Oil - You get what you pay for!
Discussion
opieoilman said:
Castor oils are the best lubricants, but as you know they cannot be made into a multigrade so not suitable for modern engines, they dont last long either.
But........
If you want that good old smell that castor gives then plop a cup full or two into your petrol tank, it works.
Cheers
Guy.
I would have thought a synthetic version would be do-able which could use a variety of chain lengths to get a breadth of properties. Side chains or whatever..... I'm adament that there is room for development with these sorts of compounds.
What do you think of the alternative approach of buying a middle-tier oil and just changing it much more regularly?
Assuming many of the benefits of the top-dollar high % ester synthetics are due to stability of the compounds and retention of viscosity at operating temperatures over a longer period of time, is there a cross-over point at which it becomes cost and value neutral to buy cheaper oil more often?
Is there any particular performance characteristic of the top-dollar oils that brand-new 'regular' oil can't match? By 'regular' I mean branded stuff like Castrol Magnatec which aren't proper synthetics, compared with your list of top oils.
I'd be interested to know
Assuming many of the benefits of the top-dollar high % ester synthetics are due to stability of the compounds and retention of viscosity at operating temperatures over a longer period of time, is there a cross-over point at which it becomes cost and value neutral to buy cheaper oil more often?
Is there any particular performance characteristic of the top-dollar oils that brand-new 'regular' oil can't match? By 'regular' I mean branded stuff like Castrol Magnatec which aren't proper synthetics, compared with your list of top oils.
I'd be interested to know
In the first mile the higher volatility, inferior anti-wear performance and poor temperature resistance of a cheap grade of oil will start to show.
Obviously, there will be no immediate effects. The whole point of top quality oil is long-term performance retention, which is particularly valuable to people who actually own the car they drive! The ‘performance’ enthusiast will want to retain the new-spec BHP figures, and the cost-conscious will want to see good fuel economy with 100,000 on the clock.
Cheap oil, (particularly 10W/40 or thinner) evaporates quickly, and the vapour is drawn into the combustion chambers via the crankcase ventilation system. This means calcium and zinc oxide deposits (from oil additives) which will cause pre-ignition, so the knock sensor retards the ignition, giving less power and poor fuel economy.
The deposits also contaminate the exhaust catalyst, leading to high emissions and MOT failure. How much does an average catalyst box cost these days?!
False economy in my opinion.
Cheers
Simon
Obviously, there will be no immediate effects. The whole point of top quality oil is long-term performance retention, which is particularly valuable to people who actually own the car they drive! The ‘performance’ enthusiast will want to retain the new-spec BHP figures, and the cost-conscious will want to see good fuel economy with 100,000 on the clock.
Cheap oil, (particularly 10W/40 or thinner) evaporates quickly, and the vapour is drawn into the combustion chambers via the crankcase ventilation system. This means calcium and zinc oxide deposits (from oil additives) which will cause pre-ignition, so the knock sensor retards the ignition, giving less power and poor fuel economy.
The deposits also contaminate the exhaust catalyst, leading to high emissions and MOT failure. How much does an average catalyst box cost these days?!
False economy in my opinion.
Cheers
Simon
Guy / Simon .. there's a thread running at the moment about oil temp gauges in V8 AJP TVR Cerberas .. in cold weather under cruise conditions the oil temp never gets above about 40degC .. the oil cooler has no thermostat in as std so is always cooling the oil down no matter what, and even on cars I've fitted thermostats to you still find these low temps as the finned alloy sump is a great oil cooler in it's own right.
Bearing in mind the over-cooling effect of the cerbera's inherent design, are there any cavaets to the advice for oil in Cerbera engines? I can't imagine 40degC is the sorts of oil temps an engineer would choose for a production engine ...
thanks in advance, Joo.
Bearing in mind the over-cooling effect of the cerbera's inherent design, are there any cavaets to the advice for oil in Cerbera engines? I can't imagine 40degC is the sorts of oil temps an engineer would choose for a production engine ...
thanks in advance, Joo.
trackcar said:
in cold weather under cruise conditions the oil temp never gets above about 40degC .. the oil cooler has no thermostat in as std so is always cooling the oil down no matter what, and even on cars I've fitted thermostats to you still find these low temps as the finned alloy sump is a great oil cooler in it's own right.
Why not just block some/all of the cooler with a piece of card/ally plate. (Might look like a london taxi though!).
>> Edited by eliot on Saturday 26th November 08:47
>> Edited by eliot on Saturday 26th November 08:47
trackcar said:
Guy / Simon .. there's a thread running at the moment about oil temp gauges in V8 AJP TVR Cerberas .. in cold weather under cruise conditions the oil temp never gets above about 40degC .. the oil cooler has no thermostat in as std so is always cooling the oil down no matter what, and even on cars I've fitted thermostats to you still find these low temps as the finned alloy sump is a great oil cooler in it's own right.
Bearing in mind the over-cooling effect of the cerbera's inherent design, are there any cavaets to the advice for oil in Cerbera engines? I can't imagine 40degC is the sorts of oil temps an engineer would choose for a production engine ...
thanks in advance, Joo.
Joo,
Oil running at 40degc is really not too good.
Most road oils are designed to work at optimum 80degc up wards depending on make up and design.
Cheers
Guy.
opieoilman said:
Millers claim to now esters.
Not sure of content though, we are having some tested so we willknow for sure soon.
Cheers
Guy.
Hi Guy, For a few years we have been 'Millers fans' so would be interested to know any info.
btw I did get the
VickyM to pick up some Silkolene pro from you at one of the Jap shows last year, it's certainly good stuff thanks. Matt
opieoilman said:
In the first mile the higher volatility, inferior anti-wear performance and poor temperature resistance of a cheap grade of oil will start to show.
Obviously, there will be no immediate effects. The whole point of top quality oil is long-term performance retention, which is particularly valuable to people who actually own the car they drive! The ‘performance’ enthusiast will want to retain the new-spec BHP figures, and the cost-conscious will want to see good fuel economy with 100,000 on the clock.
Cheap oil, (particularly 10W/40 or thinner) evaporates quickly, and the vapour is drawn into the combustion chambers via the crankcase ventilation system. This means calcium and zinc oxide deposits (from oil additives) which will cause pre-ignition, so the knock sensor retards the ignition, giving less power and poor fuel economy.
The deposits also contaminate the exhaust catalyst, leading to high emissions and MOT failure. How much does an average catalyst box cost these days?!
False economy in my opinion.
Cheers
Simon
Cheers for the advice - by 'cheap' I was meaning stuff like Magnatec rather than unbranded / cheap and nasty stuff, though from your post it seems that it's either proper synthetics or no go!!
I'm currently using Mobil 1 'motorsport' 15/50 since the porker tends to burn the really thin stuff.
I don't do a lot of miles - is oil condition related only to engine use or does simple time kill it? It gets an oil change every year regardless.
I got sent this thread by a friend who had bought some Millers CFS from me recently. He was naturally concerned that it wasn't as good as I'd said it was. I spoke to Millers who confirmed that in Europe Synthetic oil must be true Ester synthetic and not cracked mineral. They confirmed the ester content of CFS (competition fully synthetic) to be 70%. Therefore far higher than 20%. I wonder if some of these other oils are American and not European perhaps explaining their lower ester content.
Millers emailed me the following:
"we are happy that our new 3 ester formualation is the most advanced available
early 2005, we visited all the additive companies to understand the latest technology available.
we then formulated and race tested the new formulations which we call 3 ester because it has a blend of 3 different esters plus all the antiwear, detergent, ant intifoam additives that are also required.
the esters are all class 5 , pao's.... the latest available.
we are therefore confident that no one has a more up to date formualtion."
Millers emailed me the following:
"we are happy that our new 3 ester formualation is the most advanced available
early 2005, we visited all the additive companies to understand the latest technology available.
we then formulated and race tested the new formulations which we call 3 ester because it has a blend of 3 different esters plus all the antiwear, detergent, ant intifoam additives that are also required.
the esters are all class 5 , pao's.... the latest available.
we are therefore confident that no one has a more up to date formualtion."
It's also quite reasonable -
£35.11 for 10/40 here www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/pp/Fluids_and_Lubricants/Engine_Oil/Millers_Oil_-_CFS_10w40_Competition_Fully_Synthetic_5_litres.html
and same price for 10/60
www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/pp/Fluids_and_Lubricants/Engine_Oil/Millers_Oil_-_CFS_10w60_Competition_Fully_Synthetic_5_litres.html
£35.11 for 10/40 here www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/pp/Fluids_and_Lubricants/Engine_Oil/Millers_Oil_-_CFS_10w40_Competition_Fully_Synthetic_5_litres.html
and same price for 10/60
www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/pp/Fluids_and_Lubricants/Engine_Oil/Millers_Oil_-_CFS_10w60_Competition_Fully_Synthetic_5_litres.html
I'm sorry mate, this is shot through with inaccuracies.
Firstly in the UK, synthetic can be "hydrocracked" oil, Germany is the only country where it has to be labelled properly.
Secondly synthetics don't have to be esters, they can be "hydrocracked" (Group III) or "pao" poly alpha olefins (Group IV).
Finally, their oils will not be 70% esters or they would cost £20 per litre not £5 per litre! They probably mean 70% synthetic (group IV & V) and 30% non-synthetic (group II/III).
I would like to see their reply in writing
We will be testing their oil in the next few weeks and will be able to tell you exactly what it contains!
Cheers
Simon
>> Edited by opieoilman on Monday 28th November 17:24
Firstly in the UK, synthetic can be "hydrocracked" oil, Germany is the only country where it has to be labelled properly.
Secondly synthetics don't have to be esters, they can be "hydrocracked" (Group III) or "pao" poly alpha olefins (Group IV).
Finally, their oils will not be 70% esters or they would cost £20 per litre not £5 per litre! They probably mean 70% synthetic (group IV & V) and 30% non-synthetic (group II/III).
I would like to see their reply in writing
We will be testing their oil in the next few weeks and will be able to tell you exactly what it contains!
Cheers
Simon
>> Edited by opieoilman on Monday 28th November 17:24
Forgot to mention
Quote:
the esters are all class 5 , pao's.... the latest available.
Unquote:
I'm not sure who this person is but esters are not pao's.
PAO's are group IV and esters are Group V.
Something does not stack up here I'm afraid.
Lets get the lab results and we'll know for sure.
Cheers
Simon
Quote:
the esters are all class 5 , pao's.... the latest available.
Unquote:
I'm not sure who this person is but esters are not pao's.
PAO's are group IV and esters are Group V.
Something does not stack up here I'm afraid.
Lets get the lab results and we'll know for sure.
Cheers
Simon
Simon,
What sort of testing do you undertake?
When the German Green Castrol 0W30 was tested in US they identified a unique ester (unlike Redline POE). Also some of the additive pack may be esters so although not base oil still part of mix. Any information that you can disclose would be interesting.
What sort of testing do you undertake?
When the German Green Castrol 0W30 was tested in US they identified a unique ester (unlike Redline POE). Also some of the additive pack may be esters so although not base oil still part of mix. Any information that you can disclose would be interesting.
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