Where are all the 360 CS's?
Discussion
Schnellmann said:
richardmeaks said:
Perhaps if you'd read my comments before being insulting, you would have seen that I was responding to the comments by "jackal" about steering not your own.
My statement was not meant as an insult, it was just my assessment of your posts. Quoting Clarkson and dismissing statements from other, when you have no posting history nor a profile to back up your claims is unlikely to win you credibility or friends on here.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I own a 2004 360CS & 2004 GT3, they are both great cars, both are great to drive both are very different to drive, the main thing they share is they are lighter versions of a stock car.
Out of the box the CS would do many more track miles than the GT3 as the standard LSD on the GT3 is not upto the job, my car also has standard steel brakes that are not nearly as good as the CS ceramic jobs.
Out of the box the CS would do many more track miles than the GT3 as the standard LSD on the GT3 is not upto the job, my car also has standard steel brakes that are not nearly as good as the CS ceramic jobs.
jackal said:
There have been plenty of CS's sold over the past 3 years for sensible money more in line with the LHD market. It's only a car, after all.
Other thread on 65k budget:jackal said:
You might be surprised. Quite a few {CS} have sold very close to that in the last 3 years.
Perhaps you've had your head in sand, your fingers in your ears or just can’t accept it, but the CS market has considerably moved on this year. It has appeared on a lot of people's radars including some very serious collectors. As many have commented, RHD CS demand completely out strips supply and it looks like perfect LHD examples are also heading that way. Your friend’s car that you keep mentioning was before this curve and was a difficult spec to sell, with a forced hand or a strong desire to move on it sold below the then market value which is a shame.
Whether you’re aware or not the quotes above and the myriad of posts on this thread do make you sound desperate to de-value what is a fantastic car. Not sure on your reasons behind that - missed the boat etc, but either way it's not putting you a particularly good light. Perhaps move on?
The CS is a celebration to the Formula 1 successes of the time and as many people/big collectors have stated, it takes going back to the F40 to find such rawness. In my opinion the CS is two thirds an F40, whether that reflects in the values or not doesn't really matter, it is okay to buy a car to just enjoy it.
It seems the market has made it's own decision on the CS.
Enjoy
Chiefly said:
stuff
Its just my opinion, I'm happy with it, got more than enough evidence to back it up and won't be changing it. It's based on all sorts of cars in the last 16 months as well and not just the Foskers example (Mcgurk x2, Cortese, Zero one, Deeside etc..) and there has been no higher miles examples this year outside of official F dealers so absolutely no evidence to support your contention that examples in the 60's, 70's and 80's are dead and buried for good.I don't have any agenda by the way. If I want a cheap CS i'll get one. If I want a 130k example then i'll buy one of those too. The 458, scud or 430 would probably come first though as I think they are all better cars.
You've not posted on here for over a year and posted around 3 times in 3 years and in all cases just to come to the defence of the ferrari 360. On top of all that your profile is threadbare in the extreme. With respect that's not showing you in a good light ... who are you trying to convince ?
Edited by jackal on Wednesday 26th June 00:56
Speed.deman said:
LukeyLikey said:
I have had a non standard geometry put on the car by the dealer and it has made a big difference in a positive way, but that's the only change to standard.
Could you please elaborate on what this is and who did it for you? Is it for road or track?There were two guys on other forums (F430GT and 360TREV) who bothered to post a whole load of information on the set ups of the various 360 and 430 variants and explain them.
To summarise what I gathered I'll take the front axle first (I only changed camber and toe, everything else standard).
Front camber gives additional front end grip and 'transforms the handling' so I increased that. Front toe-in is set at about 1.5mm each side from the factory. This points the wheels towards each other which gives greater straight line stability but resists turn-in. It also increases tyre wear. For tracks you would have zero toe-in or even toe-out. I reduced it significantly but not as far as zero.
Obviously increasing the grip and turn-in on the front axle has an effect on the rear, which must be countered unless you want a very lively back end, which I don't. I put the camber at the same setting as the front (which from memory is similar or the same as stock) and increased the rear toe.
Rear toe, according to these guys, was the key change between 360 and 430 geometry. It is a very sensitive adjustment and the factory took it from 1.5mm per side to 2.0mm per side. This ties the rear end down much better (as you turn, the weighted rear wheel is already turning slightly into the corner).
From reading their detailed explanations I could understand better what was going on. It was important to understand because messing around with geometry is a fairly serious thing.
The settings I decided on were suitable for fast road/occasional track. For track you would think about toe-out on the front and even more toe-in on the rear and probably more camber.
My settings are:
Front toe-in 0.5mm per side
Rear toe-in 2.0mm per side
Front camber -2 degrees
Rear camber -2 degrees
This was done at my local Ferrari main dealer.
I drove the car to Le Mans and back. There is a little less feel around the straight ahead with the reduced front toe but turn in is very crisp and feel once in the turn is electric! The rear feels stable and grip feels high.
Overall there is MUCH more chassis feel and the suspected drawbacks of less front toe, like tramlining and mini adjustments required at high speed going straight, did not materialise.
I did however notice that the tyres needed to be warm to deliver grip and that if I push before that there is movement at the rear, all of which is perfectly telegraphed and controllable. I might benefit from another half degree of rear camber but more camber = more tyre wear.
So far, no nasties at all just big smiles in the twisty bits. Would I recommend it? Read up first and understand but if you're a decent pedaller (I'm reasonably good but no more) it could be a good thing to do.
BlueNGT said:
Nice clip....last second is classic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkDVYw6JOL4&NR=...
LOL!!neil-f said:
Jackal the McGurk's TDF car was an "issues" car and was priced accordingly!
Big time it was! and they tried to sell it to me as mint/never seen a wall...thank god some people had some evidence, and showed me the lighthttp://challenge-stradale.com/137904.html
Speed.deman said:
Turning to the cars for sale at Mr 911:
1. Has anyone seen them physically?
I've seen all 3 a couple weeks back, quite a sight all 3 together, while buying my classic range rover from him.1. Has anyone seen them physically?
Black one is my favorite and then the Rosso Scuderia (more orange) one with stripe.
Didn't try to buy any as I already have one
Good thread.
As some may know, I spent quite some time examining the market before I bought my car. My analysis of the market may be open to debate, but the facts I am aware of are the following:
There has only been 3 RHD car available in the UK during the 6 months or so. Prices (at least, in the asking) have moved on since I was looking last summer. LHD cars are coming into the UK market and you cannot buy a "good" car in Europe without spending at least EUR 90,000. Sad but true!
There are numerous cars around that are priced in the EUR 80,000 bracket or below. I examined every single one of these cars in correspondence. They have histories that would have UK buyers running a mile, e.g. replaced engines, stolen and with no history, no service in the book for years on end, etc.
The fact is that these cars are asking prices much higher than in the last couple of years. Whether they are selling is another question.
My car is perfect but I paid for that privilege.
As some may know, I spent quite some time examining the market before I bought my car. My analysis of the market may be open to debate, but the facts I am aware of are the following:
There has only been 3 RHD car available in the UK during the 6 months or so. Prices (at least, in the asking) have moved on since I was looking last summer. LHD cars are coming into the UK market and you cannot buy a "good" car in Europe without spending at least EUR 90,000. Sad but true!
There are numerous cars around that are priced in the EUR 80,000 bracket or below. I examined every single one of these cars in correspondence. They have histories that would have UK buyers running a mile, e.g. replaced engines, stolen and with no history, no service in the book for years on end, etc.
The fact is that these cars are asking prices much higher than in the last couple of years. Whether they are selling is another question.
My car is perfect but I paid for that privilege.
AdvocatusD said:
Good thread.
As some may know, I spent quite some time examining the market before I bought my car. My analysis of the market may be open to debate, but the facts I am aware of are the following:
There has only been 3 RHD car available in the UK during the 6 months or so. Prices (at least, in the asking) have moved on since I was looking last summer. LHD cars are coming into the UK market and you cannot buy a "good" car in Europe without spending at least EUR 90,000. Sad but true!
There are numerous cars around that are priced in the EUR 80,000 bracket or below. I examined every single one of these cars in correspondence. They have histories that would have UK buyers running a mile, e.g. replaced engines, stolen and with no history, no service in the book for years on end, etc.
The fact is that these cars are asking prices much higher than in the last couple of years. Whether they are selling is another question.
My car is perfect but I paid for that privilege.
Are you aware of this car, AdvocatusD? http://www.chicagomotorcars.com/web/used/Ferrari-3...As some may know, I spent quite some time examining the market before I bought my car. My analysis of the market may be open to debate, but the facts I am aware of are the following:
There has only been 3 RHD car available in the UK during the 6 months or so. Prices (at least, in the asking) have moved on since I was looking last summer. LHD cars are coming into the UK market and you cannot buy a "good" car in Europe without spending at least EUR 90,000. Sad but true!
There are numerous cars around that are priced in the EUR 80,000 bracket or below. I examined every single one of these cars in correspondence. They have histories that would have UK buyers running a mile, e.g. replaced engines, stolen and with no history, no service in the book for years on end, etc.
The fact is that these cars are asking prices much higher than in the last couple of years. Whether they are selling is another question.
My car is perfect but I paid for that privilege.
dom9 said:
Are you aware of this car, AdvocatusD? http://www.chicagomotorcars.com/web/used/Ferrari-3...
Try getting its VIN and then see if it is know from this registry:www.challenge-stradale.com
Lots of US cars on there.
911Thrasher said:
Try getting its VIN and then see if it is know from this registry:
www.challenge-stradale.com
Lots of US cars on there.
It is in the ad: ZFFDU57A140135383www.challenge-stradale.com
Lots of US cars on there.
dom9 said:
Are you aware of this car, AdvocatusD? http://www.chicagomotorcars.com/web/used/Ferrari-3...
Funnily enough, I corresponded with them but decided in the end that I wouldn't buy from the US. Not because there aren't good cars there, but just because it is a lot harder to go there to view a car. I viewed a number of cars in Europe because the logistics are far easier.It is a lovely spec though. It's been up for sale for a long time.
If you are going to go LHD, go to Europe. The costs involved are lower than the US for make the car UK compliant.
KenC said:
911Thrasher said:
Try getting its VIN and then see if it is know from this registry:
www.challenge-stradale.com
Lots of US cars on there.
It is in the ad: ZFFDU57A140135383www.challenge-stradale.com
Lots of US cars on there.
http://www.challenge-stradale.com/135383.html
I'd had a look there, Pierre but wondered if anyone had driven it or knew some of the previous owner's usage/ history...
I like the colour combination but not the (albeit few) aftermarket bits (parking sensors, harnesses etc).
I am in the US, these days, so a US car doesn't bother me and might be re-imported home at some point.
I'm thinking about it but, again, didn't want to fly to Chicago if there were any 'stories'.
I may go and take a look as it's supposed to be a good car, though the paint and interior could do with a tidy up and it was likely tracked.
None of this bother me as any car that I purchase would be well-used and a low mile minter would be pointless! So, I am looking at the lower end of the market but I don't want one with crash history. Cosmetic stuff and maintenance can be sorted... There are some great roads round where Mrs.9 is from (North Arkansas) but it's a 10hr drive up there from here!
I like the colour combination but not the (albeit few) aftermarket bits (parking sensors, harnesses etc).
I am in the US, these days, so a US car doesn't bother me and might be re-imported home at some point.
I'm thinking about it but, again, didn't want to fly to Chicago if there were any 'stories'.
I may go and take a look as it's supposed to be a good car, though the paint and interior could do with a tidy up and it was likely tracked.
None of this bother me as any car that I purchase would be well-used and a low mile minter would be pointless! So, I am looking at the lower end of the market but I don't want one with crash history. Cosmetic stuff and maintenance can be sorted... There are some great roads round where Mrs.9 is from (North Arkansas) but it's a 10hr drive up there from here!
richardmeaks said:
jackal said:
Not knocking the car overall. They are still beautiful and highly desirable and a lot of fun. But not the driving epiphany that many think they are IMO.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree as thats the first review I've *ever* seen that pitches the GT3 anywhere beyond the 360CS. If you consider everything on balance, drivers generally go from Porsche to Ferrari, not the other way around, unless they want cheaper bills or something thats easier as a daily driver as well. But frankly, most won't take our word for it anyway, read everything on balance online (FerrariChat) and the many other resources available and most will consider that the 360CS is a fantastic car. If it wasn't, so many of the collectors with several cars over on Ferrari Chat wouldn't favour them over other exotic metal (including, in some cases, F40s). That's a comment you can't make about a GT3. For example... - 1: “I have a CS and Enzo. I can drive the CS faster on very tight roads because of the shorter wheelbase, and its sound is more stimulating than the Enzo. I call the CS a "baby Enzo" because it was made at the same time, shares many parts, and does nearly everything the same except acceleration and it's a weaker people magnet. BTW, the people I know who collect Ferraris (i.e., 10 or more cars) MUST have a CS in their collection and the ones I've spoken to say it's one of their favorite Ferraris. It's a great car for the street. The Enzo is a little too powerful for the street as you can't really get into the power for more than a few seconds.” (posted by Bill S)
- 2: “I do have some nice Ferraris and other nice cars.” (including F40, Enzo, CS, Maranello, 365GT4/BB, 512BBm). The CS is as far as I am concerned one of the most fun cars to drive. The European version has a sound that is beyond anything that you can imagine. The American version also has a great sound. Let me put it this way: the CS is more fun to drive than the Enzo and the F40, period, Go for the CS”.. I have driven both cars quite a few times, both on the street and on the race track.” (posted by Emena)
- 3: “I have a CS, GT3 RS, Ruf Turbo R and CGT. I find myself faster in the CS on tight courses because of the paddle shifters, better visibility, and smaller lighter-feeling car. It's really hard work to drive a GT3 RS and CGT as fast, but you can if you want to sweat it. If I want to really show off on the turns, I'll usually choose the CS. It is a Challenge Car for the Street! “
- 4: “I have quite alot of track time in 360 modena, F430, 599 and the CS. The CS wins hands down, it is as fast or faster than a 430 on most tracks and alot, I repeat that, ALOT more fun to drive. It feels much more like a race car and the experience is so much more intense and raw, and the sound...( posted by Jompen)
The reviews you have linked to appear to be Ferrari chat owners testaments. Or the CS enthusiasts web site. Not exactly neutral opinions. At the time it was new the CS was usually a close runner up to the contemporary 996GT3RS and not its equal. EVO, CAR etc loved it but rationally couldn't call it better than the Porsche.
Even the Top Gear show you refer to with 911 hating Jezza eulogising about the CS showed Clarkson easily keeping up with the Strad in the RS despite Luca Badoer driving the Ferrari.
This is a very common theme. The emotional tug of the looks , heritage , noise and theatre are all great but in terms of actual driving characteristics, fundamentals, integrity Porsche are the bosses.
I loved the 2 Strads I tried and they are genuinely the best sounding cars I have ever driven but as others have mentioned they have weaknesses.
The Scuderia is better in every way except noise and arguably looks (Subjective, I actually prefer the Scud)
But, I think a 997GT3RS , especially the Gen2 RS , is a superior car to both and EVO called it right back in 2007 when they declared the Porsche the best.
I've had both, I loved the Scuderia, I prefer it to the Strad , but I love the RS I have now on a whole different level. Its just a more engaging, tactile, nimble drivers car (And bits dont fall off it or cost offensive amounts to replace)
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