there a committee somewhere dictating the design decisions? Compromised vehicles like the F Type. Balls ups like the XF facelift. Cars they did not need at all, like the XE. Complete dustbins like the new XJ. Sir W Lyons would never have allowed stuff like that to proceed in the days when he was really running the company. Callum was at best a 50/50 designer. Half his designs were clunkers, even if the other half were great. You point to one bum design Lyons approved. He didn’t need committees. That is the kind of guy you need running a car company. McGovern has also been given enough rope to hang himself. There are FAR too many models in the LR range. The Velar is a beautiful car. So what is the Range Rover Sport about? And who made the asinine decision NOT to release the bargain model Defender until 2021? Because that is the only model with a hope of selling in serious volume. How many expensive 4x4’s do you think they can sell? The company seems to be being dictated to by a committee which doesn’t know what it is doing.
I will tell you something else. The politicians of the UK don’t think they need a car industry, so they don’t care if JLR goes. I was told this by a senior civil servant. They think it is the past, they place no value on the huge and complex infrastructure, supply chains and expertise built up in the country over many decades. They are happy to see it scrapped the way Margaret Thatcher destroyed British industry in the belief that she was destroying trade unionism, and that we could survive as a service economy.
The British Government deserves to nationalise JLR. Because then it will be obvious who is responsible, and down to them to sort out the problems they have created. Which, equally obviously, they will fail to do.
You are right, by and large we are not paying our way in the world. We have somehow been separated from the need to be competitive. Whatever the solution is (and it could be to hit rock bottom and realise there is only one way forward which is going to be a far harder thing than people realise) it certainly isn’t Brexit. We are cutting ourselves off from the only people we know who can actually run car businesses.
bartelbe said:
You're right, people don't seem to understand that industry needs long term consistent funding.
One of the big problems for British Leyland in the 70's was their finances were feast or famine. They would start projects, then have a bad year, have to make cutbacks and ended up cancelling half finished projects. Wasting resource.
Worse, the stop/start development of models meant many of their cars were out of date before they hit the showrooms. Like the Maestro and Montego.
Give British engineers guaranteed funding for the long run, competent managers and motivated workforce to build their designs; they will beat the world. Sadly that rarely happens.
Even if they had the funding, if they are run by political appointees and responsible to politicians, it will still be a ballsup. It’s the Soviet Union by another name. BL was always going to fail.One of the big problems for British Leyland in the 70's was their finances were feast or famine. They would start projects, then have a bad year, have to make cutbacks and ended up cancelling half finished projects. Wasting resource.
Worse, the stop/start development of models meant many of their cars were out of date before they hit the showrooms. Like the Maestro and Montego.
Give British engineers guaranteed funding for the long run, competent managers and motivated workforce to build their designs; they will beat the world. Sadly that rarely happens.
There is a story today that Jaguar is "pausing" the development of the all-electric E-Type. I would have thought that project was a pretty good business case (they were going to be something like 350k each, and surely they would sell every one they made).
Makes me wonder what is going on.
I have owned pretty much every XJ from the Series 3 to the X350, but I haven't owned a Jaguar in some time now. There is just nothing in the range that appeals to me, and the reliability stories are putting me off. I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I have seen and heard enough to make me pause.
None of the current models appeal to me. The XJ was the closest, but it's discontinued now, and I'm not ready for a BEV (apparently the replacement will be BEV only).
Makes me wonder what is going on.
I have owned pretty much every XJ from the Series 3 to the X350, but I haven't owned a Jaguar in some time now. There is just nothing in the range that appeals to me, and the reliability stories are putting me off. I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I have seen and heard enough to make me pause.
None of the current models appeal to me. The XJ was the closest, but it's discontinued now, and I'm not ready for a BEV (apparently the replacement will be BEV only).
The LR but will be fine - it has strong brand appeal.
As for the J part I suspect it is doomed. How does a brand known for semi-luxury sporting cars stay relevant in a world where the SUV is king especially when the other part of the business makes luxury SUVs?
I read an article the other day where someone from LR had said why couldn’t they build a Road Rover i.e. a luxury car. I’d have thought “because Jaguar” was the answer. The fact LR are even thinking that is a bad sign.
As for the J part I suspect it is doomed. How does a brand known for semi-luxury sporting cars stay relevant in a world where the SUV is king especially when the other part of the business makes luxury SUVs?
I read an article the other day where someone from LR had said why couldn’t they build a Road Rover i.e. a luxury car. I’d have thought “because Jaguar” was the answer. The fact LR are even thinking that is a bad sign.
AmitG said:
There is a story today that Jaguar is "pausing" the development of the all-electric E-Type. I would have thought that project was a pretty good business case (they were going to be something like 350k each, and surely they would sell every one they made)...
Would they? Would you buy one? Frankly there are a lot of things I would spend £350k on before I got to an electric E Type, which is little more than a gimmick with its mojo surgically removed. IMHO what they are doing is focussing on what is business critical and saving on everything else.
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 27th December 10:52
RDMcG said:
Look at any photograph of a British city from (say 1958) and you will see a huge preponderance of domestically produce cars. By the way, look at the US from the same period and the same will apply. Of course there were some wonderful cars at the pinnacle, but where the average buyer sat the cars were good but a little dull.
Roll forward and the first low quality Japanese stuff appeared, followed by low quality Korean stuff. It was cheap and economical though and it gradually got MUCH better at the same time as domestic production was inefficient and of declining quality.
Forget all the Mercedes/Porsche/ Ferrari stuff...rare and hens' teeth with tiny volumes so did not matter. VW,Toyota,Renault and the rest were on the move while domestic was increasingly strangled by unions and regulation. In the US a backward-looking industry produced big old car and some muscle cars and sneered at the emergency of the little foreign junk.
Very little was produced for enthusiasts...the Jag was closest, but then people like BMW were producing quality product like the 2002 which I remember fondly in my young days. Tastes had changed and the underinvestment domestically was showing. IN the end, the quality was much lower than the Germans and the Japanese, and , astonishingly, the Korean cars that had started with thing like the abominable Hyundai Pony.
Now we will start to proclaim the awful Chinese junk ( no not the boat) when it arrives. It will be bad, then good, then excellent. The secret it to make the intro product so cheap that people will accept the problems and then build up the market to good product.
At the high end like JLR, the product must be bulletproof. No excuses.
For instance Porsche makes a very high quality product. (Yes, I have some, but not a purist, and am well aware of exploding GT3s). the statistics for the volume stuff like Macans and the like are very good. Toyota/Lexus/Kia make very good product and have the resources to develop new stuff. VW is putting $50 Billion into electric and sharing the cost across all of its Marques. The Taycan is really a badge-engineered ( but good ) platform for all of the others. This the development cost is manageable.
As I posted to start the thread....it is worrying for JLR.
I take no satisfaction either. These brands have important and impressive history and it would be a crying shame to lost them.
I have to question the statement that Porsche make a high quality product. The fit and finish are beautiful, but the more I read about ruinous problems with the 996, 997, the Macan etc etc the more I am sure that I will never touch one, as tempting as they are. Half shaft failures, fuel injector problems, IMS bearing failures, engines self destructing following scoring of cylinders and pistons. Research suggests that these are not isolated failures, but are quite common. My interpretation of a high quality car is one that should reach 199, 000 maybe 150,000 miles without major issues.Roll forward and the first low quality Japanese stuff appeared, followed by low quality Korean stuff. It was cheap and economical though and it gradually got MUCH better at the same time as domestic production was inefficient and of declining quality.
Forget all the Mercedes/Porsche/ Ferrari stuff...rare and hens' teeth with tiny volumes so did not matter. VW,Toyota,Renault and the rest were on the move while domestic was increasingly strangled by unions and regulation. In the US a backward-looking industry produced big old car and some muscle cars and sneered at the emergency of the little foreign junk.
Very little was produced for enthusiasts...the Jag was closest, but then people like BMW were producing quality product like the 2002 which I remember fondly in my young days. Tastes had changed and the underinvestment domestically was showing. IN the end, the quality was much lower than the Germans and the Japanese, and , astonishingly, the Korean cars that had started with thing like the abominable Hyundai Pony.
Now we will start to proclaim the awful Chinese junk ( no not the boat) when it arrives. It will be bad, then good, then excellent. The secret it to make the intro product so cheap that people will accept the problems and then build up the market to good product.
At the high end like JLR, the product must be bulletproof. No excuses.
For instance Porsche makes a very high quality product. (Yes, I have some, but not a purist, and am well aware of exploding GT3s). the statistics for the volume stuff like Macans and the like are very good. Toyota/Lexus/Kia make very good product and have the resources to develop new stuff. VW is putting $50 Billion into electric and sharing the cost across all of its Marques. The Taycan is really a badge-engineered ( but good ) platform for all of the others. This the development cost is manageable.
As I posted to start the thread....it is worrying for JLR.
I take no satisfaction either. These brands have important and impressive history and it would be a crying shame to lost them.
lornemalvo said:
I have to question the statement that Porsche make a high quality product. The fit and finish are beautiful, but the more I read about ruinous problems with the 996, 997, the Macan etc etc the more I am sure that I will never touch one, as tempting as they are. Half shaft failures, fuel injector problems, IMS bearing failures, engines self destructing following scoring of cylinders and pistons. Research suggests that these are not isolated failures, but are quite common. My interpretation of a high quality car is one that should reach 199, 000 maybe 150,000 miles without major issues.
Of course they have failures and some have been quite serious; however, they do quite well in consumer surveys in terms of reliability. I have a number of them and reliability is good. I have 264,000km on a Cayenne S for instance, and only one major failure. Couple of 997RS and a 991RS with the usual recalls but quite bulletproof. I think most Porsche enthusiasts are well aware of the problems you mentioned, yet they are not everyday occurrences.
Porsche is far from perfect, and like any car that started life in the higher end of the market, parts and maintenance do not decline in price even as the car depreciates.
I suspect that most Porsches at 200,000 miles would be pretty shot though
Question - do people think that PSA would make a serious bid for Jaguar?
I can see the logic. PSA has no "sporting luxury" brand, and have openly said that they would like one. DS is more about comfort than sporty. And if you want a sporting luxury brand, there are not many to choose from. I doubt that FCA would ever sell Maserati or Alfa Romeo. Buying Aston Martin would probably not fit, although their share price must be temptingly low now...
Jaguar still has a lot of brand equity. And Tata are probably anxious to offload it.
And I have to say that PSA seem to do pretty well with their brand portfolio. They seem to be putting out a lot of good stuff and they seem to move very quickly - witness the speed with which they completely re-engineered the Corsa to get off GM technology, and the speed with which they refactored Vauxhall, even killing sacred cows like the Insignia estate.
DS is not doing great but they claim to be in for the long haul there...we will see I guess.
I could see PSA buying Jaguar and putting everything onto PSA platforms while keeping a distinctive visual identity. I would guess that Land Rover is not for sale, but who knows...maybe Tata would offload both. I know that a lot of the dealerships have been combined into JLR dealerships, so maybe the two cannot be separated so easily.
I can see the logic. PSA has no "sporting luxury" brand, and have openly said that they would like one. DS is more about comfort than sporty. And if you want a sporting luxury brand, there are not many to choose from. I doubt that FCA would ever sell Maserati or Alfa Romeo. Buying Aston Martin would probably not fit, although their share price must be temptingly low now...
Jaguar still has a lot of brand equity. And Tata are probably anxious to offload it.
And I have to say that PSA seem to do pretty well with their brand portfolio. They seem to be putting out a lot of good stuff and they seem to move very quickly - witness the speed with which they completely re-engineered the Corsa to get off GM technology, and the speed with which they refactored Vauxhall, even killing sacred cows like the Insignia estate.
DS is not doing great but they claim to be in for the long haul there...we will see I guess.
I could see PSA buying Jaguar and putting everything onto PSA platforms while keeping a distinctive visual identity. I would guess that Land Rover is not for sale, but who knows...maybe Tata would offload both. I know that a lot of the dealerships have been combined into JLR dealerships, so maybe the two cannot be separated so easily.
Results far from stellar although report sees some hope:
https://www.autonews.com/sales/jaguar-land-rover-g...
https://www.autonews.com/sales/jaguar-land-rover-g...
AmitG said:
Question - do people think that PSA would make a serious bid for Jaguar?
I can see the logic. PSA has no "sporting luxury" brand, and have openly said that they would like one. DS is more about comfort than sporty. And if you want a sporting luxury brand, there are not many to choose from. I doubt that FCA would ever sell Maserati or Alfa Romeo. Buying Aston Martin would probably not fit, although their share price must be temptingly low now...
Jaguar still has a lot of brand equity. And Tata are probably anxious to offload it.
And I have to say that PSA seem to do pretty well with their brand portfolio. They seem to be putting out a lot of good stuff and they seem to move very quickly - witness the speed with which they completely re-engineered the Corsa to get off GM technology, and the speed with which they refactored Vauxhall, even killing sacred cows like the Insignia estate.
DS is not doing great but they claim to be in for the long haul there...we will see I guess.
I could see PSA buying Jaguar and putting everything onto PSA platforms while keeping a distinctive visual identity. I would guess that Land Rover is not for sale, but who knows...maybe Tata would offload both. I know that a lot of the dealerships have been combined into JLR dealerships, so maybe the two cannot be separated so easily.
wouldn't be very French to make a pride of Britain brand their halo car though would it?I can see the logic. PSA has no "sporting luxury" brand, and have openly said that they would like one. DS is more about comfort than sporty. And if you want a sporting luxury brand, there are not many to choose from. I doubt that FCA would ever sell Maserati or Alfa Romeo. Buying Aston Martin would probably not fit, although their share price must be temptingly low now...
Jaguar still has a lot of brand equity. And Tata are probably anxious to offload it.
And I have to say that PSA seem to do pretty well with their brand portfolio. They seem to be putting out a lot of good stuff and they seem to move very quickly - witness the speed with which they completely re-engineered the Corsa to get off GM technology, and the speed with which they refactored Vauxhall, even killing sacred cows like the Insignia estate.
DS is not doing great but they claim to be in for the long haul there...we will see I guess.
I could see PSA buying Jaguar and putting everything onto PSA platforms while keeping a distinctive visual identity. I would guess that Land Rover is not for sale, but who knows...maybe Tata would offload both. I know that a lot of the dealerships have been combined into JLR dealerships, so maybe the two cannot be separated so easily.
Seems like a good idea though, jag gets the economies of scale necessary for survival and I think the car
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