Suggestions for a first supercar
Discussion
av185 said:
It is not so much what percentage of your net worth is sitting in a car but of much more significance is how much the car depreciated.
Yes the dreaded D word often shunned by PHers but entirely relevant to decisions like this imo.
Never ceases to amaze me what huge amounts people lose out of taxed income on relatively humdrum cars around £30k.....never mind supercars.
Friend of mine lost £50k on a new 5 series McLaren in 5 months and not many miles. He is far from stupid and not immensely wealthy but you really have to be quite rich and or quite stupid to flush away that amount in such a short time and little use even on a car, in his case, you really would die for.
The joys of running an expensive car soon turns sour imo for most even wealthy people if that car is costing an arm and leg to them in depreciation.
This scenario does perhaps point to the sense in buying older cars which have flatlined depreciation wise...430, Gallardo whatever, but it is still possible to run some tasty newish stuff at relatively little money by buying and selling at the right time (i.e. seasonally) and hopefully by accurately predicting the market.
The most sensible and downright truthful post i've read in along time.My fun cars are used sparingly due to time constraints and family commitments and should they depreciate to a signficant degree it only sullies the experience IMO.Yes the dreaded D word often shunned by PHers but entirely relevant to decisions like this imo.
Never ceases to amaze me what huge amounts people lose out of taxed income on relatively humdrum cars around £30k.....never mind supercars.
Friend of mine lost £50k on a new 5 series McLaren in 5 months and not many miles. He is far from stupid and not immensely wealthy but you really have to be quite rich and or quite stupid to flush away that amount in such a short time and little use even on a car, in his case, you really would die for.
The joys of running an expensive car soon turns sour imo for most even wealthy people if that car is costing an arm and leg to them in depreciation.
This scenario does perhaps point to the sense in buying older cars which have flatlined depreciation wise...430, Gallardo whatever, but it is still possible to run some tasty newish stuff at relatively little money by buying and selling at the right time (i.e. seasonally) and hopefully by accurately predicting the market.
Edited by Taffy66 on Wednesday 29th August 20:33
Edited by Taffy66 on Wednesday 29th August 20:35
av185 said:
It is not so much what percentage of your net worth is sitting in a car but of much more significance is how much the car depreciated.
Yes the dreaded D word often shunned by PHers but entirely relevant to decisions like this imo.
Never ceases to amaze me what huge amounts people lose out of taxed income on relatively humdrum cars around £30k.....never mind supercars.
Friend of mine lost £50k on a new 5 series McLaren in 5 months and not many miles. He is far from stupid and not immensely wealthy but you really have to be quite rich and or quite stupid to flush away that amount in such a short time and little use even on a car, in his case, you really would die for.
The joys of running an expensive car soon turns sour imo for most even wealthy people if that car is costing an arm and leg to them in depreciation.
This scenario does perhaps point to the sense in buying older cars which have flatlined depreciation wise...430, Gallardo whatever, but it is still possible to run some tasty newish stuff at relatively little money by buying and selling at the right time (i.e. seasonally) and hopefully by accurately predicting the market.
Good point the real cost of ownership is of course the depreciation which if you buy brand new is usually biblical ! The R8 I had dropped £50k in the first two yrs but only £10k for the two yrs I owned it not too bad ( that was the full spread dealer sold it for £4.5k more than my part ex value), I’m curious to see how my Vantage will stack up after 2 yrs...50k in 5 months on a new McLaren is mental sweet spot on a lot of these cars is defo 2-3 yrs old nice chunk of deprec gone already Yes the dreaded D word often shunned by PHers but entirely relevant to decisions like this imo.
Never ceases to amaze me what huge amounts people lose out of taxed income on relatively humdrum cars around £30k.....never mind supercars.
Friend of mine lost £50k on a new 5 series McLaren in 5 months and not many miles. He is far from stupid and not immensely wealthy but you really have to be quite rich and or quite stupid to flush away that amount in such a short time and little use even on a car, in his case, you really would die for.
The joys of running an expensive car soon turns sour imo for most even wealthy people if that car is costing an arm and leg to them in depreciation.
This scenario does perhaps point to the sense in buying older cars which have flatlined depreciation wise...430, Gallardo whatever, but it is still possible to run some tasty newish stuff at relatively little money by buying and selling at the right time (i.e. seasonally) and hopefully by accurately predicting the market.
You could get a late pre-LP Gallardo (circa 2008) model towards the lower end of your budget. Running costs are low, will feel far more special than any R8 and is unlikely to depreciate in the same way as some of the other contenders. eGear is great fun once mastered (different beast to the earlier models) and the manual has a great feel to it if you're set on a stick. I would def. say at least drive an eGear also if you look at these. Nothing like the scream of a V10 behind you with a bull sitting in the middle of the steering wheel.
RSbandit said:
Good point the real cost of ownership is of course the depreciation which if you buy brand new is usually biblical ! The R8 I had dropped £50k in the first two yrs but only £10k for the two yrs I owned it not too bad ( that was the full spread dealer sold it for £4.5k more than my part ex value), I’m curious to see how my Vantage will stack up after 2 yrs...50k in 5 months on a new McLaren is mental sweet spot on a lot of these cars is defo 2-3 yrs old nice chunk of deprec gone already
Yes to all the above and may i include the stunning DB11 in that list..Plenty of Main dealer 2017 DB11's up for circa £120K+ which translates to about £50K off list..I'm currently looking for my first non-Porsche supercar with minimal depreciation..I'm drawn strongly towards the Ferrari 430 Scuderia at about £190K..I am also considering a 488 at similar money..
Which do you think will cost less to own over a couple of years in terms of residuals.?
av185 said:
Hi Taffy I would expect 488s to soften further until parity with late 458.
Perhaps last of na 458 would be a better buy?
Sorry; i forgot to mention i'm also considering a 458 Italia at less than £150K...I think the 458s have bottomed out at that level and can only go one way IMO.Perhaps last of na 458 would be a better buy?
Hi op. If you wanted to lessen the amount of money you have tied up in cars, and to try a few cars to see what you like best; you could join a super car club for a year. Then you could try a number of cars to see what you fancy. You might even keep being a club member instead of buying perhaps.
Taffy66 said:
av185 said:
Hi Taffy I would expect 488s to soften further until parity with late 458.
Perhaps last of na 458 would be a better buy?
Sorry; i forgot to mention i'm also considering a 458 Italia at less than £150K...I think the 458s have bottomed out at that level and can only go one way IMO.Perhaps last of na 458 would be a better buy?
Between the Scud and the 458, i’d Say it depends on your use - 430 imo a better weekend car, 458 better daily/more comfortable (never owned a 458, but did about 15k km in the Scud this summer)
Completely agree regarding depreciation. I will pay cash for whatever car I decide on and simply can’t afford for it to depreciate by £20k+ per year. I’d look to keep the car for approx 5 years and could probably justify a £30k hit in depreciation during that time frame.
Chainsaw - good shout regarding the supercar club. Any recommendations of which ones are any good? I’ve looked into them in the past (before I got the 911) but they all seemed a bit expensive. Might be worth it to try for a year before buying though.
Chainsaw - good shout regarding the supercar club. Any recommendations of which ones are any good? I’ve looked into them in the past (before I got the 911) but they all seemed a bit expensive. Might be worth it to try for a year before buying though.
You are always going to lose the dealer margin so assuming zero depreciation or appreciation (probably better to assume some depreciation) you will lose some money as well as what you spend on maintenance.
I kept my F430 Spider for 5 years and sold it for a notional profit ignoring costs. I bought my 458 a bit over two years ago and its probably worth the same as I paid for it in theory. Is there a general lesson here? No not really, a lot depends on timing - everything was a big bag of distress when I bought my F430 so realistically my then 2 yr old 8k miles pristine F430 Spider had suffered a ton of depreciation. Likewise if more distress comes, you will get a lot of depreciation for certain all standard models, even the last of the n/a V8's 458. It makes more sense to buy one of the specials if you want to hedge against depreciation but Scuds have been cheaper in the past and may be again. Also, as someone mentioned, the specials are very sensitive to mileage.
Conclusion from me? Don't buy a 488. It's faster but not as good as a 458 except on track in my opinion. And you will certainly lose a chunk. Buy a 458 and enjoy it and hope for the best. If depreciation is everything to you, don't buy cars at the top of the longest bull market in history after the world's balance sheet has been pumped up to treble the size with steroids. Mind you, no-one knows when it will all stop and you may see the £275k Scud but cars are not financial products. Buy a cheaper car, drive the socks off it and buy some [gold or insert here your favourite asset class] as a hedge against the ZA.
I kept my F430 Spider for 5 years and sold it for a notional profit ignoring costs. I bought my 458 a bit over two years ago and its probably worth the same as I paid for it in theory. Is there a general lesson here? No not really, a lot depends on timing - everything was a big bag of distress when I bought my F430 so realistically my then 2 yr old 8k miles pristine F430 Spider had suffered a ton of depreciation. Likewise if more distress comes, you will get a lot of depreciation for certain all standard models, even the last of the n/a V8's 458. It makes more sense to buy one of the specials if you want to hedge against depreciation but Scuds have been cheaper in the past and may be again. Also, as someone mentioned, the specials are very sensitive to mileage.
Conclusion from me? Don't buy a 488. It's faster but not as good as a 458 except on track in my opinion. And you will certainly lose a chunk. Buy a 458 and enjoy it and hope for the best. If depreciation is everything to you, don't buy cars at the top of the longest bull market in history after the world's balance sheet has been pumped up to treble the size with steroids. Mind you, no-one knows when it will all stop and you may see the £275k Scud but cars are not financial products. Buy a cheaper car, drive the socks off it and buy some [gold or insert here your favourite asset class] as a hedge against the ZA.
WCZ said:
they're too mileage sensitive imo, I think the good buy here would be a cheap 458
Whilst they are mileage sensitive they’re also getting rarer so another 5k miles won’t make a huge difference whereas 10k might! Whilst a cheap 458 wouldn’t be too mileage sensitive it will depreciate more whereas the scud won’t, and doing 5k miles in a scud won’t make it devalue 10-20k if anything (depending on mileage when bought)There are clearly some fresh faced chaps on here who have only experienced a zero interest rate market and have concluded from ten years worth of data that they are safe sticking their money in supercars.
They probably believed Gordon Brown’s “no more boom and bust” rally cry too.
Supercars are commodities. They produce no yield (other than smiles!) and are expensive to carry - maintenance, insurance, cost of capital (close to zero obviously at the moment but now trending up) and storage. They have and always will behave like commodities, which means volatile bull and bear cycles.
Abundance of low finance costs has extended the current bull run and no one truthfully knows when it will end. But it’s also true that it’s usually the guys who think there is a known bottom who define the eventual bottom when they are forced to sell!
Don’t buy at a level where you will be forced to sell on a downturn. Bear markets in supercars are vicious and take no prisoners. There will be another one.
If you would be forced to sell at any given price point don’t buy a supercar.
They probably believed Gordon Brown’s “no more boom and bust” rally cry too.
Supercars are commodities. They produce no yield (other than smiles!) and are expensive to carry - maintenance, insurance, cost of capital (close to zero obviously at the moment but now trending up) and storage. They have and always will behave like commodities, which means volatile bull and bear cycles.
Abundance of low finance costs has extended the current bull run and no one truthfully knows when it will end. But it’s also true that it’s usually the guys who think there is a known bottom who define the eventual bottom when they are forced to sell!
Don’t buy at a level where you will be forced to sell on a downturn. Bear markets in supercars are vicious and take no prisoners. There will be another one.
If you would be forced to sell at any given price point don’t buy a supercar.
Here’s an alternative notion....buy a car, drive it till you’re bored with it and reconcile any loss you make with all the joy you had using it for its intended purpose in your head. If you can’t do that, pop your cash into NS&I at 1% or other similar investment vehicle that offers a guaranteed return and does not have an engine and four wheels.
If cars are “mileage sensitive” then imo they are pointless to buy, since by definition you are supposed to drive a car not look at it.
If cars are “mileage sensitive” then imo they are pointless to buy, since by definition you are supposed to drive a car not look at it.
WDISMYL said:
There are clearly some fresh faced chaps on here who have only experienced a zero interest rate market and have concluded from ten years worth of data that they are safe sticking their money in supercars.
They probably believed Gordon Brown’s “no more boom and bust” rally cry too.
Supercars are commodities. They produce no yield (other than smiles!) and are expensive to carry - maintenance, insurance, cost of capital (close to zero obviously at the moment but now trending up) and storage. They have and always will behave like commodities, which means volatile bull and bear cycles.
Abundance of low finance costs has extended the current bull run and no one truthfully knows when it will end. But it’s also true that it’s usually the guys who think there is a known bottom who define the eventual bottom when they are forced to sell!
Don’t buy at a level where you will be forced to sell on a downturn. Bear markets in supercars are vicious and take no prisoners. There will be another one.
If you would be forced to sell at any given price point don’t buy a supercar.
Agree on people seeming to have forgotten the 10 years before the last 10. Didn’t somebody post on here about 10 years ago about being offered a 288 GTO at mid-200s sterling (and an F40 a few years earlier as a straight up trade for a 430 Spider is another one I remember) - that is close to a 10th of today’s value for either one probably . maybe not likely to hit that level again, but probably not impossible. It is not like we are talking 40 years ago. So then a 458 and the likes will probably be a 50k car, just as it’s predecessors were at some point or other in time.They probably believed Gordon Brown’s “no more boom and bust” rally cry too.
Supercars are commodities. They produce no yield (other than smiles!) and are expensive to carry - maintenance, insurance, cost of capital (close to zero obviously at the moment but now trending up) and storage. They have and always will behave like commodities, which means volatile bull and bear cycles.
Abundance of low finance costs has extended the current bull run and no one truthfully knows when it will end. But it’s also true that it’s usually the guys who think there is a known bottom who define the eventual bottom when they are forced to sell!
Don’t buy at a level where you will be forced to sell on a downturn. Bear markets in supercars are vicious and take no prisoners. There will be another one.
If you would be forced to sell at any given price point don’t buy a supercar.
Regardless, don’t get why people always think about depreciation and selling a car - buy a car to keep and you never have to worry about it
Seems like depreciation is slowly replacing investment value as PH’s favorite topic - maybe the end is near ....
My thoughts for what they are worth!
Firstly the cars. I’ve never bought a brand new supercar, partly as the original outlay is so high, partly the depreciation hit, partly I prefer a few toys to chose from, partly now frankly the speed of them is way above my talent and the cars I have are way better than me already! As others have said you need to try them and work out what you want in the car.
I’m incredibly fortunate to have 4 supercars approx 15 years old. The early manual Murci was the first, I’ve had that 6 years and done approx 13k miles. It’s cost £1-2k a year for service, one big bill with brakes etc (£5k), £1k for tyres. Not bad, again maybe I’ve been v lucky! It’s big for UK roads , but hey people drive transits so don’t worry too much about that, best thing I did was in the first year drive to Italy, leave it outside overnight in the street, drive it round little old villages and that took the fear away. It’s fast, brash, noisey, always gets positive reaction. Old school (ish) but the more you hustle it the better it is.
Then me and a mate bought a 996 GT3RS. Special! I actually like the interior of the 996, simple, functional and clean. Better for thrashing round A and B back rounds, awesome feel to steering/suspension, feels alive. Porsche costs, reliability and quality.
Then a Ferrari Challenge Stradale- LHD, brought in from Italy, good mileage for one of these so I don’t mind using it. Probably of these 4, the last to go. Been to France 3 times, not sure exact mileage I’ve added but reasonable! Drives like a big lotus, (and I’ve had 5 Lotus so that’s a real compliment), gearbox a little slow (especially compared to something modern like the Giulia), but it’s part of its charm, super on track, has most of the theatrical presence of the lambo, is a v special place to sit, comfortable for long drives, unbelievable noise (the best!) and I particularly love the noise of the gravel clattering round the wheel arches and against the under tray! A little more temperamental with things like warning lights etc but about the same as the Murci to run.
Finally 996Turbo Cab. The one I’ve connected to the least, usable, fast, comfortable, perfect everyday, slips into the work car park unnoticed compared with the others, but just hasn’t quite got the emotion / draw / special feeling to it.
Similar to you, Ive worked hard and have been lucky too- working my way up a big Corp having left uni 25 years ago. I earn a good wage but have also spent a high % on cars! I’ve remortgaged the house in the past, taken various 0% credit card deals and cheap bank loans- this is very calculated risk though. I have an understanding wife, so we have a lovely little cottage, which is worth about the same as the cars and about the same footprint as the garaging(!), and as long as we have good holidays she is happy! We are in a interesting period now, so I’d take your time, find exactly what you fancy, work out what you’ll use it for, and then go in for the long run of experiences and memories. Cars cost me a fortune for the first 20 years and have balanced ok recently but I’ve only ever bought things I wanted, wanted to use and enjoy, clever purchasing helps take away the big hits referered to previously, sounds like you are not expecting free motoring, so go in on that basis and I hope it works out for you.
(ps: the McLarens are lovely machines in my mind and fantastic to drive. Got friends with 12c’s and 720S. All love them to bits from a driving point of view. Maybe a bit sterile but I would look at them- from what I’ve heard though I would get a warranty...)
Firstly the cars. I’ve never bought a brand new supercar, partly as the original outlay is so high, partly the depreciation hit, partly I prefer a few toys to chose from, partly now frankly the speed of them is way above my talent and the cars I have are way better than me already! As others have said you need to try them and work out what you want in the car.
I’m incredibly fortunate to have 4 supercars approx 15 years old. The early manual Murci was the first, I’ve had that 6 years and done approx 13k miles. It’s cost £1-2k a year for service, one big bill with brakes etc (£5k), £1k for tyres. Not bad, again maybe I’ve been v lucky! It’s big for UK roads , but hey people drive transits so don’t worry too much about that, best thing I did was in the first year drive to Italy, leave it outside overnight in the street, drive it round little old villages and that took the fear away. It’s fast, brash, noisey, always gets positive reaction. Old school (ish) but the more you hustle it the better it is.
Then me and a mate bought a 996 GT3RS. Special! I actually like the interior of the 996, simple, functional and clean. Better for thrashing round A and B back rounds, awesome feel to steering/suspension, feels alive. Porsche costs, reliability and quality.
Then a Ferrari Challenge Stradale- LHD, brought in from Italy, good mileage for one of these so I don’t mind using it. Probably of these 4, the last to go. Been to France 3 times, not sure exact mileage I’ve added but reasonable! Drives like a big lotus, (and I’ve had 5 Lotus so that’s a real compliment), gearbox a little slow (especially compared to something modern like the Giulia), but it’s part of its charm, super on track, has most of the theatrical presence of the lambo, is a v special place to sit, comfortable for long drives, unbelievable noise (the best!) and I particularly love the noise of the gravel clattering round the wheel arches and against the under tray! A little more temperamental with things like warning lights etc but about the same as the Murci to run.
Finally 996Turbo Cab. The one I’ve connected to the least, usable, fast, comfortable, perfect everyday, slips into the work car park unnoticed compared with the others, but just hasn’t quite got the emotion / draw / special feeling to it.
Similar to you, Ive worked hard and have been lucky too- working my way up a big Corp having left uni 25 years ago. I earn a good wage but have also spent a high % on cars! I’ve remortgaged the house in the past, taken various 0% credit card deals and cheap bank loans- this is very calculated risk though. I have an understanding wife, so we have a lovely little cottage, which is worth about the same as the cars and about the same footprint as the garaging(!), and as long as we have good holidays she is happy! We are in a interesting period now, so I’d take your time, find exactly what you fancy, work out what you’ll use it for, and then go in for the long run of experiences and memories. Cars cost me a fortune for the first 20 years and have balanced ok recently but I’ve only ever bought things I wanted, wanted to use and enjoy, clever purchasing helps take away the big hits referered to previously, sounds like you are not expecting free motoring, so go in on that basis and I hope it works out for you.
(ps: the McLarens are lovely machines in my mind and fantastic to drive. Got friends with 12c’s and 720S. All love them to bits from a driving point of view. Maybe a bit sterile but I would look at them- from what I’ve heard though I would get a warranty...)
RSbandit said:
Interesting the OP mentioned he’s not a millionaire but is gonna drop 6 figures on a car, made me think what is a reasonable % of ur net worth to have tied up in cars assuming you’re a petrolhead?
As for the decision I had a V10 plus R8 gen 1 which was a mighty thing the badge might not be exotic but that engine certainly is , changed into a V12VS a few months ago more special than the R8 inside and the engine and exterior on a level playing field with the V10 R8, 90-100 k gets you into the new R8 now too which is a lot of car for the cash. Drive whatever ones you fancy anyway huge amount of choice at that price point .
I don't personally dwell on "car as percentage of net worth" tbh.As for the decision I had a V10 plus R8 gen 1 which was a mighty thing the badge might not be exotic but that engine certainly is , changed into a V12VS a few months ago more special than the R8 inside and the engine and exterior on a level playing field with the V10 R8, 90-100 k gets you into the new R8 now too which is a lot of car for the cash. Drive whatever ones you fancy anyway huge amount of choice at that price point .
The acid test for me with things like this, and generally, is quite simply - will other aspects of my life suffer from owning this (i.e. will I be able to afford to do the other things I currently enjoy), will I be able to enjoy it properly (i.e. will the anticipated running costs or depreciation weigh heavily on my mind to the point where it gives me any pause for thought about turning the key and driving it), etc.
Beyond that I fall back to the logic of "money comes and goes, time only goes".
That said - I didn't have this attitude prior to my father passing away. I had spent most of my adult life saving, eschewing holidays, etc. It's fair to say that I've squandered a few years where I could've had experiences that were rewarding spiritually, but also expensive.
That is not to say that the spectre of depreciation and running costs doesn't factor into my thought process, but it doesn't stop me anymore. I bought a 458 a couple of years ago making peace with the idea that I would lose ~£20k in depreciation / dealer flip, and I actually broke even on it and would actually have made a profit had I not had to buy 4 shocks for it. Buying the right car (if used) is critical, as has been said above.
The only thing I would say, with any purchase of anything really, is that the absolute worst thing you can do is buy it and not be able to enjoy it properly. If you stretch yourself so much that it becomes a burden, or you can't afford a warranty and live in fear of anything going wrong on it, or how each mile might reduce the value of it, so much so that you feel on edge owning it - then it is absolutely the worst thing you can do. Don't let a dream car be an anchor around your neck.
Edited by Durzel on Friday 31st August 10:49
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