Intercooler pipework size...
Discussion
What is the best size to use.
I've read a bit in "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell about keeping velocity down, but then heard higher velocity is good for response, as well as using a slightly larger post intercooler pipe size than the pre intercooler size.
Just for a diesel 306 (well two), intercoolers are 3" i/o, turbo's are 1.75" outlet, and the manifold intake is 2.3"
Tempted to go then for 2" for the first half > 3" into the cooler, and then 3" down to 2.25" for the second half, with a small bump up with silicone to the manifold intake.
Will all be mandrel bent stainless steel welded sections, and the odd samco for a bit of flex or join to turbo/intercooler etc.
Just not sure if there is any point in going bigger than 2" for the second half. The cars are running small GT15/K03's running to ~ 150-160bhp at 4000rpm.
The book above is pretty good but it reads as if even 2" might be theoretically overkill for my application already.
Just wanting to do the best thing really, rather than just use bigger pipes because they look better
Dave
I've read a bit in "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell about keeping velocity down, but then heard higher velocity is good for response, as well as using a slightly larger post intercooler pipe size than the pre intercooler size.
Just for a diesel 306 (well two), intercoolers are 3" i/o, turbo's are 1.75" outlet, and the manifold intake is 2.3"
Tempted to go then for 2" for the first half > 3" into the cooler, and then 3" down to 2.25" for the second half, with a small bump up with silicone to the manifold intake.
Will all be mandrel bent stainless steel welded sections, and the odd samco for a bit of flex or join to turbo/intercooler etc.
Just not sure if there is any point in going bigger than 2" for the second half. The cars are running small GT15/K03's running to ~ 150-160bhp at 4000rpm.
The book above is pretty good but it reads as if even 2" might be theoretically overkill for my application already.
Just wanting to do the best thing really, rather than just use bigger pipes because they look better
Dave
Yeah, we will just be buying loads of 2" stainless bits then welding them in, so it'll all be nice mandrel bends etc...
But yes, having a lip on the end of the parts we make is a good plan... I've seen alot of people just use high-strength Mikalor type clips, wheras I think even for 1.4bar boost a good jubilee clip should be ample with a lip to push up to...
Just finding somewhere to do that though. Unfortunately our brake pipe flaring tool is a tad too small for 2" stainless
Now, whats the best stainless to go for if your doing alot of welding? Any recommendations on spec, or what to avoid? (have no idea when it comes to stainless etc)
Dave
But yes, having a lip on the end of the parts we make is a good plan... I've seen alot of people just use high-strength Mikalor type clips, wheras I think even for 1.4bar boost a good jubilee clip should be ample with a lip to push up to...
Just finding somewhere to do that though. Unfortunately our brake pipe flaring tool is a tad too small for 2" stainless
Now, whats the best stainless to go for if your doing alot of welding? Any recommendations on spec, or what to avoid? (have no idea when it comes to stainless etc)
Dave
Ah all sound advice, thanks.
Yep, thought of running a weld bead at the end of the pipe just to give the clips something to run up against... we are running about 22psi.
I have a few friends with the same car running no beading but they opt for heavy duty Mikalor type clips, but I'd prefer to save money and use good jubilee's and have a bead!
Dave
Yep, thought of running a weld bead at the end of the pipe just to give the clips something to run up against... we are running about 22psi.
I have a few friends with the same car running no beading but they opt for heavy duty Mikalor type clips, but I'd prefer to save money and use good jubilee's and have a bead!
Dave
Ally just seems less strong, a friend used easyweld and although his welds were not perfect they snapped/opened up (probably due to lack of decent movement afforded by silicone connections?)
Stainless for us is easy to weld with the mig and the right wire, it looks nice and shiny, and it's no doubt stronger.
Gone for a front mounted setup now. Copying my friends setup basically, got the intercooler bought and all that.
Got everything else sorted, just need to get this put in and upload my latest revision of the mapping I've been working on
150bhp and 255lbft is the initial target, but pushing a little just to find the limits is the next step. Need to buy an AFR and EGT sensor/gauge and some oil temp monitoring gear.
Dave
Stainless for us is easy to weld with the mig and the right wire, it looks nice and shiny, and it's no doubt stronger.
Gone for a front mounted setup now. Copying my friends setup basically, got the intercooler bought and all that.
Got everything else sorted, just need to get this put in and upload my latest revision of the mapping I've been working on
150bhp and 255lbft is the initial target, but pushing a little just to find the limits is the next step. Need to buy an AFR and EGT sensor/gauge and some oil temp monitoring gear.
Dave
Pics from friends
Pretty big, fits about perfectly for our application, there may be better coolers out there but for ~ £110 it's spot on for what it is. Performance seems acceptable but being sad I want to get a differential pressure gauge and measure the pressure drop and temp drops
Dave
Pretty big, fits about perfectly for our application, there may be better coolers out there but for ~ £110 it's spot on for what it is. Performance seems acceptable but being sad I want to get a differential pressure gauge and measure the pressure drop and temp drops
Dave
Right, might not bother worrying about wideband EFR then, and just watch smoke and temps mainly...
Can you recommend a good EGT gauge at all? Would like something that maybe comes with software or can run with software so I can log the data, since I'm logging lots through OBD and PCMScan already, and it'd be nice to have it all tally up in Excel afterwards
Dave
Can you recommend a good EGT gauge at all? Would like something that maybe comes with software or can run with software so I can log the data, since I'm logging lots through OBD and PCMScan already, and it'd be nice to have it all tally up in Excel afterwards
Dave
Haha, yeah, I've not seen the intercooler yet, my brother has the pair (one for a 405 Mi16 > 1.9Td conversion and trying to get 140-150bhp 
)
However, he did note the same concern, so had a look inside. There is a plate in there, welded to the end-tank body, but because of the odd number of tubes one side has one more than the other apparently, and the seal to the intercooler end plate isn't welded, but it's a pushed up tight fit.
Soooo, we are tempted to put the thicker core first (hot side), and into the air flow, and the thinner side up further behind the bumper (not sure if thats the ideal way around but as the air shrinks as it cools it makes sense)
I'm not sure what the pressure issue might be with the non-welded join, I'm sure it's not a massive issue though, got to be easier for air to go down and round than wait and try get through a tiny gap
Thanks for the link Stevieturbo, those EGT parts look like a damn good price. So whats the best plan for those? I've heard pre and post turbo is a good plan as you can see the heat the turbo is taking in and when it reaches that limit of not letting more heat out and just absorbing it... Can probably stuff a probe in where the EGR normally is, and then have another in the downpipe...
Will take a few more pics of the cooler this weekend, in detail around the intake end tank, for anyone who is interested
Dave
)However, he did note the same concern, so had a look inside. There is a plate in there, welded to the end-tank body, but because of the odd number of tubes one side has one more than the other apparently, and the seal to the intercooler end plate isn't welded, but it's a pushed up tight fit.
Soooo, we are tempted to put the thicker core first (hot side), and into the air flow, and the thinner side up further behind the bumper (not sure if thats the ideal way around but as the air shrinks as it cools it makes sense)
I'm not sure what the pressure issue might be with the non-welded join, I'm sure it's not a massive issue though, got to be easier for air to go down and round than wait and try get through a tiny gap
Thanks for the link Stevieturbo, those EGT parts look like a damn good price. So whats the best plan for those? I've heard pre and post turbo is a good plan as you can see the heat the turbo is taking in and when it reaches that limit of not letting more heat out and just absorbing it... Can probably stuff a probe in where the EGR normally is, and then have another in the downpipe...
Will take a few more pics of the cooler this weekend, in detail around the intake end tank, for anyone who is interested
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 18th April 09:33
Well we had some quotes for a custom made intercooler to the right size that were quite scary. Just the cores seemed silly expensive.
These intercoolers are a bargain really, so even with a bit of work I'm sure it could be improved.
One big improvement would be 2" exits rather than 3", saving money on expensive silicone bend reducers.
Hey ho, still gonna be cheap and effective. In the interests of intercooler performance analysis I intend to record boost and temp drop though, for reference for others
Problem now is my list of sensors wanted is growing
Dave
These intercoolers are a bargain really, so even with a bit of work I'm sure it could be improved.
One big improvement would be 2" exits rather than 3", saving money on expensive silicone bend reducers.
Hey ho, still gonna be cheap and effective. In the interests of intercooler performance analysis I intend to record boost and temp drop though, for reference for others
Problem now is my list of sensors wanted is growing
Dave
stevieturbo said:
Just hope the sensor doesnt break
Thats been my worry Will stick the gauge in via the EGR bit I think, I don't mind butchering that.
I think the temps will be ok, just want to see what it is at as a reference point really.
Just need an oil temp too, just to see what that will run at, with the turbo working fairly hard it'll probably dump a fair bit of heat into the oil...
Dave
I got a few compressor maps for the GT15 and K03 used on my car, and the demand curves appear to be roughly what remapped 1.8T Golf's are running from their K03's when going from 150 > 190bhp or so... and they run petrol temp EGT's I suppose, and seem to be fairly reliable
So do you think oil temperature is worth monitoring? I know that some tuners will offer 150bhp remaps for the HDi110, which is almost identical to the HDi90, and they don't appear to be blowing up because of hot oil
I'm also sure the 2.2 HDi uses the same block with a new crank, and that appears to operate with a remap to 175bhp straight off, so assuming the standard donut engine coolant heat exchanger under the filter is doing a good enough job on these engines
Dave
So do you think oil temperature is worth monitoring? I know that some tuners will offer 150bhp remaps for the HDi110, which is almost identical to the HDi90, and they don't appear to be blowing up because of hot oil
I'm also sure the 2.2 HDi uses the same block with a new crank, and that appears to operate with a remap to 175bhp straight off, so assuming the standard donut engine coolant heat exchanger under the filter is doing a good enough job on these engines
Dave
How do these tractors used for competition pulling go on then, with their solid black stacks of smoke?
I'm guessing they run water or something to cool it right down, so althought it's blowing black the EGT might actually be quite low??
Can't wait to go see them this year at Pickering
Dave
I'm guessing they run water or something to cool it right down, so althought it's blowing black the EGT might actually be quite low??
Can't wait to go see them this year at Pickering
Dave
I'm not sure, I was having a good nosey on the Peugeot servicebox last night at the parts, so may have to have a look to see if the 2.2 fits
In theory it's the same block (wrt to mountings), just the gearbox might be different, so I'd have to get the gearbox, and that'd mean hydraulic clutch (not a biggie), and maybe exhaust issues where it joins up and goes down.
Either way, I'm sure it'd all go in, next job is just finding one as they seem relatively rare.
Same ECU as mine, maps look same inside, so it'd just be swapping immobiliser code over onto new ECU, loom should be very very similar if not the same
Still would need an intercooler though, so at least the £300 ish fitting it all in at the front with slimline fans and pipes etc won't be wasted if I do go to the 2.2 route in the future
Anyway, got the intercooler. This one is a tad different inside the end tank. It's clearly got a seperator flap between the connection pipes...
Only problem is on this one, that the flap meets dead down the middle of a core entry point. Now, there are loads more to go at (about 8 each side), but the other landed nicely between two core intakes and looked fairly tight up, with maybe 8 one side, 9 the other.
Am I likely to suffer any nasty flow issues with that the way it is, or will air just tend to stagnate around that pipe... afterall, it's right at the edge of the flap anyway so air flow to that one wouldn't be huge anyway... I could always poke an ally welding rod in there and put a bead down, but not sure it's worth it... they were not the most expensive intercoolers so wasn't expecting a beauty, but I think it'll do it's job
Main thing is it's fairly heavy so loads of thermal capacity, and my friend is running upto 150bhp happily so can't be too bad.
Dave
In theory it's the same block (wrt to mountings), just the gearbox might be different, so I'd have to get the gearbox, and that'd mean hydraulic clutch (not a biggie), and maybe exhaust issues where it joins up and goes down.
Either way, I'm sure it'd all go in, next job is just finding one as they seem relatively rare.
Same ECU as mine, maps look same inside, so it'd just be swapping immobiliser code over onto new ECU, loom should be very very similar if not the same
Still would need an intercooler though, so at least the £300 ish fitting it all in at the front with slimline fans and pipes etc won't be wasted if I do go to the 2.2 route in the future
Anyway, got the intercooler. This one is a tad different inside the end tank. It's clearly got a seperator flap between the connection pipes...
Only problem is on this one, that the flap meets dead down the middle of a core entry point. Now, there are loads more to go at (about 8 each side), but the other landed nicely between two core intakes and looked fairly tight up, with maybe 8 one side, 9 the other.
Am I likely to suffer any nasty flow issues with that the way it is, or will air just tend to stagnate around that pipe... afterall, it's right at the edge of the flap anyway so air flow to that one wouldn't be huge anyway... I could always poke an ally welding rod in there and put a bead down, but not sure it's worth it... they were not the most expensive intercoolers so wasn't expecting a beauty, but I think it'll do it's job
Main thing is it's fairly heavy so loads of thermal capacity, and my friend is running upto 150bhp happily so can't be too bad.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 21st April 09:27
The 2.2 uses an early VNT (rather than vanes, it occludes the turbine wheel with a collar that is pushed forward and back along the axis of the turbine)
It's a much better unit though in practice than what is on the 2.0 HDi. The fact it flows for 136bhp and 2.2 litres standard suggests it's potential, and the VNT gives it much better low-end performance.
I think it's a simple fit, just trying to figure out if they did an 8v flavour, or 16v only... I've seen 16v ones, but ideally I'd want an 8v one because it'd almost certainly fit in no problems at all, and I'm sure they did an 8v flavour one in the 406's...
Either way, if I hit 160bhp and 250lbft with what I have, I can't think the car will be wanting with it's relatively short gearing and low weight
That said, you can never have enough, but at the same time I don't want to blow loads of money and time getting another 20bhp... and anything more than that is just silly in a fwd imho. Gonna start munching CV joints, P bushes lasting 5000 miles, tyres lasting about 5000 miles, engine mounts ripping off
I dunno, might be fun, but a big step up in costs maybe?
I *think* the cooler will be ok. Had another look. At one side the gap is very small into that row on the cooler. My plan is to put a bead of araldyte down that side (hopefully it'll not break up or fail due to the temp fluctuations), and then it'll force it down the existing rows, and then the partly occluded row will be used for the return flow.
So question is, will araldyte suffice? Maybe some localised heating of the part via the intake hole and apply some ally welding rod?
It might however be totally fine, I can't see a small leak being a huge issue when the CFM rises it's gonna go the way it is intended to
We have two intercoolers anyway, the other is better than this one wrt to that issue. It's for a 405 Td project car (Mi16 > 1.9 Td), so there is clearly some variability in the finish of the product.
Dave
It's a much better unit though in practice than what is on the 2.0 HDi. The fact it flows for 136bhp and 2.2 litres standard suggests it's potential, and the VNT gives it much better low-end performance.
I think it's a simple fit, just trying to figure out if they did an 8v flavour, or 16v only... I've seen 16v ones, but ideally I'd want an 8v one because it'd almost certainly fit in no problems at all, and I'm sure they did an 8v flavour one in the 406's...
Either way, if I hit 160bhp and 250lbft with what I have, I can't think the car will be wanting with it's relatively short gearing and low weight
That said, you can never have enough, but at the same time I don't want to blow loads of money and time getting another 20bhp... and anything more than that is just silly in a fwd imho. Gonna start munching CV joints, P bushes lasting 5000 miles, tyres lasting about 5000 miles, engine mounts ripping off
I dunno, might be fun, but a big step up in costs maybe?
I *think* the cooler will be ok. Had another look. At one side the gap is very small into that row on the cooler. My plan is to put a bead of araldyte down that side (hopefully it'll not break up or fail due to the temp fluctuations), and then it'll force it down the existing rows, and then the partly occluded row will be used for the return flow.
So question is, will araldyte suffice? Maybe some localised heating of the part via the intake hole and apply some ally welding rod?
It might however be totally fine, I can't see a small leak being a huge issue when the CFM rises it's gonna go the way it is intended to
We have two intercoolers anyway, the other is better than this one wrt to that issue. It's for a 405 Td project car (Mi16 > 1.9 Td), so there is clearly some variability in the finish of the product.
Dave
Not too sure really, it's quite cramped behind the engine on a 306 HDi.
Another issue is controlling the VNT. My ECU software doesn't have VNT support, so the best I could achieve is having the VNT operated using manifold boost, which is an ok half way house
I think the 2.2 HDi turbo would be the best bet, it's early VNT, has Peugeot manifold > head fitment (pretty sure), and the exhaust downpipe location/angle has to be damn close...
First step is getting this one intercooled and see where I can get it.
Did some testing last night and my current turbo is good for hitting peak torque from about 1900rpm which really isn't bad at all, I think with the intercooler and higher EGT I might be able to get it sooner still (maybe 1700rpm)
My friends is already making 7psi at 1300rpm which I think is damn good already, so not too sure on the out and out benefit of VNT. Of course it's main advantage is running a turbine for high power, but with smaller turbine low-speed response, but since the turbo is good for about 150-160bhp and that being my intial target and where the stock injectors run out of puff, it seems ok to just stick with what I have.... for now
Next job might be a 2.2 HDi VNT, but will probably buy a HDi with a broken engine to do that to first, make sure it all works
Dave
Another issue is controlling the VNT. My ECU software doesn't have VNT support, so the best I could achieve is having the VNT operated using manifold boost, which is an ok half way house
I think the 2.2 HDi turbo would be the best bet, it's early VNT, has Peugeot manifold > head fitment (pretty sure), and the exhaust downpipe location/angle has to be damn close...
First step is getting this one intercooled and see where I can get it.
Did some testing last night and my current turbo is good for hitting peak torque from about 1900rpm which really isn't bad at all, I think with the intercooler and higher EGT I might be able to get it sooner still (maybe 1700rpm)
My friends is already making 7psi at 1300rpm which I think is damn good already, so not too sure on the out and out benefit of VNT. Of course it's main advantage is running a turbine for high power, but with smaller turbine low-speed response, but since the turbo is good for about 150-160bhp and that being my intial target and where the stock injectors run out of puff, it seems ok to just stick with what I have.... for now
Next job might be a 2.2 HDi VNT, but will probably buy a HDi with a broken engine to do that to first, make sure it all works
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 24th April 14:21
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