Cerbera Rolling Road Day - Aug 13th....show me the horses!
Discussion
Noisy said:
Its a lot of work considering my standard build 4.0S speed 6 made 380bhp though.
when you put it like that, i cant disagree!! I guess we have to assume there is a great deal more to come from the 4.5SS? How could Dany's race sag be competitive with 'only' 390 bhp? The Cerb 4.5 in the GT cup series is of a similar competitiveness is it not? By virtue of these results, you would expect it to be 450bhp+?
Forgive the silly questions, im just curious!
Robertjp said:
Noisy said:
Its a lot of work considering my standard build 4.0S speed 6 made 380bhp though.
when you put it like that, i cant disagree!! I guess we have to assume there is a great deal more to come from the 4.5SS? How could Dany's race sag be competitive with 'only' 390 bhp? The Cerb 4.5 in the GT cup series is of a similar competitiveness is it not? By virtue of these results, you would expect it to be 450bhp+?
Forgive the silly questions, im just curious!
DW is clearly a very good racer and without knowing the actual calibre of the other guys in the field you may be looking at a situation where the driver is noteably better than the others. We all know that in general motorsports there are more teams out there with budgets that are far greater than the talent. Maybe if DW was in the crappest car on the grid he would still get to the front. That's certainly beeen seen enough time before and certainly everyone appears to rate him as a driver.
It could also be that the ancilliaries around the engine are quite different, meaning less drain.
It could also be that the engine itself is different or it's set up is.
s5tvr said:
Was that also at SRR though ?
Thing is why go 4.2 ? surely a full fat 4.5 AJP8 conversion would make more sense. I'm guessing the AJP8 would fit but induction would be a problem I think.
I only suggested a 4.2 ajp for equivalence vs. the 4.5 sp6. If you were going to do it, im guessing a 4.5 would be a better bet with upwards of 450bhp available. Just seems to me, unless there is more to come from the 4.5 sp6, then you could source a 4.5 for £2-£3k and get it installed propoerly for one helluva a lot less than the 4.5ss. I guess to be fair, we are talking brand new 4.5SS VS. Used 4.5 ajp, so that isnt exactly apples and apples. But, to counter this, we also know ajp's are good for over 100k miles without issue, so would this really be a primary factor in a decision? Probably not. Thing is why go 4.2 ? surely a full fat 4.5 AJP8 conversion would make more sense. I'm guessing the AJP8 would fit but induction would be a problem I think.
Im sure its been asked before and maybe im missing something fundamental, and i know there are complications, wet sump vs dry sump, chassis mods etc etc etc but if it fits in a griff its going to go into a Tuscan or Sag, uses the same box and drive train and is lighter.
Sorry dont want to steer off topic, though the feedback on the numbers had dried up a bit!
DonkeyApple said:
The problem with the racing aspect it that it can be an awful red herring.
DW is clearly a very good racer and without knowing the actual calibre of the other guys in the field you may be looking at a situation where the driver is noteably better than the others. We all know that in general motorsports there are more teams out there with budgets that are far greater than the talent. Maybe if DW was in the crappest car on the grid he would still get to the front. That's certainly beeen seen enough time before and certainly everyone appears to rate him as a driver.
It could also be that the ancilliaries around the engine are quite different, meaning less drain.
It could also be that the engine itself is different or it's set up is.
Take your point, its quite difficult to draw conclusions with so many variables. Equally though, the car and engine setup must be of a certain level to even be competitive DW is clearly a very good racer and without knowing the actual calibre of the other guys in the field you may be looking at a situation where the driver is noteably better than the others. We all know that in general motorsports there are more teams out there with budgets that are far greater than the talent. Maybe if DW was in the crappest car on the grid he would still get to the front. That's certainly beeen seen enough time before and certainly everyone appears to rate him as a driver.
It could also be that the ancilliaries around the engine are quite different, meaning less drain.
It could also be that the engine itself is different or it's set up is.
Robertjp said:
DonkeyApple said:
The problem with the racing aspect it that it can be an awful red herring.
DW is clearly a very good racer and without knowing the actual calibre of the other guys in the field you may be looking at a situation where the driver is noteably better than the others. We all know that in general motorsports there are more teams out there with budgets that are far greater than the talent. Maybe if DW was in the crappest car on the grid he would still get to the front. That's certainly beeen seen enough time before and certainly everyone appears to rate him as a driver.
It could also be that the ancilliaries around the engine are quite different, meaning less drain.
It could also be that the engine itself is different or it's set up is.
Take your point, its quite difficult to draw conclusions with so many variables. Equally though, the car and engine setup must be of a certain level to even be competitive DW is clearly a very good racer and without knowing the actual calibre of the other guys in the field you may be looking at a situation where the driver is noteably better than the others. We all know that in general motorsports there are more teams out there with budgets that are far greater than the talent. Maybe if DW was in the crappest car on the grid he would still get to the front. That's certainly beeen seen enough time before and certainly everyone appears to rate him as a driver.
It could also be that the ancilliaries around the engine are quite different, meaning less drain.
It could also be that the engine itself is different or it's set up is.
Whether it's a results from a RR session or results on the circuit there are just so many variable that even the most mediocre of politicians or salesmen could argue their point well.
I think the SRR session holds a lot of validity as it seems like the first real ocassion when there was a good cross section of engines through on the same day on the same system and the numbers didn't appear to throw up anything that would be classed as anomalous to previous similar events.
Likewise, the argument that it can only be proven on a circuit seems frivolous as these are road cars for use on the road and the differences between what works on the road and what works on the track can be enormous, plus all the track variables we've mentioned above.
I think the only real conclusion to be had that would be fair would be that we do have some relatively consistant ball park figues for most types of engine, that generally more can be squeezed out of the basic unit (maybe 10-15% before financials make it silly?) and that S6 owners have a bright future ahead with a choice of several excellent options to suit different styles as well as budgets.
I think it would also be fair to reach the conclusion that on comparative cc, the ajp still surpasses the s6 at this moment in time?
Robertjp said:
stuff
A 4.5 AJP with a few quid spent on it should break 400bhp (eg exhaust, decatt, remap and short induction). To get to 450bhp you will need to spend money on internal mods and it will get expensive. If you want over 450 bhp then you will need a 4.7 conversion. A decent S6 is fast enough at 360bhp but if it was my money I would investigate the Racing Green FFF heads. If that can really easily push over 400bhp then that would be an interesting option, particularly if it does all the other things claimed of it.
T40ORA said:
T40ORA said:
s5tvr said:
Didn't a car with RG's Mk 1 FFF run at SRR a long while back ? can anyone remember what bhp/torque it made ?
The demo FFF Gen 1 came in at 392 bhp on Charlies kit. The FFF Gen 2 came maxed out at about 450, but they de-tuned it to about 436 I think to improve the driveability.I think that I have a copy of the graph; I'l try to find it and post it.
Nice strong torque curve too; it will be impressive when they add the VVT.
Dom has built an engine with much improved torque than standard and also offers a 5 year 100k warranty as standard, his race engine has also done over 4k hard miles in the hands of the very talented Danny Winstanley with no problems, Andy Ruhan (997 GT3 Cup) is a very quick driver though the Sagaris 4.5 Supersport with Danny is quicker, it's a no brainer
No other S6 engine builder comes close, no other S6 engine builder offers the warranty, no other S6 engine builder has the race wins.
If an engine can be strong and reliable on the race track it will have no problem on the road.
Good luck to RG but they are well off what Power are doing at the mo.
Brummmie said:
Torque wins races, horsepower sells cars...
v8 racing said:
Alexdaredevilz said:
Could you explain why a speed six engine and ajp engine is faster? also used in a slightly heavier car
As the rover v8's make more torque clearly in your eyes it should fly past? but they don't.........
Yes im probably opening up a can of worms here
IMO its a light car it doesn't need 400ft/lb's of torque
I have to say this bhp v torque has allways made me snigger, and that comment from years back torque wins races! err no it doesnt, to prove it i will enter my freinds jcb in a race against a btcc car, jcb 1500ftlb btcc car 250ftlb, pointless racing really on paper its allready won!, seriously toooo many variables to even compare the two.As the rover v8's make more torque clearly in your eyes it should fly past? but they don't.........
Yes im probably opening up a can of worms here
IMO its a light car it doesn't need 400ft/lb's of torque
Torque will get you off the line quicker no argument there, but once you are rolling bhp wins hands down, unless you have a gearbox that when you change up at 6000 rpm it drops back down to tickover, the same given car/weight/tyres etc... the higher the bhp the faster that car will be, now driveability and lazy/poodling around town in high gears thats where the low down torque wins.
Torque wins races sorry its a myth
Dannys car is way more std than people think , it's got std 4.5 tvr power motor ( no point making more power as we will only get protested , it is on all std suspension pick up point even with std rubber bushes , no air con, no pas the only fancy thing is the gearbox and big brembos. Danny is clearly a very good driver with a sensible head on young shoulders and he likes the car a bit loose which is easy with a sagaris so it makes a good package , I'm sure he could win in most of the cars but it is good to see him doing it in a car done on such a small budget . I think there are cars in the race running more power than they should but thats always going to happen in this type of racing . One of the problems is they can use different dynos and different dynos read different results and always will it's not possible to compare two different types as they can read very different figures as we see here they are a tool to use so do before and after on the same Dyno to see if mods work or for Dyno days it's compared to others on the Dyno on the day . Anyway roll on the next race !!
very interesting reading, I must admit after now experiencing the speed 6 and ajp, I would have to think very hard if anything were to happen to my sags speed 6 engine, possibly the only reason to replace it with another speed 6 is to keep the originality of the car with a view to selling on at some point in the distant future, however, if I think about which engine I`d prefer I would definately look at the possibilities of dropping an ajp into the sag, now that would be an awesome car to drive
s5tvr said:
Noisy said:
Its a lot of work considering my standard build 4.0S speed 6 made 380bhp though.
Was that also at SRR though ?Thing is why go 4.2 ? surely a full fat 4.5 AJP8 conversion would make more sense. I'm guessing the AJP8 would fit but induction would be a problem I think.
Have to agree with some of the other comments on here. Doms engine is proven is 'race' apec and its reliability is therefore proven. You are getting a brand new unit top to bottom.
Also, my comments re the AJP dont take into account the fact that with Doms car you get unlimited warranty and probably a lifetime of support knowing Dom and how he stands behind his work. Furthermore, its a brand new design that will probably be developed, the AJP's took a good few years to make their numbers, for example short induction. I would think there is more to come from the 4.5ss.
I guess you pays your money....
My comments over AJP reliability remain though, it is good for 100k, a few examples out there. Sure some have HAD work, as for how many NEEDED it? not really much evidence of inherent flaws, maybe head gaskets, early 4.2 cranks, but other than that???? I was making a relatively loose comparison really, but its not that simple im well aware.
Then there is the RG FFF heads. I remain to be convinced there!! RG have never exactly endeared themselves with the service i have got from them, and their attitude is in a different league to some of the better engine builders, and that isnt meant as a compliment.
I also wouldnt stick FFF heads on a sp6 engine without other work - the bottom end 'out of the factory' wasnt what you would consider consistently good quality! How long it would last god knows! IF they work great, but i'd put money on the 'package' being more than the 4.5SS from Power. By the time you buy the heads, engine removal and reinstallationm, have the rest of the engine built to a standard thats good for 450bhp, i think you will be @ £10k before adding on the new ECU, other instrumentation such as the TC sensors, mapping and any other work. If im wrong....well...i would be genuinely surprised!!
Also, my comments re the AJP dont take into account the fact that with Doms car you get unlimited warranty and probably a lifetime of support knowing Dom and how he stands behind his work. Furthermore, its a brand new design that will probably be developed, the AJP's took a good few years to make their numbers, for example short induction. I would think there is more to come from the 4.5ss.
I guess you pays your money....
My comments over AJP reliability remain though, it is good for 100k, a few examples out there. Sure some have HAD work, as for how many NEEDED it? not really much evidence of inherent flaws, maybe head gaskets, early 4.2 cranks, but other than that???? I was making a relatively loose comparison really, but its not that simple im well aware.
Then there is the RG FFF heads. I remain to be convinced there!! RG have never exactly endeared themselves with the service i have got from them, and their attitude is in a different league to some of the better engine builders, and that isnt meant as a compliment.
I also wouldnt stick FFF heads on a sp6 engine without other work - the bottom end 'out of the factory' wasnt what you would consider consistently good quality! How long it would last god knows! IF they work great, but i'd put money on the 'package' being more than the 4.5SS from Power. By the time you buy the heads, engine removal and reinstallationm, have the rest of the engine built to a standard thats good for 450bhp, i think you will be @ £10k before adding on the new ECU, other instrumentation such as the TC sensors, mapping and any other work. If im wrong....well...i would be genuinely surprised!!
clive f said:
very interesting reading, I must admit after now experiencing the speed 6 and ajp, I would have to think very hard if anything were to happen to my sags speed 6 engine, possibly the only reason to replace it with another speed 6 is to keep the originality of the car with a view to selling on at some point in the distant future, however, if I think about which engine I`d prefer I would definately look at the possibilities of dropping an ajp into the sag, now that would be an awesome car to drive
As much as I love AJP8's and IMHO................No to thatGassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff