A U T O M A T I C ?
Discussion
I would suggest that a 500bhp Monaro is a far more focusing driving tool than a comparative M5/M6 and for a lot less money.
Lots of technology and excellent engineering, but a somewhat sanitised driving experience for those who want to go very fast and not have to think about how to do it as the car is helping them to a fair degree.
Auto boxes and driver aids distance driver from communicating with the car.
What would i rather have, A simple! V8 muscle car, not a tech tour de force.
Lots of technology and excellent engineering, but a somewhat sanitised driving experience for those who want to go very fast and not have to think about how to do it as the car is helping them to a fair degree.
Auto boxes and driver aids distance driver from communicating with the car.
What would i rather have, A simple! V8 muscle car, not a tech tour de force.
How do you drift an auto? You keep your boot in. See as many American car pursuit scenes as you care to view. Using the auto as a manual is not a problem.
Frankly, I find it laughable when people complain about intrusive driver aids. Most intrude when you're way past the limits of your own capability which should only ever be on a track, not a public road. If so, a Monaro is hardly the weapon of choice.
I think a lot of people overestimate their driving skills and given the choice of stuffing my Z06 into a wall or active handling stepping in to correct my misconception that I might be the world's greatest driver, I'll take the latter. There is compelling evidence that electronic stability control has been one of the single most important factors in reducing accidents.
On the Z28, I have TC which I generally turn off. The Z06 has a facility to deactivate or remove the "nannying" aids and frankly, with it's ability to spit the car sideways, I haven't really felt it necessary to pretend I'm a hero....needlessly....just in case it turns out I'm not.
Frankly, I find it laughable when people complain about intrusive driver aids. Most intrude when you're way past the limits of your own capability which should only ever be on a track, not a public road. If so, a Monaro is hardly the weapon of choice.
I think a lot of people overestimate their driving skills and given the choice of stuffing my Z06 into a wall or active handling stepping in to correct my misconception that I might be the world's greatest driver, I'll take the latter. There is compelling evidence that electronic stability control has been one of the single most important factors in reducing accidents.
On the Z28, I have TC which I generally turn off. The Z06 has a facility to deactivate or remove the "nannying" aids and frankly, with it's ability to spit the car sideways, I haven't really felt it necessary to pretend I'm a hero....needlessly....just in case it turns out I'm not.
Good points made but from my experience drivers will happily drive to the limit sometimes unaware of just how close they are to physical limit which gives them an armchair perspective of hard driving – if the car driven is more basic without driver aids it a much more frightening experience and in fact a slower drive as I for one would be very reluctant to drive at the ragged end on public roads but more rewarding as it requires more input from the driver.
What I am trying to say is that driving is more enjoyable without technical wizardry on board, well demonstrated by the TVR.
What I am trying to say is that driving is more enjoyable without technical wizardry on board, well demonstrated by the TVR.
I've never driven a TVR but a friend has one, albeit an old Griffith, which is not a better car for not having any aids.
One of the tests I have is the EVO one where they put a Tuscan S vs several other cars including a Z06, NSX, Carrera and M Coupe and the Tuscan was the raw thing and described as "a fight", "horribly unsettled under hard braking", "ragged" and "grappling for directional stability". It concluded that the chassis was all over the place so "going fast requires a leap of faith" and the lesser powered "nannying" Porsche could stay with it easily. So the question is do you want to fight your car all the time or harmnise with it and let it help you enjoy the experience?
One of the tests I have is the EVO one where they put a Tuscan S vs several other cars including a Z06, NSX, Carrera and M Coupe and the Tuscan was the raw thing and described as "a fight", "horribly unsettled under hard braking", "ragged" and "grappling for directional stability". It concluded that the chassis was all over the place so "going fast requires a leap of faith" and the lesser powered "nannying" Porsche could stay with it easily. So the question is do you want to fight your car all the time or harmnise with it and let it help you enjoy the experience?
Test drove two C5 'vettes with GM 4-speed automatic gearbox and found them merely OK. Tried one with a manual and it was a case of "Where do I sign on the order form?". Tried the Mercedes A-Class semi-auto a few years ago and it seemed pretty good though the car was lacking a little power !!!
Driven 3 & 4-speed autos in rental cars and found them hideous, no doubt because they were low-budget POSs anyway. Would like to try the new 7-speed autos though. My biggest problem with autos is that they change gear when they want to, not when you want them to despite trying to encourage them through intelligent use of the throttle pedal. Only way around that is semi-autos as far as I can see. I do accept that autos can change gear faster than manuals though - takes me 0.3 seconds to change gear if I really push it so if an auto can change in 0.1 seconds its a big saving.
Driven 3 & 4-speed autos in rental cars and found them hideous, no doubt because they were low-budget POSs anyway. Would like to try the new 7-speed autos though. My biggest problem with autos is that they change gear when they want to, not when you want them to despite trying to encourage them through intelligent use of the throttle pedal. Only way around that is semi-autos as far as I can see. I do accept that autos can change gear faster than manuals though - takes me 0.3 seconds to change gear if I really push it so if an auto can change in 0.1 seconds its a big saving.
The AMG supercharged engines have too much Torque for the new 7 speed box, so still use the 5 speeder until it can be strengthend.
I like both autos & manuals, did 300 miles in the HSV today, lots of which was in slow traffic, which would have been much nicer in an auto. But the 20 or so miles on A & B roads with only light traffic was great with the manual.
If I only had one car, then I would choose a manual provided that the car had good handling. Wouldn't want a manual SUV for example.
My Jensen CV8 has a 3 speed Torqueflite box which is a fantastic box and great fun to drive, perfectly suiting the car.
I like both autos & manuals, did 300 miles in the HSV today, lots of which was in slow traffic, which would have been much nicer in an auto. But the 20 or so miles on A & B roads with only light traffic was great with the manual.
If I only had one car, then I would choose a manual provided that the car had good handling. Wouldn't want a manual SUV for example.
My Jensen CV8 has a 3 speed Torqueflite box which is a fantastic box and great fun to drive, perfectly suiting the car.
caspy said:
A nicely tuned LS1. Blip on the down change, hold lower gear and hear the overun pop pop pop crack pop. Auto wouldn't allow the full aural pleasure that is the V8.
IMHO
There are some gross misapprehensions about autos here. Try an unsilenced (bar the cats)LS1 in a Z28 which can be pushed down into 3rd and second as you slow. The popping is a natural by-product. The full-bore wail is sufficient to make anyone appreciate the "aural pleasure", inside or out. Of all the pros and cons of auto vs manual, this really has no merit.
Lots of valid comments for both sides.
From what I read, the VW/AUDI DSG box seems to be as near as you can get to being the "best of both worlds". Look forward to driving one.
I think it really depends on personal preference, but also very much on the type of car. An auto Elise would be as hideous as a manual S class.
A Holden Monaro would work well with a good autobox or DSG, but a more focused HSV GTO would probably be more enjoyable with a manual box.
>> Edited by A57 HSV on Friday 15th April 14:51
From what I read, the VW/AUDI DSG box seems to be as near as you can get to being the "best of both worlds". Look forward to driving one.
I think it really depends on personal preference, but also very much on the type of car. An auto Elise would be as hideous as a manual S class.
A Holden Monaro would work well with a good autobox or DSG, but a more focused HSV GTO would probably be more enjoyable with a manual box.
>> Edited by A57 HSV on Friday 15th April 14:51
I could drift my Senator 24v. OK, after any prolonged drift it would change up and spoil the fun, but sideways exits from roundabouts were entirely possible. And a Tiptronic box can hold any gear you want and be driven like a manual.
I'd go for a Monaro with auto, why not? You don't always wany to be stirring the box.
I'd go for a Monaro with auto, why not? You don't always wany to be stirring the box.
Very true, what you say there.
An automatic Monaro would be a good application.
I am sure I would enjoy both 'boxes, in different ways.
Quick changes DO matter, by the way. Why?
Everyone talks about 0-60 and 0-100, as the major benchmarks of a performance car, therefore every tenth of a second matters and if a modern auto. change can save half a second to 100, by quicker shifts, it will be like having another 50bhp, in effect.
A couple of years ago, in California, I went to a street drag-race event (middle of nowhere, 30 fast V8s and a few small screamers, too; illegal, but never mind) and the quickest 3 cars on the day were ALL automatic !
A Corvette with 502ci, a Dodge Dart (really) with 440ci and a 'small' 350ci Camaro, 'built-to-the-hilt', which spun to 7500rpm !
An automatic Monaro would be a good application.
I am sure I would enjoy both 'boxes, in different ways.
Quick changes DO matter, by the way. Why?
Everyone talks about 0-60 and 0-100, as the major benchmarks of a performance car, therefore every tenth of a second matters and if a modern auto. change can save half a second to 100, by quicker shifts, it will be like having another 50bhp, in effect.
A couple of years ago, in California, I went to a street drag-race event (middle of nowhere, 30 fast V8s and a few small screamers, too; illegal, but never mind) and the quickest 3 cars on the day were ALL automatic !
A Corvette with 502ci, a Dodge Dart (really) with 440ci and a 'small' 350ci Camaro, 'built-to-the-hilt', which spun to 7500rpm !
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