She lives ! / X flow timing question ......
Discussion
Well, if you remember, a few months back the X flow in my Westie exploded in a interesting stylee, totally obliterating the engine. As a postscript to that, upon disassembly the reason why it happened is as follows : the cam follower on the inlet valve which met the piston was all broken, so I think the follower broke up, a chunk of the broken metal got between the cam and the remains of the follower, and pushed the valve that little bit too far, resulting in the bang. Interestingly enough, another of the followers was completely snapped off, resulting in huge clearances on that valve. This had happened some time ago, as the cam had worn smooth the "rough" metal on the break (knackering the cam lobe in the process of course). Oh well ....
Anyway, I went out and bought a similar spec engine which had just been taken out of another Westie from a fellow PH member (who shall remain nameless). This engine was sold to me as "good and running", however as soon as I put it in my car it was obvious all was not well ... knocking from the bottom end, a lot of blow past the rings, and blue smoke. Various swear words ensued. So, back out with the engine again (I can now take the engine out of my Westie in 2 hours dead !!
) and off to my local engine specialists, who have replaced / done the following : hone, new rings, new valve guides (2), cam bearings, shell bearings (4 out of the 8 were down to the copper ... VERY badly worn) and a regrind of the scratched crank. I now have a nice fresh tight little engine installed (took all weekend !) which fired up yesterday afternoon for the first time ! Woo hoo !
Which leads me on to my question. At the moment the timing is VERY roughly set, which allows the engine to run, but on a very short trip round the block the engine was wanting to overheat, presumably because the time is so badly out. I'm going to call out a mobile tuners, to set the engine up "about right" so I can do lots of running in miles, before taking her to a rolling road. But what should the timing be on something like this ?!?!?
(engine spec : 1700 X flow, A6 cam, connaught performance dizzy fitted with luminition ignition, twin 45DCOE's, full race head)
Cheers !
Nev
Anyway, I went out and bought a similar spec engine which had just been taken out of another Westie from a fellow PH member (who shall remain nameless). This engine was sold to me as "good and running", however as soon as I put it in my car it was obvious all was not well ... knocking from the bottom end, a lot of blow past the rings, and blue smoke. Various swear words ensued. So, back out with the engine again (I can now take the engine out of my Westie in 2 hours dead !!
) and off to my local engine specialists, who have replaced / done the following : hone, new rings, new valve guides (2), cam bearings, shell bearings (4 out of the 8 were down to the copper ... VERY badly worn) and a regrind of the scratched crank. I now have a nice fresh tight little engine installed (took all weekend !) which fired up yesterday afternoon for the first time ! Woo hoo ! Which leads me on to my question. At the moment the timing is VERY roughly set, which allows the engine to run, but on a very short trip round the block the engine was wanting to overheat, presumably because the time is so badly out. I'm going to call out a mobile tuners, to set the engine up "about right" so I can do lots of running in miles, before taking her to a rolling road. But what should the timing be on something like this ?!?!?
(engine spec : 1700 X flow, A6 cam, connaught performance dizzy fitted with luminition ignition, twin 45DCOE's, full race head)
Cheers !
Nev
deltaf said: Sounds like you shoulda asked for a refund!!!
I did, ahem, discuss it with the gentleman concerned however he just said "it was okay when I last ran it". Yeah. Right. So I'm just imagining the chronic blow by and the blue smoke then. Must take some photos of the completely-copper, no-white-metal-left knackered shell bearings and send them to him. No matter. Caveat emptor, plus you live and learn.
then the timing sounds like its way too retarded to me
Quite possibly. Um ... which way is retarted ?!? (doh)
can't you call them
They weren't quite sure what the timing should be ... I did ask them.
shagged thermostat
The thermostat is brand new, but I take your point. I was planning on whipping the thermostat out tonight (I was thinking more along the lines of air 'blockage' somewhere)
Cheers
Just coz I couldn't remember my advanced from retarded (maybe it's me who's the retarded
MR2Mike said:
Mark B said: [Timing light won't help apart from set it at whatever you decide. You need to ring Piper or Kent first and find out what is recommended by them.....
The cam manufacturers are most unlikely to be able to give a number any more accurate than already given in here. There are far more variables than just the cam that affect ignition timing.
If the timing was set so badly retarded that it was overheating then the OP should have been able to feel the lack of power and general unwillingness to rev, even if it is being carefully run in.
Nope, it ran like a dream, and didn't even need to turn over once to start. I mean, I didn't take it over 3000 rpm of course, but it was more than happy to run.
Maybe it is/was an air block then ....
denhay .... ah, interesting thought. The engine has barely got 50 miles on it now, and I KNOW it's still fairly tight as the tiny race battery struggles to turn it over from cold a bit.
The engine is still .... well, I wouldn't say overheating, but the temperature is fluctuating lots between 90 degrees and 105 degrees whilst driving (I'm limiting myself to 3000 rpm at the moment, btw).
I've replaced the water pump (which had decided to start dripping anyway) and that made no difference. I've played with the engine timing between 2 deg and 10 deg BTDC and that made no difference either.
I dont think it's the temp gauge or sender because the oil pressure varies in relation to the temperature, i.e. when the engine gets hot, the pressure drops a bar or so (i.e. the oil gets "runnier" .... I'm only using a cheap oil for the running in period)
I took the (new) thermostat out completely, and that helped loads, but did severly over cool the engine (70-80 degrees). I've dug out an old thermostat which I will pop in tonight, OR I might try the old trick of ripping the working guts out of the thermostat, and just put the blanking plate with hole in the housing (i.e. effectively an "always open" thermostat, but coolant flow is still restricted through the plate)
The other odd thing is that the temperature variation seems to happen VERY suddenly, i.e. one second it's 105, 2 or 3 seconds later it's dropped to 90 ...
The engine is still .... well, I wouldn't say overheating, but the temperature is fluctuating lots between 90 degrees and 105 degrees whilst driving (I'm limiting myself to 3000 rpm at the moment, btw).
I've replaced the water pump (which had decided to start dripping anyway) and that made no difference. I've played with the engine timing between 2 deg and 10 deg BTDC and that made no difference either.
I dont think it's the temp gauge or sender because the oil pressure varies in relation to the temperature, i.e. when the engine gets hot, the pressure drops a bar or so (i.e. the oil gets "runnier" .... I'm only using a cheap oil for the running in period)
I took the (new) thermostat out completely, and that helped loads, but did severly over cool the engine (70-80 degrees). I've dug out an old thermostat which I will pop in tonight, OR I might try the old trick of ripping the working guts out of the thermostat, and just put the blanking plate with hole in the housing (i.e. effectively an "always open" thermostat, but coolant flow is still restricted through the plate)
The other odd thing is that the temperature variation seems to happen VERY suddenly, i.e. one second it's 105, 2 or 3 seconds later it's dropped to 90 ...
Well .... of course a possability that it's electrical. However :
1) I've tried a new (old) sensor, no difference.
2) The little temp gauge stickers put on the core plugs by the engine rebuilders have registered temperatures > 100 degrees
3) When the temperature goes up to 105 or so, the oil pressure takes a dive by 1 bar or so (cheap running in oil)
4) With no thermostat the temperature is stable and consistent .... just way too cold !
Thanks all though for the ideas ....
1) I've tried a new (old) sensor, no difference.
2) The little temp gauge stickers put on the core plugs by the engine rebuilders have registered temperatures > 100 degrees
3) When the temperature goes up to 105 or so, the oil pressure takes a dive by 1 bar or so (cheap running in oil)
4) With no thermostat the temperature is stable and consistent .... just way too cold !
Thanks all though for the ideas ....
It's funny you should say that zefarelly ....
Success ! And the cause ?
Well, we all know rule 1 which is :
RULE 1 : just because a part is brand new, dont assume it's okay.
Well, I'm going to add rule 2 :
RULE 2 : just because you buy your parts from a long standing X flow expert, dont assume that the part they supply is the right one !
Whipped the new thermostat out of the car, and compared it to the old thermostat out of the blown engine .... and guess what, the old thermostat is rated at 74 degrees, the new one at 88 ! Popped in the old thermostat and yup, you've guessed it, problem solved. Have just done about 85 miles in her, with a rock steady gauge reading of 80 degrees ... sorted !
Though I'm a bit confused as to why the temperature fluctuated ... perhaps because the new thermostat's opening temperature was so high, the engine would heat up, get too hot, eventually reach the thermostat's opening temperature, which would open and let a flood of cold water through from the radiator, then the thermostat would close up again, until the engine had heated this next batch of water up ... dunno, just guessing.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts and help
Success ! And the cause ?
Well, we all know rule 1 which is :
RULE 1 : just because a part is brand new, dont assume it's okay.
Well, I'm going to add rule 2 :
RULE 2 : just because you buy your parts from a long standing X flow expert, dont assume that the part they supply is the right one !
Whipped the new thermostat out of the car, and compared it to the old thermostat out of the blown engine .... and guess what, the old thermostat is rated at 74 degrees, the new one at 88 ! Popped in the old thermostat and yup, you've guessed it, problem solved. Have just done about 85 miles in her, with a rock steady gauge reading of 80 degrees ... sorted !
Though I'm a bit confused as to why the temperature fluctuated ... perhaps because the new thermostat's opening temperature was so high, the engine would heat up, get too hot, eventually reach the thermostat's opening temperature, which would open and let a flood of cold water through from the radiator, then the thermostat would close up again, until the engine had heated this next batch of water up ... dunno, just guessing.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts and help
Well, the saga continues .... and I'm really losing faith in this car now .....
As you remember, I found that putting another thermostat in solved the cooling fluctuation.
Well, the car is in for it's rolling road session today. The garage has just rung me, and has stopped the RR coz she was pressurising her coolant at high revs. A quick test later, and they've confirmed that the head gasket has gone !!!
This means that either
a) I've warped the head when I had the wrong thermostat in, and f**ked it then (but it was only a 88 degree thermostat), or
b) putting the cooler (74 deg) thermostat in has masked the problem, and it's been there since the rebuild
They're trying to retorque the head (which it would have needed shortly anyway) to see if that solves it .... otherwise it's back to the engine builders ...
{sob}
As you remember, I found that putting another thermostat in solved the cooling fluctuation.
Well, the car is in for it's rolling road session today. The garage has just rung me, and has stopped the RR coz she was pressurising her coolant at high revs. A quick test later, and they've confirmed that the head gasket has gone !!!
This means that either
a) I've warped the head when I had the wrong thermostat in, and f**ked it then (but it was only a 88 degree thermostat), or
b) putting the cooler (74 deg) thermostat in has masked the problem, and it's been there since the rebuild
They're trying to retorque the head (which it would have needed shortly anyway) to see if that solves it .... otherwise it's back to the engine builders ...
{sob}
Well, lets give the place that built it a chance to put the mistake (whatever it is) right first, eh ? They were very good apart from this problem, even picking up and dropping off the engine free of charge
The car's still at the rolling road place .... off to pick it up shortly. Dont want to start taking it apart until I've spoken to the place that built the engine, as that might invalidate the warranty.
My main beef is with the car itself .... I'm sure the f***ers jinxed !!
Can cars be cursed ?
The car's still at the rolling road place .... off to pick it up shortly. Dont want to start taking it apart until I've spoken to the place that built the engine, as that might invalidate the warranty.
My main beef is with the car itself .... I'm sure the f***ers jinxed !!
Can cars be cursed ?
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