MP4-12C photos and review/comparison

[15HN]

Lambo FirstBlood said:

The main dealer is struggling to sell my car. It appears that there is very little appetite out there. I suspect that the fact the car has problems and this is well documented means the days of jumping the que for a premium are over for the MP4-12C. It looks like I may be left to try and sell it myself or get in to a row and demand my money back.

I'm not a happy bunny.

I'd be inclined to hand it back as I expect an offer below list is pending.

[dsl2]

What a shocking shower of do-dah this is turning out to be, such a shame as you only get one chance to make a first impression......

If your patience has worn too thin Lambo I would be inclined to reject the car ASAP & get your money back.

[Streetrod]

Beefmeister said:

Streetrod said:

Therefore any engineer worth his salt would tell you that teething problems are guaranteed.

I strongly disagree. Any good engineer will tell you that they haven't tested properly, it's that simple.

I would be embarrassed to be the head of the engineering dept at McL right now, honestly. I've worked in automotive engineering for many years and this is the biggest shambles ever.

So some of you have said that they had to get the cars out as people were waiting for them and they didn't want to disappoint them.

Well, how did that work out for you McLaren? Instead of your customers having to wait another 6 months for their cars, and then have a perfect working car which they would cherish and keep for many years you now have people handing cars back, production 'halted' and McLaren left with a very poor image for quality.

But hey, Ron sent out a letter. Whoop.

I'm not even an owner and this whole situation annoys the crap out of me.

You are assuming that a test program will always cover all the potential issues but invariable this will not be the case. Situations that occur with production parts may just not have been accounted for in beta testing. It’s almost chaos theory in action here. You can point to a number of similar situations in the aircraft and space industries. The recent Dreamliner cock up being a classic example

Yes I think they released the car early and have been let down by their suppliers but they were always going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There biggest mistake was announcing the car too soon, this set up an expectation on delivery times and compromised the time available for testing. If they had delayed the launch no doubt people would be saying the car has problems in development and potential sales could have been lost. Launching early unfortunately has had the same effect.

So the mistake was made a couple of years ago and has now dominoed to where we are today.

Other manufactures with vastly more exp have done the same over the years. What we are seeing here is nothing new

[concours g60]

lambo first blood have you any problems stopping you driving the car or just fault codes on the dash?

[SonnyM]

Streetrod said:

Beefmeister said:

Streetrod said:

Therefore any engineer worth his salt would tell you that teething problems are guaranteed.

I strongly disagree. Any good engineer will tell you that they haven't tested properly, it's that simple.

I would be embarrassed to be the head of the engineering dept at McL right now, honestly. I've worked in automotive engineering for many years and this is the biggest shambles ever.

So some of you have said that they had to get the cars out as people were waiting for them and they didn't want to disappoint them.

Well, how did that work out for you McLaren? Instead of your customers having to wait another 6 months for their cars, and then have a perfect working car which they would cherish and keep for many years you now have people handing cars back, production 'halted' and McLaren left with a very poor image for quality.

But hey, Ron sent out a letter. Whoop.

I'm not even an owner and this whole situation annoys the crap out of me.

You are assuming that a test program will always cover all the potential issues but invariable this will not be the case. Situations that occur with production parts may just not have been accounted for in beta testing. It’s almost chaos theory in action here. You can point to a number of similar situations in the aircraft and space industries. The recent Dreamliner cock up being a classic example

Yes I think they released the car early and have been let down by their suppliers but they were always going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There biggest mistake was announcing the car too soon, this set up an expectation on delivery times and compromised the time available for testing. If they had delayed the launch no doubt people would be saying the car has problems in development and potential sales could have been lost. Launching early unfortunately has had the same effect.

So the mistake was made a couple of years ago and has now dominoed to where we are today.

Other manufactures with vastly more exp have done the same over the years. What we are seeing here is nothing new

The principles of good engineering are the same across all industries be it software or hardware.

Would a reputable engineering firm get away with building a bridge that failed which caused humans to die? Would Ferrari have got away with the "bursting into flames / glue" issue if they hadn't addressed it promptly and it caused accidents / death?

McLaren is NOT new to engineering - do you know how much testing goes into F1 software and hardware? There is no reason why the same PRINCIPLES could not be applied to anything they engineer.

There is a cost associated with releasing a poorly engineered product.

[TP321]

Lambo FirstBlood said:

The main dealer is struggling to sell my car. It appears that there is very little appetite out there. I suspect that the fact the car has problems and this is well documented means the days of jumping the que for a premium are over for the MP4-12C. It looks like I may be left to try and sell it myself or get in to a row and demand my money back.

I'm not a happy bunny.

I am very surprised at this - there was a black car in the classifieds which sold very quickly for £200k. Maybe your colour and spec to blame?

[anonymous-user]

TP321 said:

I am very surprised at this - there was a black car in the classifieds which sold very quickly for £200k. Maybe your colour and spec to blame?

Maybe news is getting around that they're not quite 'there' yet?

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

TP321 said:

I am very surprised at this - there was a black car in the classifieds which sold very quickly for £200k. Maybe your colour and spec to blame?

You know that or just assume that as it was up for £200k and has now sold that's the case?

[clorenzen]

I think it is tricky to buy a car second hand knowing that you are relying on dealer and manufacturer goodwill to get it right. At least as a first owner you can slam the door a bit harder. This might be the real reason that these are not shifting. LFB - in your case i would hand it back to McL and get your cash back and have them take the risk of loosing money on the car. At the end of the day they have not delivered on their side of the agreement. Life is too short to be aggravated by these things so its all about shortening the pain and move on.

[Podie]

ThatPhilBrettGuy said:

Outsourcing is a necessity at this price level. The more complex the car, the more that becomes a risk. McLaren are new to the mass produced lark. Looks like they're learning the hard way. After being in the electronics game for years I know what a difficult jump that is.

Cost and price are very different...

[traxx]

What about the bit in the contract which says you won't sell the car for 6 months?
Is there not a risk that Mclaren won't help the new owner
Or have they dropped that clause from the contract?

[Trommel]

Surely that can only be a dealer condition.

[Lambo FirstBlood]

TP321 said:

I am very surprised at this - there was a black car in the classifieds which sold very quickly for £200k. Maybe your colour and spec to blame?

Mine is a higher spec car than that one. It's in Fire Black, has all the options anyone would want. It may not be everyone's perfect spec but it is very innoffensive and I doubt that's what's causing the problem.

[Streetrod]

SonnyM said:

Streetrod said:

Beefmeister said:

Streetrod said:

Therefore any engineer worth his salt would tell you that teething problems are guaranteed.

I strongly disagree. Any good engineer will tell you that they haven't tested properly, it's that simple.

I would be embarrassed to be the head of the engineering dept at McL right now, honestly. I've worked in automotive engineering for many years and this is the biggest shambles ever.

So some of you have said that they had to get the cars out as people were waiting for them and they didn't want to disappoint them.

Well, how did that work out for you McLaren? Instead of your customers having to wait another 6 months for their cars, and then have a perfect working car which they would cherish and keep for many years you now have people handing cars back, production 'halted' and McLaren left with a very poor image for quality.

But hey, Ron sent out a letter. Whoop.

I'm not even an owner and this whole situation annoys the crap out of me.

You are assuming that a test program will always cover all the potential issues but invariable this will not be the case. Situations that occur with production parts may just not have been accounted for in beta testing. It’s almost chaos theory in action here. You can point to a number of similar situations in the aircraft and space industries. The recent Dreamliner cock up being a classic example

Yes I think they released the car early and have been let down by their suppliers but they were always going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

There biggest mistake was announcing the car too soon, this set up an expectation on delivery times and compromised the time available for testing. If they had delayed the launch no doubt people would be saying the car has problems in development and potential sales could have been lost. Launching early unfortunately has had the same effect.

So the mistake was made a couple of years ago and has now dominoed to where we are today.

Other manufactures with vastly more exp have done the same over the years. What we are seeing here is nothing new

The principles of good engineering are the same across all industries be it software or hardware.

Would a reputable engineering firm get away with building a bridge that failed which caused humans to die? Would Ferrari have got away with the "bursting into flames / glue" issue if they hadn't addressed it promptly and it caused accidents / death?

McLaren is NOT new to engineering - do you know how much testing goes into F1 software and hardware? There is no reason why the same PRINCIPLES could not be applied to anything they engineer.

There is a cost associated with releasing a poorly engineered product.

I absolutely agree with everything you say, I work in the oil & gas industry where a tiny engineering mistake can result in multiple deaths. What I am saying is that it is almost impossible to get it right first time.

F1 is constantly being developed over a season; the cars at the end of the season are mere shadows of the cars that start it.

All I am saying is that it is unreasonable to expect a perfect product right off the bat; this in no way excuses McLaren for what appears to be a catalogue of issues

[TP321]

Lambo FirstBlood said:

Mine is a higher spec car than that one. It's in Fire Black, has all the options anyone would want. It may not be everyone's perfect spec but it is very innoffensive and I doubt that's what's causing the problem.

Are you asking for a premium or just your money back?

Ok Fire black isn't everyone's cup of tea, but unless you are asking for silly money (Tom Hartley and the other grey/black one) I cant see the problem.

[dtriggs]

This thread is very interesting reading. I was inline to get one and pulled out at the last minute when I realised I was fooling myself it was going to be unique.

Anyway, my point is that too many people have compared this with the original F1. That was built with no compromises and the 12C is very different. The 12C is without doubt a great car but why are so many people trying to suggest that the major faults it has should be accepted and generic letter from Ron makes it ok ?? If a car of whatever value has these problems it should have the same reaction.

Ariel have sent me a few truly personal letters and every year I get a Christmas card hand signed....hasn't stopped them giving me amazing after sales service and quick rectification of any problems.

Hopefully Macca will sort this out and push ahead successfully.

[Frik]

An MP4 at a knock down price has to be the canny purchase at the moment surely?

[nonuts]

Frik said:

An MP4 at a knock down price has to be the canny purchase at the moment surely?

I was thinking the same, however if you actually want to drive it maybe not.

[ufoufo]

I think the trick with the 12C is not to overspec it. At £175k new it would take some beating - the small faults will soon be rectified

[footsoldier]

My understanding is that the first owners were told that there would be no IRIS, and that there would be a few issues which would require recalls to fix along the way. They were given the choice to take delivery or not.

Following that, there have been a few issues, but these are not generic. The large majority of owners are happy, and got what they were expecting when they decided to proceed with delivery.

I have a car on order, but chose not to take delivery until IRIS is working properly. There's been no pressure to do otherwise, and I have been put in touch with a number of owners to verify they are very happy with MacLaren's service, and went into it with open eyes, and now have no regrets.

MacLaren are pre-empively fixing issues, which have occured in one or two cars, on all cars delived so far.

There are very few owners who have had issues which actually prevent driving the car, and as I said, I'm told they were warned in advance.

Clearly not ideal, but not the mis-selling etc that some are alluding to. I have never had a new car that didn't need recall work. The one thing I do agree with is that MCL were too cocky and over-promised, but I've no doubt that they will fix it in the next few weeks/months and it will eventually be the best resolved supercar out there.

Given the Chinese whispers about quality though, I won't be suprised if they have to launch an upgraded version in a few months so that journos can all report that the MCL is finally and definitively the one to beat. If that happens, I'm sure existing owners will be looked after.