Help pick a Supercar - £120k budget

[davek_964]

IMI A said:

I'd trust the 458 more than the Mac too in terms of reliability despite the age difference

Hmm. In the owners group, 44 McLarens have just completed a European tour, covering 70k miles between them with no issues.

But yeah - quite unreliably these McLarens.

[Bispal]

davek_964 said:

IMI A said:

I'd trust the 458 more than the Mac too in terms of reliability despite the age difference

Hmm. In the owners group, 44 McLarens have just completed a European tour, covering 70k miles between them with no issues.

But yeah - quite unreliably these McLarens.

And read Gibbo's post today on just that:-

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

So fed up of people spouting nonsense about McLaren reliability. 99% of the owners have very few issues, if any. Ferrari owners just don't talk about their problems on public forums.

[200Plus Club]

Bispal said:

Gibbo spot on as usual, a real owners perspective and hard to argue with. I would go 650s over 570s or go that bit extra to 600LT if you can. 650s is just a bit more reliable. 570s feels more alive and Lotus like at lower speeds, the 650s comes alive at higher speeds and then surpasses the 570s. I prefer the looks of the 650s over the 570s and for me that's the only deciding factor and its subjective. I don't think anyone, even a die hard McLaren advocate like myself, can argue against a 458, they are lovely to drive. Comes down to which you prefer.

The only other cars I would potentially look at require more single minded dedication. The Superformance GT40, it is the most exhilarating adrenalin rush I have ever driven and a full on Le Mans experience. Might be a bit of a long shot to find one at £120k but as winter approaches you might get lucky. And an Exige 430CUP but you need to appreciate it for what it is and many can't do that. I don't think Gibbo mentioned his 410 in comparison?

So in relation to a V8 build I've had Gardner Douglas T70 6 litre, very exhilarating and a great drivers car, but I wouldn't want a GT40 now as too similar.
Was looking at Exiges a couple years ago, like them a lot but a bit out of my thoughts now having had the GT4.

[IMI A]

Bispal said:

davek_964 said:

IMI A said:

I'd trust the 458 more than the Mac too in terms of reliability despite the age difference

Hmm. In the owners group, 44 McLarens have just completed a European tour, covering 70k miles between them with no issues.

But yeah - quite unreliably these McLarens.

And read Gibbo's post today on just that:-

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

So fed up of people spouting nonsense about McLaren reliability. 99% of the owners have very few issues, if any. Ferrari owners just don't talk about their problems on public forums.

I've driven, been on tour, and track with mates 600LT Spyder from new. Leaking shocks, broken gearbox, two cracked windscreens and entertainment not working. Perhaps he's been unlucky if 99% owners have few issues.

[IMI A]

davek_964 said:

IMI A said:

I'd trust the 458 more than the Mac too in terms of reliability despite the age difference

Hmm. In the owners group, 44 McLarens have just completed a European tour, covering 70k miles between them with no issues.

But yeah - quite unreliably these McLarens.

44 Macs covering 70k miles is 1500 miles a car. You'd hope any newish modern car covers 1500 miles without a fault. Goodness me.

[Gibbo205]

IMI A said:

I've driven, been on tour, and track with mates 600LT Spyder from new. Leaking shocks, broken gearbox, two cracked windscreens and entertainment not working. Perhaps he's been unlucky if 99% owners have few issues.

Well by comparison my 458 windscreen cracked, £3800 but insurance paid. The shocks also leak on 458’s so far mine have held up but know a few owners who have had the bill from Ferrari as warranty won’t cover (McLaren warranty covers shocks), my 458’s gearbox started to leak if I’d not had spotted it then it would of eventually self destructed or caused damage but thankfully it was never driven so Ferrari dismantled it, replaced bits and put it back together at £8000 bill to me. I also had the driveshaft seals done at same time as they were weaping, all of this supposedly not covered by warranty either so glad I’d stopped bothering so maybe I’ve been unlucky with my 458, especially as it’s a 2014 car and driven regular, it’s also had corrosion issues as well again at cost to me.

So far with the 600 LT Spider is fantastic, one year in, over 5000 miles, three track days, hit over 170mph on the public road too and it’s never let me down. Any issues have been minor niggles such as door hinges been replaced at my convenience and rattles due to under shield out of alignment all sorted by McLaren FOC, I lost one of my rear brake ducts when driving at 150mph on the road due to undulations so they fitted me a new one and only charged me for the part which was £86.

As such for me McLaren ownership has been great and the service from them has been exceptional, I’ve also been looked after great by Ferrari dealers too but the bulls just been bigger.

I love both cars but McLaren has a far more comprehensive warranty and their cars can be good or bad and other brands also have reliability issues with warranties giving less cover, McLaren get a hard wrap at times, which can be justified but other brands also have issues let’s not discuss GT3 engines…….

Edited by Gibbo205 on Tuesday 26th September 19:47

[123RY]

Bispal said:

And read Gibbo's post today on just that:-

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

So fed up of people spouting nonsense about McLaren reliability. 99% of the owners have very few issues, if any. Ferrari owners just don't talk about their problems on public forums.

That is absolutely classic Bispal.

[mirsgarage]

Love McLaren, really do - incredible looking things and even better to drive. Possibly amongst the very best I've ever owned.

Sadly, this was an all too familiar view of my 720S. Once a month, every month, for 7 or 8 months straight, until I sold it.



Imho, the folks going around chanting "there's nothing wrong with them!!" are just as bad as the people vehemently bashing the company for "always breaking down", the reality is somewhere in between - but I can only speak to my own experience with them. Have subsequently had cars from Lamborghini, Merc, Porsche - all fine. Ferrari incoming so time will tell on that one.

Is it just the early cars? Maybe. Are they better now? Maybe. But do the issues exist with some cars? fking absolutely.

[GTRene]

hah.

btw, which one would you choose without warranty, so driving such cars without warranty, so all will be on your own and or most easy to fix yourself supercar?

[davek_964]

GTRene said:

hah.

btw, which one would you choose without warranty, so driving such cars without warranty, so all will be on your own and or most easy to fix yourself supercar?

I ran my last McLaren for the final year without warranty.
My current one has a warranty simply because it came with one but not the official McLaren and as soon as it expires it will be run without warranty.
My Ferrari - without warranty - lunched its top end, due to a known design fault even though it had the official 'fix'.

Nobody claims McLaren never ever have issues - of course we don't. And I'm sure there are 'Friday' cars. But in my experience - and many other owners, they're no worse than other manufacturers even though - on here - many non owners seem to think you'd struggle to make it around the M25 without it self destructing.

I give up though. If non owners think they're a pile of unreliable crap we're all entitled to an opinion. I'll just continue enjoying mine.

[mirsgarage]

For whatever it's worth - the drivetrain was bulletproof.

It's everything else that was problematic, but I think it's extremely likely these things are much better now. Electrics, mainly. And some hydraulic bits.

My airbrake kept getting stuck up, which was extremely bothersome and involved an entire hydraulic fluid drain and refill, the car wouldn't recognise it's own key so it wouldn't unlock itself with shocking regularity, when it did unlock it wouldn't start because of the same issue in different form, the parking sensors would randomly go off at any speed, the windows would roll themselves up and down completely on it's own, bits of trim fell off often - and finally they had to install shims to get the panels to line up, and even then they were hilariously out of whack.

My point is, all of this stuff is just "early production teething issues", and it's entirely plausible we're all right - and that the cars are wonderful and faultless now - but those early cars (I'm told with the red McL logo on the back, but this could be anecdotal BS) are kinda basket cases as McLaren didn't have their QA processes quite right.

Ultimately I own a Panamera that stuck it's own fuel filler shut. st happens to every brand. But I'm also fairly sure there's a correlation somewhere in the production run where they just weren't getting it right. Because there are far too many stories from a particular "era" of car so to speak.

[IMI A]

Gibbo205 said:

IMI A said:

I've driven, been on tour, and track with mates 600LT Spyder from new. Leaking shocks, broken gearbox, two cracked windscreens and entertainment not working. Perhaps he's been unlucky if 99% owners have few issues.

Well by comparison my 458 windscreen cracked, £3800 but insurance paid. The shocks also leak on 458’s so far mine have held up but know a few owners who have had the bill from Ferrari as warranty won’t cover (McLaren warranty covers shocks), my 458’s gearbox started to leak if I’d not had spotted it then it would of eventually self destructed or caused damage but thankfully it was never driven so Ferrari dismantled it, replaced bits and put it back together at £8000 bill to me. I also had the driveshaft seals done at same time as they were weaping, all of this supposedly not covered by warranty either so glad I’d stopped bothering so maybe I’ve been unlucky with my 458, especially as it’s a 2014 car and driven regular, it’s also had corrosion issues as well again at cost to me.

So far with the 600 LT Spider is fantastic, one year in, over 5000 miles, three track days, hit over 170mph on the public road too and it’s never let me down. Any issues have been minor niggles such as door hinges been replaced at my convenience and rattles due to under shield out of alignment all sorted by McLaren FOC, I lost one of my rear brake ducts when driving at 150mph on the road due to undulations so they fitted me a new one and only charged me for the part which was £86.

As such for me McLaren ownership has been great and the service from them has been exceptional, I’ve also been looked after great by Ferrari dealers too but the bulls just been bigger.

I love both cars but McLaren has a far more comprehensive warranty and their cars can be good or bad and other brands also have reliability issues with warranties giving less cover, McLaren get a hard wrap at times, which can be justified but other brands also have issues let’s not discuss GT3 engines…….

Edited by Gibbo205 on Tuesday 26th September 19:47

Gibbo I offered to buy said friends 600LT I loved it and figured he’d fixed all the issues on the car for me. He wouldn’t sell it to me on basis he didn’t trust the car to go to a friend especially as he knows how I use them. Same with OP he uses them like you do. £160k would have bought a 24 month old car with less than 10k miles on the car which I thought was an amazing deal in 2022. He was on one of those finance deals where Mcl were literally giving the 600LTs away. I didn’t mention a 600LT as not looked at prices but didn’t think it was in budget. The Ferrari I could forgive that car any fault. Fantastic NA engine I love them. Had deposit on new one but had to take it back due to personal circumstances Ferrari were even flying us out (at their expense) to Atelier in Italy and everything back in 2013 as I was a director at a very well known footy club. The one that got away. For me Ferrari the reference supercar and knowing the OP I think he’d love this particular car. True supercar the 458.

I love convertibles and this 600 LT defo a bit of me. Just look at it. Had a lot of fun road and track in this maybe my mate was just unlucky and super paranoid about the car being a Porsche owner for many years. He told me later he didn’t let me have it as he feared there may also be an engine fault so handed the 600 LT back to them. On road and track it could not keep up with my tuned 997 so could well have been an engine fault. There’s a few videos on my YouTube channel which shows difference in straight line performance but I just put that down to traction and a little under 700bhp v 600bhp. On circuit I was much quicker than him too again put this down to traction and me knowing the circuit well. If the budget was a bit more I’d still recommend the 600 LT spyder but as I said in first post I wouldn’t want to choose between 991.2 GT3, 600 LT and 458

[200Plus Club]

The amount of niggles with paint/keys/windows etc is a worry I must admit but not completely off putting. Paying for a warranty is a must, at least the first year or more I guess just to have confidence. I think that having looked at the Thorney Motorsport site their second hand car sales look tempting if they've been through the car and their selling package includes their warranty as well. One of the cars currently for sale mentions a £13k "refresh" bill prior to sale. I see they also do a full hose clamp replacement service for cars, I know someone who has had hose clamps fail on his. This would be the route I would probably take on a second hand purchase I imagine.

[Gibbo205]

200Plus Club said:

The amount of niggles with paint/keys/windows etc is a worry I must admit but not completely off putting. Paying for a warranty is a must, at least the first year or more I guess just to have confidence. I think that having looked at the Thorney Motorsport site their second hand car sales look tempting if they've been through the car and their selling package includes their warranty as well. One of the cars currently for sale mentions a £13k "refresh" bill prior to sale. I see they also do a full hose clamp replacement service for cars, I know someone who has had hose clamps fail on his. This would be the route I would probably take on a second hand purchase I imagine.

Well due to a coolant hose clamp fail in USA a recall was issued and that recall is now been issued in the U.K. and is starting now which involves coolant clamps, sensors all getting refreshed for better quality parts FOC.

[Gibbo205]

IMI A said:

Gibbo I offered to buy said friends 600LT I loved it and figured he’d fixed all the issues on the car for me. He wouldn’t sell it to me on basis he didn’t trust the car to go to a friend especially as he knows how I use them. Same with OP he uses them like you do. £160k would have bought a 24 month old car with less than 10k miles on the car which I thought was an amazing deal in 2022. He was on one of those finance deals where Mcl were literally giving the 600LTs away. I didn’t mention a 600LT as not looked at prices but didn’t think it was in budget. The Ferrari I could forgive that car any fault. Fantastic NA engine I love them. Had deposit on new one but had to take it back due to personal circumstances Ferrari were even flying us out (at their expense) to Atelier in Italy and everything back in 2013 as I was a director at a very well known footy club. The one that got away. For me Ferrari the reference supercar and knowing the OP I think he’d love this particular car. True supercar the 458.

I love convertibles and this 600 LT defo a bit of me. Just look at it. Had a lot of fun road and track in this maybe my mate was just unlucky and super paranoid about the car being a Porsche owner for many years. He told me later he didn’t let me have it as he feared there may also be an engine fault so handed the 600 LT back to them. On road and track it could not keep up with my tuned 997 so could well have been an engine fault. There’s a few videos on my YouTube channel which shows difference in straight line performance but I just put that down to traction and a little under 700bhp v 600bhp. On circuit I was much quicker than him too again put this down to traction and me knowing the circuit well. If the budget was a bit more I’d still recommend the 600 LT spyder but as I said in first post I wouldn’t want to choose between 991.2 GT3, 600 LT and 458

My 600 LT at Donington:




it was very quick as a couple of 992 GT3 RS owners found out and far far quicker than my 991.1 GT3 was literally night and day difference.

600 LT is a 10.5s quarter mile car with 130+ terminals so if healthy they ain’t slow!

It was the looks that attracted me to the 600 LT namely exhaust placement and the sound track offered to the driver, particular in Spider format which PH cover very well in their review of the car saying it’s almost the perfect car and one of the very best cars he has ever driven:





It’s no secret I adore mine it’s a far more capable and useable car than the 458 which I also adore but on track compared to my 458 and GT3 the 600 LT even in Spider format is just in another league and on the road it’s far more an event than GT3 but matched by 458.

I never need an excuse to post pictures so a few of my 600:











Anyway enough chat of 600’s as they are not 120k any more but the OP could get lucky and find a coupe with miles for 120k or poor spec but I’d never advise anyone buys a poor spec car or lowest price point one, hence 570S alternative. For 120k a OK spec and miles 458 should be possible.

Edited by Gibbo205 on Wednesday 27th September 08:15

[ex-devonpaul]

mirsgarage said:

My airbrake kept getting stuck up, which was extremely bothersome and involved an entire hydraulic fluid drain and refill, the car wouldn't recognise it's own key so it wouldn't unlock itself with shocking regularity, when it did unlock it wouldn't start because of the same issue in different form, the parking sensors would randomly go off at any speed, the windows would roll themselves up and down completely on it's own, bits of trim fell off often - and finally they had to install shims to get the panels to line up, and even then they were hilariously out of whack.

Hell's teeth - sounds like a 1980s Maserati assembled on a British Leyland line by a Harley Davidson engineer.

[TBCTBC]

mirsgarage said:

Is it just the early cars? Maybe. Are they better now? Maybe. But do the issues exist with some cars? fking absolutely.

Fairly sure the early 720s's, with the red woosh logo on the back, had an older software version which didn't help with the niggles.

The newer version with the silver woosh logo came with a software upgrade which resolved most of these niggles. Think these were 2018/2019 cars?

What olour was yours? I think the older cars could be upgraded too?

[Gibbo205]

I personally feel the 720S is one of the bigger contributing factors to McLarens been regarded as unreliable as they are the car which seemed to have the most issues and many of which were beyond just niggles and seems to have caused a poor reputation.

It’s a young company but it has now been several years so you’d hope cars are a much better standard now or certainly tested a lot more before dropping in the hands of customers. They seem to have good runs and bad runs for sure, the Artura seems like it could be a car with many niggles so hope they perfect the software before they start to sell larger volumes.

I can only speak about my car the 600 LT which has been great and so far has never had an issue that caused me a problem and other owners of 675 and 600 LT’s seem very happy with their cars.

I have to remember not to drive my LT daily to try and make it feel special the times I do drive but it’s such a great car to drive anywhere and everywhere I find even commuting to work in traffic an event in it.

[Bispal]

Gibbo205 said:

I personally feel the 720S is one of the bigger contributing factors to McLarens been regarded as unreliable as they are the car which seemed to have the most issues and many of which were beyond just niggles and seems to have caused a poor reputation.

It’s a young company but it has now been several years so you’d hope cars are a much better standard now or certainly tested a lot more before dropping in the hands of customers. They seem to have good runs and bad runs for sure, the Artura seems like it could be a car with many niggles so hope they perfect the software before they start to sell larger volumes.

I can only speak about my car the 600 LT which has been great and so far has never had an issue that caused me a problem and other owners of 675 and 600 LT’s seem very happy with their cars.

I have to remember not to drive my LT daily to try and make it feel special the times I do drive but it’s such a great car to drive anywhere and everywhere I find even commuting to work in traffic an event in it.

The general consensus is:-

12C - first car, had niggles, now almost all fixed and now very few issues
650s - no real issues as 12C niggles resolved
675LT - as above but even more so
570s - first sports series so again niggles, mostly doors, windows, paint / corrosion and electronics
720s (red swoosh) - similar to 570s
720s (later cars) - mostly all issues resolved

The 570 & 720 seem to be main culprits for issues but these are now mostly ironed out like the 12C. At least this is what I am hearing from owners but I fully expect their to be anomalies and outliers.

[bridggar1]

Q to OP - I know you said at the start that AM was not a consideration - but as someone who's cross shopping 911/570/Portifino/Vantage - I'm wondering if I too am missing something?