Supercharged 2.5 944 project.
Discussion
Hi all,
I've got money burning a hole in my pocket and I need more power!
I have an n/a 2.5 944. It is thouroughly sorted in the suspension and brakes dept along with some nice wide cup wheels and it genereally excellent!
Other than the engine.
Now, I have a nitrous oxide kit kicking around and I'll probably run it with that for a laugh but I want a permanent wpoer fix.
I can't afford to insure a 944 turbo or 3.0 s2 so tuning my one it is.
I did consider an ls1 v8 conversion but that would've been too much of a project which elave the supercharger kit thats available from the states.
Its supposed to be a bolt on conversion hardware wise and with a pre programmed a/f controller that goes inline with the ecu to control fueling and spark.
That sounds nice but its mapped for a USA car with a 9.5:1 c/r whereas mine has a 10.6:1 c/r so I'll no doubt get det problems and going by my past experiances with mapping megasquirt ecu's this is something I want to avoid mapping myself or get someone else to do it.
What should I do?
I was thinking of getting all the hardware to mount and drive the blower as well as the blower itself from the states and doign the rest myself that being get a 944 turbo ic (same as what they use in the kit) from over here and mouting that myself to save some pennies and getting an emerald ecu to control it all and have dave walker map it.
This could be done for less than 3k.
OR shall I find a way of lowering my c/r and using the complete US kit. This could be done by way of decompression plates but won't this affect the bet lengths and so on?
I forgot to add that I do have the added advantage of 99ron fuel over here unlike their 93.
All help appreciated!
Gav
I've got money burning a hole in my pocket and I need more power!
I have an n/a 2.5 944. It is thouroughly sorted in the suspension and brakes dept along with some nice wide cup wheels and it genereally excellent!
Other than the engine.
Now, I have a nitrous oxide kit kicking around and I'll probably run it with that for a laugh but I want a permanent wpoer fix.
I can't afford to insure a 944 turbo or 3.0 s2 so tuning my one it is.
I did consider an ls1 v8 conversion but that would've been too much of a project which elave the supercharger kit thats available from the states.
Its supposed to be a bolt on conversion hardware wise and with a pre programmed a/f controller that goes inline with the ecu to control fueling and spark.
That sounds nice but its mapped for a USA car with a 9.5:1 c/r whereas mine has a 10.6:1 c/r so I'll no doubt get det problems and going by my past experiances with mapping megasquirt ecu's this is something I want to avoid mapping myself or get someone else to do it.
What should I do?
I was thinking of getting all the hardware to mount and drive the blower as well as the blower itself from the states and doign the rest myself that being get a 944 turbo ic (same as what they use in the kit) from over here and mouting that myself to save some pennies and getting an emerald ecu to control it all and have dave walker map it.
This could be done for less than 3k.
OR shall I find a way of lowering my c/r and using the complete US kit. This could be done by way of decompression plates but won't this affect the bet lengths and so on?
I forgot to add that I do have the added advantage of 99ron fuel over here unlike their 93.
All help appreciated!
Gav
Don't worry the insurance company gets told about everything!
Mr Boosted!
There seems to be very little info on these engiens when it comes to mods, probably because nobody bothers. . . . .
Anyways, machining the pistons bowls is possible according to some fella's in the states and i'm sure theres gotta be some meat in the heads that can be removed however I believe Porsche went to alot of bother with engine balance on these, am I opening a can of worms by messing with that?
Turbo pistons will fit but lower the c.r by wuite a bit, 8:1 iirc plus they're sized individually to piston bore unlike the the rv8 which I'm used to so swapping pistons is out of the question.
Does anyone know how strong the pistons are?
I have another spare engine so it makes sense to prep that for action meaning I can take my time over it without disabling my car.
Give me a chance to uprate the clutch too. . . .
Anymore brainstorming ideas?
Mr Boosted!
There seems to be very little info on these engiens when it comes to mods, probably because nobody bothers. . . . .
Anyways, machining the pistons bowls is possible according to some fella's in the states and i'm sure theres gotta be some meat in the heads that can be removed however I believe Porsche went to alot of bother with engine balance on these, am I opening a can of worms by messing with that?
Turbo pistons will fit but lower the c.r by wuite a bit, 8:1 iirc plus they're sized individually to piston bore unlike the the rv8 which I'm used to so swapping pistons is out of the question.
Does anyone know how strong the pistons are?
I have another spare engine so it makes sense to prep that for action meaning I can take my time over it without disabling my car.
Give me a chance to uprate the clutch too. . . .
Anymore brainstorming ideas?
STEVIE! small world!
I guessed as much as if my info is correct pork motors don't have over size pistons available, I'm guessing because the bores aren't bore out-able and then re-coatable or some what.
While I'm on about the bores it obvioulsy makes sense to replace the rings whilst I'm in there but what do i do about bore prep?
Back to the charger kit the yanks use a replacement afm kit swapping the oe flapper for a hotwire jobbie but if I were to use en emerald ecu i'll be junking this or ordering the bits I need from their kit without the afm, sound good? Boost is an completely new world for me so I have to ask! In thinking about it a map sensor like what the emerald uses seems to make more sense, please correct me if I'm wrong as I need to learn!
Ref the c/r what would be a good one to aim for? It needs to be future proof and allow further boost increases. I have upto 17psi available according to the yanks, anything more requires too large (!) a bottom pulley that simply won't fit in the space!
I guessed as much as if my info is correct pork motors don't have over size pistons available, I'm guessing because the bores aren't bore out-able and then re-coatable or some what.
While I'm on about the bores it obvioulsy makes sense to replace the rings whilst I'm in there but what do i do about bore prep?
Back to the charger kit the yanks use a replacement afm kit swapping the oe flapper for a hotwire jobbie but if I were to use en emerald ecu i'll be junking this or ordering the bits I need from their kit without the afm, sound good? Boost is an completely new world for me so I have to ask! In thinking about it a map sensor like what the emerald uses seems to make more sense, please correct me if I'm wrong as I need to learn!
Ref the c/r what would be a good one to aim for? It needs to be future proof and allow further boost increases. I have upto 17psi available according to the yanks, anything more requires too large (!) a bottom pulley that simply won't fit in the space!
No a stock 944 250hp turbo was £3000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Adding Nos or a charger was another £200 for me.
I did think about the turbo option but there was none out there with the trim adn colour I wanted plus they've all done 150k so I'd need to refurb the brakes, suspension etc etc which is what I've done to my 2.5 which only cost £800 to start with. I then went and bought a mint 924 with a mint black porsche logo'd interior for £200 which is now in mine. I LOVE it and is perfect other than lack of grunt which is kinda a good thing as i get to play and make stuff anf get them working which ticks another box, buying a turbo would be too easy but WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too expensive!
I did think about the turbo option but there was none out there with the trim adn colour I wanted plus they've all done 150k so I'd need to refurb the brakes, suspension etc etc which is what I've done to my 2.5 which only cost £800 to start with. I then went and bought a mint 924 with a mint black porsche logo'd interior for £200 which is now in mine. I LOVE it and is perfect other than lack of grunt which is kinda a good thing as i get to play and make stuff anf get them working which ticks another box, buying a turbo would be too easy but WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too expensive!
Well I've been offered a complete engine, loom, ecu etc etc a bolt in job for £2k.
It should in theory at least be a bolt in job with just some electrical component relocating and maybe jiggery pokery with the airbox and so on.
240 hp.
Its tempting! It'd also be a better place to start if I wanted to charge it that being more power made for the same amount of effort.
It should in theory at least be a bolt in job with just some electrical component relocating and maybe jiggery pokery with the airbox and so on.
240 hp.
Its tempting! It'd also be a better place to start if I wanted to charge it that being more power made for the same amount of effort.
Ah, errr too late! It already has cup 1 wheels, new logo interior, 968 rear 4 pots front boxster calipers and corresponding front and rear discs, koni shocks all round, lower+stiffer front springs, 968 rear beam plus other upgrades. May as well finish the job eh!
Ref the head I meant instead of the standard 2.5 n/a head.
Ref the head I meant instead of the standard 2.5 n/a head.
Edited by ihatesissycars on Thursday 22 November 23:17
nick_968 said:
You dont need to lower the comp to supercharge unless you are going for high boost. You will run into problems with the limitations of the standard MAF at higher than 7psi and will also need to get someone like Wayne Schofield to map the ECU for the SC. The point of using the NA 2.7 8v head is to match the waterways of the 3.0 block to an 8v head that allows you to bolt on the 951 intake and exhaust manifolds. This is done to save money of fab work and also to save replacing all the exhaust valves in the 16v head to deal with the extra heat. I cant understand why anyone would supercharge a 2.5 engine as you are limiting youself from the start. Still it will be a good learning experience. Also above a certain boost level the radiator will struggle to keep temps down and you will also need to look at decent intercooling especially if you stick to original comp ratios. This might seem like a cheap project but the cost will spiral......good luck!
Teh 2.5 motor seems to be the longest lasting and most durable of the I4 motors and with the least to go wrong or need expensive maintenance (variocam etc).I don't want to use the 2.7 head, I want the 2.5 turbo head with its ceramic coated exhaust ports and sodium filled valves. I also was interested to know if it will flow any better then an n/a head or not.
I'm buying a house soon so want cheaper running costs/repairs and after all the horror stories associtated with maintaining the 68 motor (more precisely its top end and when it goes wrong) I don't want to be in a position where I have the house and a 44 with an expensive engine needing repairs meaning long downtimes. If I blew up a 2.5 motor you can pick another complete engine for £100 and away you go again. The charger route also has the ability to give more boost later on should I be able to get the motor to take more.
I'm looking at the SFR kit from the states but minus any afm's and their piggyback ecu.
I'd then use either an emerald ecu or (if I'm feeling brave again) a megasquirt ecu which I have alot of previous experiance with. In using one of these I can ditch any afm's and the restriction to airflow they pose and use a map sensor plus they'll be better than any standard ecu with piggyback ecu. If I go for the emerald then Dave wlaker will map any ecu he supplies for £200+vat regardless of how long it takes him.
The only thing thats a pain is the standard c/r.
Some may think its not worthwhile doing this but its a challenge and should if all goes well yield good power and be quite unique.
I'll atleast be able to match the power of some higly tuned 2.5T's!
Well its makes sense to leave the c/r as it is and see how it turns out.
THe sfr kit with i/c makes 8 or so psi which witha 10.5.:1 c/r may be risky. I could go for the pullies they use for the non cooled kit they do making baout 5-6 psi but with an i/c.
Thanks for understanding! So many people go "get a 68" I can't afford one nor get insurance even reomtely resembling sensible so diy it is! Even with a stack of mods the 2.5 44 is cheap to insure!
THe sfr kit with i/c makes 8 or so psi which witha 10.5.:1 c/r may be risky. I could go for the pullies they use for the non cooled kit they do making baout 5-6 psi but with an i/c.
Thanks for understanding! So many people go "get a 68" I can't afford one nor get insurance even reomtely resembling sensible so diy it is! Even with a stack of mods the 2.5 44 is cheap to insure!
I;m cursed when it comes to car insurance. My last project, a capri with a 4.0 v8 (cam'd up, ported bv heads, full balance, headers, nitrous, itb's, mappable ecu, lsd axle, lowered, uprated dampers, brakes, interior and exterior mods and so on was £500 to insure fully comp, pretty good but my standard 944 was £500 too and add another £100 for the bits I've done so far and it was another approx £200 for the charger but to insure a standard 968 it was £3k if at all. I have no garage so that probably doesn't help.
Regards to not telling the insurers I seem to be getting alot of people suggest (on other forums) that I may be doing that and once again I will say that no I'm not interested in doing that nor will I be doing that nor will I ever be doing that so thats that cleared up then eh
Regards to not telling the insurers I seem to be getting alot of people suggest (on other forums) that I may be doing that and once again I will say that no I'm not interested in doing that nor will I be doing that nor will I ever be doing that so thats that cleared up then eh
Ho does this sound, I have now at home a mill and lathe plus a spare engine I can rig up on a stand. I have the skills to use the machinary although I'd take a while doing it but it'd cost me less, just time, materials and an Eaton M90 (good choice for a low blow 2.5 setup do you think??) possibly costing less than £5 - 600 if I get lucky!
I must confess to liking the idea taking this on as there's alot of room under the bonnet and would give me something to do in the shoite winter months!
I started doing something like this with an m112 with my v8 capri but space was sooooooo tight I couldn't be bothered but was miffed at my giving up so this could be a chance to redeem myself!
This would also free up money to get a stronger bottom end to take some more boost (Sorry Mike I will call soon!!)
I must confess to liking the idea taking this on as there's alot of room under the bonnet and would give me something to do in the shoite winter months!
I started doing something like this with an m112 with my v8 capri but space was sooooooo tight I couldn't be bothered but was miffed at my giving up so this could be a chance to redeem myself!
This would also free up money to get a stronger bottom end to take some more boost (Sorry Mike I will call soon!!)
Update for those that have contacted me.
I'm bidding on a Paxton SN93 centrifugal charger so hopefully I'll win that but in the meantime I'm setting up a spare block and bits I have ready to make up the bracketry for the blower.
If lose out on the paxton I've got my eye on an M90.
Watch this space!
I'm bidding on a Paxton SN93 centrifugal charger so hopefully I'll win that but in the meantime I'm setting up a spare block and bits I have ready to make up the bracketry for the blower.
If lose out on the paxton I've got my eye on an M90.
Watch this space!
Does anyone know of any good books ref all this?
I have a good but basic understanding of it all but I'd like to learn more about the tuning side of things as well as detonation and everything that goes with that.
I muddled thru with the v8 I tuned in my old capri but this is no doubt going to be alot more difficult.
I have a good but basic understanding of it all but I'd like to learn more about the tuning side of things as well as detonation and everything that goes with that.
I muddled thru with the v8 I tuned in my old capri but this is no doubt going to be alot more difficult.
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