Cerbera Rolling Road Day - Aug 13th....show me the horses!
Discussion
HarryW said:
clive f said:
very interesting reading, I must admit after now experiencing the speed 6 and ajp, I would have to think very hard if anything were to happen to my sags speed 6 engine, possibly the only reason to replace it with another speed 6 is to keep the originality of the car with a view to selling on at some point in the distant future, however, if I think about which engine I`d prefer I would definately look at the possibilities of dropping an ajp into the sag, now that would be an awesome car to drive
As much as I love AJP8's and IMHO................No to thatRobertjp said:
Have to agree with some of the other comments on here. Doms engine is proven is 'race' apec and its reliability is therefore proven. You are getting a brand new unit top to bottom.
Also, my comments re the AJP dont take into account the fact that with Doms car you get unlimited warranty and probably a lifetime of support knowing Dom and how he stands behind his work. Furthermore, its a brand new design that will probably be developed, the AJP's took a good few years to make their numbers, for example short induction. I would think there is more to come from the 4.5ss.
I guess you pays your money....
My comments over AJP reliability remain though, it is good for 100k, a few examples out there. Sure some have HAD work, as for how many NEEDED it? not really much evidence of inherent flaws, maybe head gaskets, early 4.2 cranks, but other than that???? I was making a relatively loose comparison really, but its not that simple im well aware.
Then there is the RG FFF heads. I remain to be convinced there!! RG have never exactly endeared themselves with the service i have got from them, and their attitude is in a different league to some of the better engine builders, and that isnt meant as a compliment.
I also wouldnt stick FFF heads on a sp6 engine without other work - the bottom end 'out of the factory' wasnt what you would consider consistently good quality! How long it would last god knows! IF they work great, but i'd put money on the 'package' being more than the 4.5SS from Power. By the time you buy the heads, engine removal and reinstallationm, have the rest of the engine built to a standard thats good for 450bhp, i think you will be @ £10k before adding on the new ECU, other instrumentation such as the TC sensors, mapping and any other work. If im wrong....well...i would be genuinely surprised!!
Not sure where to start but....Also, my comments re the AJP dont take into account the fact that with Doms car you get unlimited warranty and probably a lifetime of support knowing Dom and how he stands behind his work. Furthermore, its a brand new design that will probably be developed, the AJP's took a good few years to make their numbers, for example short induction. I would think there is more to come from the 4.5ss.
I guess you pays your money....
My comments over AJP reliability remain though, it is good for 100k, a few examples out there. Sure some have HAD work, as for how many NEEDED it? not really much evidence of inherent flaws, maybe head gaskets, early 4.2 cranks, but other than that???? I was making a relatively loose comparison really, but its not that simple im well aware.
Then there is the RG FFF heads. I remain to be convinced there!! RG have never exactly endeared themselves with the service i have got from them, and their attitude is in a different league to some of the better engine builders, and that isnt meant as a compliment.
I also wouldnt stick FFF heads on a sp6 engine without other work - the bottom end 'out of the factory' wasnt what you would consider consistently good quality! How long it would last god knows! IF they work great, but i'd put money on the 'package' being more than the 4.5SS from Power. By the time you buy the heads, engine removal and reinstallationm, have the rest of the engine built to a standard thats good for 450bhp, i think you will be @ £10k before adding on the new ECU, other instrumentation such as the TC sensors, mapping and any other work. If im wrong....well...i would be genuinely surprised!!
What unlimited warranty? I thought it was 5 years plus some small print (eg no rolling roads or regular tracking.
Lifetime of support? How can that be provided?
Brand new design - what is a brand new design? The S6 is the same design it was in 99. The S6 extra power comes mainly from capacity increase (from what I Can see from the recent numbers)
The AJP design didnt get changed - the bhp improvements came mainly from mapping changes.
There are plenty of AJPs rebuilds - I have paid for quite a few myself!
You dont like Racing Green - but is that relevant to the quality of their work?
If they have made engineering changes to the engine then I suspect you are right that one of their builds will be more expensive that a Power capacity increase/rebuild.
Gazzab said:
HarryW said:
clive f said:
very interesting reading, I must admit after now experiencing the speed 6 and ajp, I would have to think very hard if anything were to happen to my sags speed 6 engine, possibly the only reason to replace it with another speed 6 is to keep the originality of the car with a view to selling on at some point in the distant future, however, if I think about which engine I`d prefer I would definately look at the possibilities of dropping an ajp into the sag, now that would be an awesome car to drive
As much as I love AJP8's and IMHO................No to thatnatben said:
Let's keep it real, while I agree the AJP8 is a strong engine there are plenty that have needed engine work long before they get to that figure .
OK, There are a few but you never know how they were treated. Did they warm them up before thrashing, lovingly caress them with servicing etc. Same goes for the speed 6.BCA had one with nearly 100K miles on and there's neen quite a few others. Mines currently on 46K (touch wood) with the original clutch and never touched the engine other than servicing.
clive f said:
very interesting reading, I must admit after now experiencing the speed 6 and ajp, I would have to think very hard if anything were to happen to my sags speed 6 engine, possibly the only reason to replace it with another speed 6 is to keep the originality of the car with a view to selling on at some point in the distant future, however, if I think about which engine I`d prefer I would definately look at the possibilities of dropping an ajp into the sag, now that would be an awesome car to drive
Really? With Powers warranty and the originality factor I'd stick with the speed 6Gazzab said:
Robertjp said:
Have to agree with some of the other comments on here. Doms engine is proven is 'race' apec and its reliability is therefore proven. You are getting a brand new unit top to bottom.
Also, my comments re the AJP dont take into account the fact that with Doms car you get unlimited warranty and probably a lifetime of support knowing Dom and how he stands behind his work. Furthermore, its a brand new design that will probably be developed, the AJP's took a good few years to make their numbers, for example short induction. I would think there is more to come from the 4.5ss.
I guess you pays your money....
My comments over AJP reliability remain though, it is good for 100k, a few examples out there. Sure some have HAD work, as for how many NEEDED it? not really much evidence of inherent flaws, maybe head gaskets, early 4.2 cranks, but other than that???? I was making a relatively loose comparison really, but its not that simple im well aware.
Then there is the RG FFF heads. I remain to be convinced there!! RG have never exactly endeared themselves with the service i have got from them, and their attitude is in a different league to some of the better engine builders, and that isnt meant as a compliment.
I also wouldnt stick FFF heads on a sp6 engine without other work - the bottom end 'out of the factory' wasnt what you would consider consistently good quality! How long it would last god knows! IF they work great, but i'd put money on the 'package' being more than the 4.5SS from Power. By the time you buy the heads, engine removal and reinstallationm, have the rest of the engine built to a standard thats good for 450bhp, i think you will be @ £10k before adding on the new ECU, other instrumentation such as the TC sensors, mapping and any other work. If im wrong....well...i would be genuinely surprised!!
Not sure where to start but....Also, my comments re the AJP dont take into account the fact that with Doms car you get unlimited warranty and probably a lifetime of support knowing Dom and how he stands behind his work. Furthermore, its a brand new design that will probably be developed, the AJP's took a good few years to make their numbers, for example short induction. I would think there is more to come from the 4.5ss.
I guess you pays your money....
My comments over AJP reliability remain though, it is good for 100k, a few examples out there. Sure some have HAD work, as for how many NEEDED it? not really much evidence of inherent flaws, maybe head gaskets, early 4.2 cranks, but other than that???? I was making a relatively loose comparison really, but its not that simple im well aware.
Then there is the RG FFF heads. I remain to be convinced there!! RG have never exactly endeared themselves with the service i have got from them, and their attitude is in a different league to some of the better engine builders, and that isnt meant as a compliment.
I also wouldnt stick FFF heads on a sp6 engine without other work - the bottom end 'out of the factory' wasnt what you would consider consistently good quality! How long it would last god knows! IF they work great, but i'd put money on the 'package' being more than the 4.5SS from Power. By the time you buy the heads, engine removal and reinstallationm, have the rest of the engine built to a standard thats good for 450bhp, i think you will be @ £10k before adding on the new ECU, other instrumentation such as the TC sensors, mapping and any other work. If im wrong....well...i would be genuinely surprised!!
What unlimited warranty? I thought it was 5 years plus some small print (eg no rolling roads or regular tracking.
Lifetime of support? How can that be provided?
Brand new design - what is a brand new design? The S6 is the same design it was in 99. The S6 extra power comes mainly from capacity increase (from what I Can see from the recent numbers)
The AJP design didnt get changed - the bhp improvements came mainly from mapping changes.
There are plenty of AJPs rebuilds - I have paid for quite a few myself!
You dont like Racing Green - but is that relevant to the quality of their work?
If they have made engineering changes to the engine then I suspect you are right that one of their builds will be more expensive that a Power capacity increase/rebuild.
Your right with a lot of what you have said Gazzab, not quite sure where you are coming from though?! I was simply making some points about my eariler post, about the alternative engine change to an AJP being more cost effective than the 4.5ss, but i was myself recognising here that there is a lot more to it than that...i wasnt making observations in fine detail though.
I was also suggesting that Dom would support any customer who purchased a 4.5ss for the time they owned the car - what i would consider a 'lifetime' of support. A generalisation again, but one i felt comfortable making, kowing how Dom treats his customers. This whole thread, whilst it was simply a RR day, has enabled a direct comparison between some engine choices open to people, but by my own admission thats not the whole story.
As for design change - yep, you are right again, i was just making the point that this latest 'incarnation' probably has more to come, and making a similar comparison to the AJP development. I'd be surpirsed if there wasnt given that a 4.0s can make 380 on SRR.
The AJP is a reliable and well proven design - no-one can argue there. Sure people have had work, but if i was buying another Cerb the engine wouldnt be my primary worry, or buying a used AJP it wouldnt be a massive concern, thats all. The same definitely isnt true of a sp6. Dont get me wrong, im a big fan of both. Not sure why im being questioned here....i thought it was generally accepted, is the Cerb section not a place for lovers of the AJP V8?! I was highlighting that, particularly after seeing the numbers from this comparison day, is still is a great alternative to a speed 6 even with all the development of late.
Im afraid the quality of RG's work is intrinsically linked to their attitude. Whilst their engineering appears to be sound, their attention to detail (and im referring to direct experience of one of their sp6 rebuilds here) aftercare and customer service leaves a lot to be desired (i know im skirting on the edge of the name and shame rules here). The results would have to be stunning for me to sned my cash there way...
Edited by Robertjp on Wednesday 17th August 09:58
SAGRIFF said:
Thats great though i'm sure if Dom built a one off demo just for a RR shoot out he could better them numbers,
Dom has built an engine with much improved torque than standard and also offers a 5 year 100k warranty as standard, his race engine has also done over 4k hard miles in the hands of the very talented Danny Winstanley with no problems, Andy Ruhan (997 GT3 Cup) is a very quick driver though the Sagaris 4.5 Supersport with Danny is quicker, it's a no brainer
No other S6 engine builder comes close, no other S6 engine builder offers the warranty, no other S6 engine builder has the race wins.
If an engine can be strong and reliable on the race track it will have no problem on the road.
Good luck to RG but they are well off what Power are doing at the mo.
In their defense, they do have to wait on one of their suppliers to get the heads, due to the misfortune of his premises burning down, and having to restart over again.Dom has built an engine with much improved torque than standard and also offers a 5 year 100k warranty as standard, his race engine has also done over 4k hard miles in the hands of the very talented Danny Winstanley with no problems, Andy Ruhan (997 GT3 Cup) is a very quick driver though the Sagaris 4.5 Supersport with Danny is quicker, it's a no brainer
No other S6 engine builder comes close, no other S6 engine builder offers the warranty, no other S6 engine builder has the race wins.
If an engine can be strong and reliable on the race track it will have no problem on the road.
Good luck to RG but they are well off what Power are doing at the mo.
As for "building a one off" for a RR shootout... the demo FFF2 engine is the test mule for what will become the standard FFF engine offering in time, so no one offs there. IF there is such a "one off" engine, without a doubt, it's mine.
s5tvr said:
Who did you get to rebuild the engine ? Also is everything else pretty standard ? de-catted, standard engine management system ? 380bhp is very good on SRR
It was built by Jason at str8six, before the rebuild it made 364, its running a standard management, with a standard chip. I have run with and without cats and made about 1-2 bhp difference but haven't tried a Decat chip with it. The last run was with the cats in place.WhyTwo said:
I was slightly disappointed with 341 from my 04 plate 4.2. Only had it a couple of months so no done anything at all to it. It's totally standard but I was planning a remap anyway which should release a few more horses. Apparently it's running a bit rich too and I think the throttle bodies could do with a bit of balancing. Objective achieved though in getting a bench mark to build from.
It's going to Str8six next week for the master cylinder so I'll get Jason to have a fiddle with it whilst it's there too see if I can close the gap to DemonDad's impressive 364!
Right so it's back from Str8six and now I know why it under performed at SRR.It's going to Str8six next week for the master cylinder so I'll get Jason to have a fiddle with it whilst it's there too see if I can close the gap to DemonDad's impressive 364!
One lambda was dead, hence the over fueling, so that's been replaced. The valve clearances were way out and, according to Jason, had not been adjusted for years, so they've been done and the throttle bodies were leaking - 1 even had the 'o' ring missing! These have now been balanced.
Unfortunately it was torrential rain all the way home today so I couldn't open it up to see the difference but even at low revs/speed it seems a lot healthier/smoother.
Guess I need to get back to SRR to see how it improves on 341HP/250ftlbs (which under the circumstances wasn't bad at all!)!
Edited by WhyTwo on Thursday 18th August 15:35
Byker28i said:
OK, There are a few but you never know how they were treated. Did they warm them up before thrashing, lovingly caress them with servicing etc. Same goes for the speed 6.
BCA had one with nearly 100K miles on and there's neen quite a few others. Mines currently on 46K (touch wood) with the original clutch and never touched the engine other than servicing.
Yup, it is still going strong too and I dont doubt it'll continue to do so for a fair while yet. I think SimonSparrow is on 130k miles or more now too. Bloody awesome engine, one of the absolute greats. Natben, I sense you are a little anti-AJP and pro-S6, I can see why if you haven't experienced a properly set up AJP at full health, especially as the S6 is such a refined and yet characterful engine. We love our 3.6 T350c with the six, and I hope it'll do similar mileage to the Cerb with the same ease - however, you need to fully appreciate that the AJP, when perfect, is absolutely bat-sBCA had one with nearly 100K miles on and there's neen quite a few others. Mines currently on 46K (touch wood) with the original clutch and never touched the engine other than servicing.
t-crazy. The later S6 is a great engine, but the AJP is a fking great engine! I honestly think people need both in thier lives, and to me, the Cerb is perfectly suited to the AJP - I also feel the T350 is perfectly suited to the S6. A Sagaris, for all of its outrageous looks, well, I feel it'd also suit an AJP.
That said, I cannot get on with the Sagaris rear end/ bonnet arrangement. What I will say however, is that I have been in a 4.2litre str8six built T350R - it was pretty much half way between the two in feel. I actually think the six sounds better 90% of the time, and for road manners, it spanks the Cerb - but the moment when you get a clear, third gear run - where the Cerb would take off violently, the T350 builds its accelleration in a linear way up to the rev limit. This makes the T350 easier to drive hard, but the Cerb is the more instantly satisfying for pure thrills. As I said, both great, but the AJP is greater to my mind. I wouldnt swap the six currently, but I'll be back in an AJP Cerb, definitely.
Noisy said:
Its a lot of work considering my standard build 4.0S speed 6 made 380bhp though.
What is the exhaust set up on the Tuscan?/ Isn't this the same Tuscan that weighed something silly-light? I know I've asked you before, but are you sure no-one 'special' to the factory owned it before?? 
I guess another real question to be asked, is how restrictive the Sagaris exhaust system is? It is the only way it differs from the Tuscan that I can think of engine wise??
BCA said:
but the moment when you get a clear, third gear run - where the Cerb would take off violently, the T350 builds its accelleration in a linear way up to the rev limit. This makes the T350 easier to drive hard, but the Cerb is the more instantly satisfying for pure thrills.
I would suggest that 2nd gear would have a similar effect in the T350.s5tvr said:
I would suggest that 2nd gear would have a similar effect in the T350.
I would suggest you havent driven an AJP at the thick end of 3rd gear and that in a T350 you would have to also be in third... 
Trust me, the *delivery* alone is very, very different. We'll find out how the absolute straight line pace compares at the Brighton Speed Trials shortly, initial data from other events indicates the Cerb has a slight advantage, but only at greater speed. This makes sense, as the T350 is 100kilos lighter, but the AJP always feels much faster/ more violent though, due to that delivery/ torque.
Both epic, in different ways and I dare say, both very similar in pace.
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